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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: Silken Threads Balance - Skills rss

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Amish Cow

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Lets look at these sweet new class skills Morthai has come up with! I'll start with the Grave Robber and add in some more analysis for the other Skills after Thanksgiving Happy Turkey Day!

All my information is pulled from this thread:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/870319/the-silken-threads-su...

Grave Robber (GR) - Scout
I love the idea of a character who's special quirks are to gain the party gold. Its a nice twist to the thief. Lets look at the cards

0 pts - Looter - kill an adjacent monster, get +5 or +10 gold (minion, master). Looking at PBF Campaign V Fat Goblin Encounter II, the heros killed 14 minion, 5 master, and 1 lieutenant giving a total of 120 extra gold (if the GR got all final hits, which is unlikely. I would add text for how much gold a lieutenant gives. Maybe 25?

1 pt - Staggering Blow - cost 1 fat, action, attack with 2 handed melee to gain +1 heart and knockback. This seems like a VERY powerful skill for only costing 1 skill point and only 1 fatigue. Maybe its just me, but being able to move the OL's monsters is one of the most valuable abilities in the game. To have this skill after the Intro quest is killer.

1pt - Pressing Times - costs 0 fat, gain +1 speed, when you exhaust Looter, Corpse Connoisseur or Body Snatcher, you may exhaust this card to move half your speed. An observation: all the other "gain +1" skill cards are worth 2 skill points, and most seem to be secondary skills. Why would this be only 1?

1pt - Corpse Connoisseur - costs 2 fat, after killing an adjacent master monster, exhaust to test awareness. Pass: search card. Fail: +10 gold. I like it, very clever! Scouts in general have high awareness, and even if you fail you get some $$. I would change the text to include lieutenant?

2pt - Body Snatcher - costs 1 fat, after killing minion monster, exhaust to gain +2heart, +2fat. Spending only 1 fatigue to regain 4 health/stam is pretty steep. Especially since it doesnt require an action. Prayer of healing, the game's main healing spell costs 1fat and only recovers between 1-3 health and requires a three skill point ability to add fatigue. True, Body Snatcher only applies to yourself. I would still tone it down as a self heal, especially since minion monsters are potentially dirt cheap to kill.

2pt - Sense Pursuer - costs 2 fat, gain +1 awareness. when a monster moves adjacent to you, exhaust card to remove yourself from the map. At start of your next turn, return. I love the thematics of this card! Grave Robber senses someone is coming (partially due to his increased awareness)... so hides in the bush. Perfect!

2pt - Dig Trench - costs 1 fat, exhaust to place a hero token in your space. You and adjacent heros gain an additional Grey defence die. I like that this card is a 2 point skill, because it is pretty valuable. I think it should cost an action, both thematically, and for balance. It takes time (a lot of time, i'd imagine) to dig a trench. Secondly, adding a grey defense die is HUGE. It essentially adds on average 1.3 shields to your defense. If your group is traveling in... well... a group... this ability is giving everyone chain mail for the cost of 1 fatigue.

3pt - Bludgeon to Death - costs 1 fat, exhaust card after attacking a monster and not killing it to attack monster again. Similar to Quick Casting, but does not require a specific weapon (rune), costs 1 fatigue less, and you cannot exhaust if you actually killed the monster. I would limit to melee weapons (can you be bludgeon'd by an arrow?).

3pt - Bury Alive - costs 1 fat, Action: exhaust card to remove adjacent minion monster with 4 or less health from the map. YES! Such a great idea... and fits the grave robber theme. I'm on the fence whether "3 health" would be better... but we'll have to see what play testing reveals.

Overall:

3 cards for attacking (7 skill pts total)
3 cards for defense/healing (6 skill pts total)
2 cards to gain gold (1 skill pt total)
1 card for movement/speed (1 skill pt total)

Given the skill point distributions, it looks like the intent is to have the GR specialize in either attacking or defending (or a mix), and the +gold is more of a secondary skill set. Unlike the Thief who has 3 cards related to searching totaling to a 4 skill point investment. Another gripe I have is both 3-point skill cards are for attacking, and all three 2-point skill cards are about defense/heal. It might be nice to have more variety at the different levels. Overall though, well done.




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Morthai Saichor
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amishcow wrote:

0 pts - Looter - kill an adjacent monster, get +5 or +10 gold (minion, master). Looking at PBF Campaign V Fat Goblin Encounter II, the heros killed 14 minion, 5 master, and 1 lieutenant giving a total of 120 extra gold (if the GR got all final hits, which is unlikely. I would add text for how much gold a lieutenant gives. Maybe 25?

never thought about lieutenants yet - haha

amishcow wrote:

1 pt - Staggering Blow - cost 1 fat, action, attack with 2 handed melee to gain +1 heart and knockback. This seems like a VERY powerful skill for only costing 1 skill point and only 1 fatigue. Maybe its just me, but being able to move the OL's monsters is one of the most valuable abilities in the game. To have this skill after the Intro quest is killer.

hm. as an dedicated ol I had never problems with knockback or similar effects on my monsters but you might be right and it should be switched with a 2XP skill.

amishcow wrote:

1pt - Pressing Times - costs 0 fat, gain +1 speed, when you exhaust Looter, Corpse Connoisseur or Body Snatcher, you may exhaust this card to move half your speed. An observation: all the other "gain +1" skill cards are worth 2 skill points, and most seem to be secondary skills. Why would this be only 1?

Why 1XP? simple because speed is not an test attribute, so far I have seen health (brute), fatigue (some not yet published skill), Defense die (many skills) mostly costed 1XP meanwhile test attributes cost 2.

amishcow wrote:

1pt - Corpse Connoisseur - costs 2 fat, after killing an adjacent master monster, exhaust to test awareness. Pass: search card. Fail: +10 gold. I like it, very clever! Scouts in general have high awareness, and even if you fail you get some $$. I would change the text to include lieutenant?

yep will do.

amishcow wrote:

2pt - Body Snatcher - costs 1 fat, after killing minion monster, exhaust to gain +2heart, +2fat. Spending only 1 fatigue to regain 4 health/stam is pretty steep. Especially since it doesnt require an action. Prayer of healing, the game's main healing spell costs 1fat and only recovers between 1-3 health and requires a three skill point ability to add fatigue. True, Body Snatcher only applies to yourself. I would still tone it down as a self heal, especially since minion monsters are potentially dirt cheap to kill.

If i tone it down to selfheal (maybe 3) i would switch it with staggering blow XP wise.

amishcow wrote:

2pt - Dig Trench - costs 1 fat, exhaust to place a hero token in your space. You and adjacent heros gain an additional Grey defence die. I like that this card is a 2 point skill, because it is pretty valuable. I think it should cost an action, both thematically, and for balance. It takes time (a lot of time, i'd imagine) to dig a trench. Secondly, adding a grey defense die is HUGE. It essentially adds on average 1.3 shields to your defense. If your group is traveling in... well... a group... this ability is giving everyone chain mail for the cost of 1 fatigue.

hmm stoneskin does give for 0XP and 1 fatigue a free chain mail. If you say moving monsters is powerfull than i have to add moving heroes also! dig trench need you to be adjacent to the token - i would like to test it without an action and see if it is too strong or not. moving as a group rarely happens.

amishcow wrote:

3pt - Bludgeon to Death - costs 1 fat, exhaust card after attacking a monster and not killing it to attack monster again. Similar to Quick Casting, but does not require a specific weapon (rune), costs 1 fatigue less, and you cannot exhaust if you actually killed the monster. I would limit to melee weapons (can you be bludgeon'd by an arrow?).

yep melee weapons it should be.

amishcow wrote:

Overall:
3 cards for attacking (7 skill pts total)
3 cards for defense/healing (6 skill pts total)
2 cards to gain gold (1 skill pt total)
1 card for movement/speed (1 skill pt total)

Given the skill point distributions, it looks like the intent is to have the GR specialize in either attacking or defending (or a mix), and the +gold is more of a secondary skill set. Unlike the Thief who has 3 cards related to searching totaling to a 4 skill point investment. Another gripe I have is both 3-point skill cards are for attacking, and all three 2-point skill cards are about defense/heal. It might be nice to have more variety at the different levels. Overall though, well done.

I would say corpse connoisseur is also dedicated to gold. Pressing times is a supportive skill not an attacking skill. My idea was to bring a scout concept that actually fights instead of only running. He can get bonuses for killing stuff.
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Morthai Saichor
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Graverobber reworked.






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Amish Cow

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I like the changes Morthai. I also started following the Experimental PBF to see what thoughts/changes the players are suggesting.

Outlaw
0 pt - Onslaught - costs 1fat - after performing an attack, exhaust to move your speed and attack again with another weapon, you are stunned after. This ability grants an additional attack for the price of 1 fatigue and being stunned the next round. So in 2 rounds you'll have performed an attack, move your speed, attack, remove stun, Action 4. This ability seems most useful if you need to kill a monster that turn. Looks neat.

1 pt - Devious Aim - costs 2fat - Action: perform an attack with blade or exotic to gain +1heart and Surge:Immobilize Cool.

1pt - Trapper - costs 1fat - exhaust to place a hero token in adjacent space. Monster entering the space is stunned. A very creative skill that fits the class well. Is there a limit to how many traps can be on the board at once? I'm curious how a hero could abuse this power if more than one trap can be set.

1 pt - Quick Dodge - after rolling defense die, exhaust to force attacker to reroll 1 power die Clarify if the hero gets to choose the attack die or the OL gets to choose.

2 pt - Tireless - Might +1, can exhaust this card instead of another skill card I'm assuming the character still suffers the fatigue on the original card? I like it.

2 pt - Cleave - costs 1fat, exhaust when attacking with blade weapon, attack hits adjacent monsters to you and adjacent monsters to the target. If I'm reading this correctly the attack affects adjacent monsters, and all monsters adjacent to the target? This seems like a very powerful card. Whirlwind (berserker) does nearly identical the same thing as the first part of this skill, and also costs 2xp and 1 fatigue. But this card also grants blast (But no friendly fire). This will seriously blow a hole through any OL defense. Unless of course, I'm reading it wrong.

2 pt? Barbed Ammunition - costs 1 fat - Exhaust when attacking with exotic weapon. gains Disease and Surge: Pierce 2 Morthai, please add the 2pt skill cost to the top right of the card.

3 pt - Thrust Aside - costs 1fat - Exhaust during your turn to move each adjacent monster in to an adjacent empty space. Please clarify: move the monster to a space adjacent to it, or adjacent to you?

3 pt - No Mercy - if your attack brings a monster within 2 wounds of total health, kill the monster. Am I reading this correctly? Similar to Grave Robber's Bury alive, but activates at the end of an attack if you juuuuust didnt kill him. This sounds great for heros! I find it very frustrating when a monster lives with 1hp left. I might make it an exhaust.

In general this class looks quite fun to play. The Outlaw is part damage dealer, part support class with his traps/immobilizing and moving monsters. A general comment: I do not have the other class' skill cards in front of me but I think most of the "while performing an attack" are Actions, and not exhausts. I'll double check when I return from the Thanksgiving break, but if you want to be consistent, you might want to change the text to actions. Of course this would make Tireless much weaker, so I see where you're coming from.

If cleave gets nerfed a little (or if i'm reading it incorrectly), I think you did a great job with this class!
 
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Morthai Saichor
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Trapper don't has a limit how many traps - it interacts even with tireless so you can activate it twice.

Tireless: Yes you have to suffer the fatigue

Cleave:

attack hits adjacent monsters to you and adjacent monsters to the target

(the wording is a bit off here O.o)

the monster additionally hit must be adjacent to you and the monster you initially hit. It is like an arc attack

.............You
Monster Monster Monster
...hit......target......hit
 
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Amish Cow

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Morthai wrote:
Cleave:

attack hits adjacent monsters to you and adjacent monsters to the target

(the wording is a bit off here O.o)

the monster additionally hit must be adjacent to you and the monster you initially hit. It is like an arc attack

.............You
Monster Monster Monster
...hit......target......hit


Ah, that makes sense!
 
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Triu Greykith
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Morthai wrote:
Cleave:

attack hits adjacent monsters to you and adjacent monsters to the target

(the wording is a bit off here O.o)

the monster additionally hit must be adjacent to you and the monster you initially hit. It is like an arc attack

You could hit 5 figures, targeting the master in the middle (C5) ... more likely with something like kobolds ...

 
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Morthai Saichor
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Triu wrote:
Morthai wrote:
Cleave:

attack hits adjacent monsters to you and adjacent monsters to the target

(the wording is a bit off here O.o)

the monster additionally hit must be adjacent to you and the monster you initially hit. It is like an arc attack

You could hit 5 figures, targeting the master in the middle (C5) ... more likely with something like kobolds ...


yep but still it is different from whirlwind.
 
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clarence
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Sense Pursuer - costs 2 fat, gain +1 awareness. when a monster moves adjacent to you, exhaust card to remove yourself from the map.

I think that this skill make the hero totally immuned to melee monster.
What happen if he is an objective carrier for some quest. It make him very safe from dropping the objective unless the OL use all ranged monster for the quest.

Shall we make it drop objective token if u exhaust the card.
 
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Triu Greykith
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There are other hidden hero skills. You can't use it very often at 2 fatigue, and are still vulnerable to Ranged, Reach, and monsters that start the turn adjacent.
 
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Morthai Saichor
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I would like to see some discussion around the Spellthief and the Inquisitor =)
 
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Amish Cow

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My thoughts on the Inquisitor are kind of random and all over the place.

Inquisitor
I'm a huge fan of the mechanic of marking monsters. Lets see how it looks.


0pt - Hunt Heretics - costs 1 fat, Action: perform attack. If at least 1 heart, place mark token on target. each attack against target with mark token gains: discard token to gain +1heart. The card has an error, it should have a 'heart' after "if you deal at least 1". I do like the basic ability to suffer 1 fatigue to gain +2heart (similar to Runemasters). I would add somewhere (perhaps in the instruction book) that a monster can only have 1 mark on him at a time. And have a maximum number of marks? Or do you want the ability to have every monster on the board marked? Can monsters spend an action to remove a mark? That would be neat and could give the overlord somethign else to think about.

1pt - Incite Madness - costs 2 fat, Action: exhaust card, choose monster within 3 spaces. test willpower. Pass: monster attacks itself. Fail: recover 1fat Similar to OL's Dark Charm, but hero style! I think this card may need to be nerfed due to its amazing potential... and only a 1point skill. I don't see why you wouldn't cast this every turn unless you were surrounded by zombies or some crappy monsters. This is espcially powerful in the Finales where the main end-guy will bash himself in the face each turn.

1pt - Encouragement - Action: exhaust card and choose hero within 3 spaces. Hero may perform an action and recover 1fat. Who recovers the Fat? The Inquisitor or target hero? When does the fatigue recovery proc? Before or after the target hero gets his action? Perhaps have it cost a fatigue so you're 'trading' a fatigue with your target? I know in PBF-ST-5 Mok essentially gets paid a fatigue to cast this.

1pt - Preach for Salvation - Each time an adjacent hero recovers fatigue, you recover 1heart. Each time an adjacent hero recovers hearts, you recover 1 fatigue. I like it. Double awesome for Mok.

2pt - Relentless - Costs 1 fat - You gain +1 willpower. Exhaust this card to place a mark token on a monster within 3 spaces. I like it. Add a mark for 1 fatigue.

2pt - Reward Followers - costs 1 fat - whenever a monster with a mark token is attacked and takes at least 1heart, exhaust card to remove the mark token to roll 2 red power dice. The attacking hero recovers hearts equal to hearts rolled. This looks like the main 'healing' spell for the class, but does twice the healing as PoH.

2pt - Fierce Loyalty - You gain +2 health. Each hero within 3 spaces that performs an attack gains: if you deal at least 1 heart place a mark token on the target. Typo on the word "Loyalty". Would the mark token proc before or after the attack is resolved? For example, I attack and do 2 hearts damage. Then after the attack is resolved the monster gets a mark? Or can I use that newly acquired mark to gain another 2 hearts damage that attack?

3pt - Burn at the stake - costs 2 fat - exhaust an equipped Burning Torch, choose a monster within 3 spaces, test willpower. Pass: roll 2 red power dice, monster takes that much damage. Seems very powerful for Act 1, and very weak for Act II. Spend 2 fatigue and exhaust your torch at a chance to do 2-6 damage. Does the monster roll defense dice? And at 3 skill points, the earliest you will have this skill is the quest before the interlude.

3pt - Crusade - Costs 2 fat - Action: place a mark token on each monster within 5 spaces. Move your speed and attack. A nice powerful 3skill card. For 1 action & 2 fat, you get a move action, attack action, and place a bunch of marks. A side note: is this movement affected by OL skills that can activate "on a move action"?

I'm curious to see how this class plays out. I fear the way I would play this class would be to cast Incite Madness and Encouragement every turn... and then every 2 turns move to catch up with the group, and rest to get fatigue back... which would be very dull. I know Mok in PBF-ST-5 got encouragement as his first skill and uses it every turn, and will probably 'regenerate' fatigue through his ability and/or Preach For Salvation that he will never have to rest again!

Another interesting Combo is Mok with Preach for Salvation. Any other adjacent hero recovering a fatigue or health gives Mok both a fatigue and a health. Nifty.

 
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Morthai Saichor
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again valid points made and i answer some of them:

amishcow wrote:

0pt - Hunt Heretics - costs 1 fat, Action: perform attack. If at least 1 heart, place mark token on target. each attack against target with mark token gains: discard token to gain +1heart. The card has an error, it should have a 'heart' after "if you deal at least 1". I do like the basic ability to suffer 1 fatigue to gain +2heart (similar to Runemasters). I would add somewhere (perhaps in the instruction book) that a monster can only have 1 mark on him at a time. And have a maximum number of marks? Or do you want the ability to have every monster on the board marked? Can monsters spend an action to remove a mark? That would be neat and could give the overlord somethign else to think about.

mark token are not limited by supply or how many can be on a monster. They can stack up. Although i am considering it to move it down to 1 bonus damage per mark.

amishcow wrote:

1pt - Incite Madness - costs 2 fat, Action: exhaust card, choose monster within 3 spaces. test willpower. Pass: monster attacks itself. Fail: recover 1fat Similar to OL's Dark Charm, but hero style! I think this card may need to be nerfed due to its amazing potential... and only a 1point skill. I don't see why you wouldn't cast this every turn unless you were surrounded by zombies or some crappy monsters. This is espcially powerful in the Finales where the main end-guy will bash himself in the face each turn.

It should probably state minion monster, not every monster.

amishcow wrote:

1pt - Encouragement - Action: exhaust card and choose hero within 3 spaces. Hero may perform an action and recover 1fat. Who recovers the Fat? The Inquisitor or target hero? When does the fatigue recovery proc? Before or after the target hero gets his action? Perhaps have it cost a fatigue so you're 'trading' a fatigue with your target? I know in PBF-ST-5 Mok essentially gets paid a fatigue to cast this.

Probably yes.

amishcow wrote:

2pt - Reward Followers - costs 1 fat - whenever a monster with a mark token is attacked and takes at least 1heart, exhaust card to remove the mark token to roll 2 red power dice. The attacking hero recovers hearts equal to hearts rolled. This looks like the main 'healing' spell for the class, but does twice the healing as PoH.

PoH requires only to be adjacent and costs 0 XP, this costs 2 XP and requires a mark token on the monster, and that mark token cannot be used to boost the attack.

amishcow wrote:

2pt - Fierce Loyalty - You gain +2 health. Each hero within 3 spaces that performs an attack gains: if you deal at least 1 heart place a mark token on the target. Typo on the word "Loyalty". Would the mark token proc before or after the attack is resolved? For example, I attack and do 2 hearts damage. Then after the attack is resolved the monster gets a mark? Or can I use that newly acquired mark to gain another 2 hearts damage that attack?

Obviously like other status effects the mark token is applied after the attack.

amishcow wrote:

3pt - Burn at the stake - costs 2 fat - exhaust an equipped Burning Torch, choose a monster within 3 spaces, test willpower. Pass: roll 2 red power dice, monster takes that much damage. Seems very powerful for Act 1, and very weak for Act II. Spend 2 fatigue and exhaust your torch at a chance to do 2-6 damage. Does the monster roll defense dice? And at 3 skill points, the earliest you will have this skill is the quest before the interlude.

It don't state that the target may roll defence dice so it cannot roll any.

amishcow wrote:

3pt - Crusade - Costs 2 fat - Action: place a mark token on each monster within 5 spaces. Move your speed and attack. A nice powerful 3skill card. For 1 action & 2 fat, you get a move action, attack action, and place a bunch of marks. A side note: is this movement affected by OL skills that can activate "on a move action"?

Move up to your speed and perform a move action are according to adam sadler two different things. Probably chanceing it to a move action and within 3 spaces.
 
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Morthai Saichor
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redone inquisitor:


Mark token:






 
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Amish Cow

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Spell Thief

just going to jump right in!

0pt - Brand Pain - costs 1 fat - Gain +1heart on attacks to monsters with a condition. When attacking with a magic weapon, exhaust card to gain poison. I like it.

1pt - Invert Hex - costs 1 fat - Action: discard a condition from you or adjacent hero. Each monster within 3 spaces suffers 1heart. Very healer, but not many heros can remove conditions so its perfect...

1pt - Bursting Distress - costs 1 fat - Action: perform attack with magic weapon. If deals at least 1heart, each adjacent monster to your target suffers 2hearts. A refreshing twist to Blast... but is also MUCH more powerful. Guaranteed damage is very powerful, especially in act 1 where monsters have less health. 2heart guaranteed damage is much better than possible attack damage, making this skill much stronger than blast. Guaranteed damage is so powerful, this is why the Wildlander has a 3 point skill card guaranteeing 3 points of damage. But that is to only 1 target. This skill could affect 10+ if the monsters are all adjacent to a shadow dragon. As written a spellthief could cast this twice in a turn, more than likely doing 4 damage to a herd of monsters... killing Act 1 minion barghests, cave spiders, elementals, flesh moulders, goblin archers, and zombies.

Also, I dont have the definition to Blast in front of me, but the way this card is worded makes the Bursting Distress hit all monsters adjacent. I think Blast only hits monsters adjacent to the square targeted. So all the zombies trying to hug the shadow dragon get hit, even if they are 3 spaces away from the target hit.

I recommend nerfing it to 'adjacent monsters suffer 1heart', AND/OR changing the text to read like blast as far as adjacent to target space, AND/OR making it a 2 or 3 point skill, AND/OR making it exhaust, AND/OR make it a surge.

1pt - Magic Barrier - costs 1 fat - Exhaust card. until start of next turn you and adjacent heros gain: if suffer 2 or more wounds, suffer 1 less. This is essentially Leoric's Ability, cool.

2pt - Forbidden Art - gain +1 knowledge, each time you inflict a condition on a monster, exhaust card to inflict the same condition to each adjacent monster. Condition and Knowledge are incorrectly spelled on the card. This card is very powerful because monsters cannot remove conditions from themselves and will eventually 'bleed' to death from a poison. Being able to 'blast' this effect FREE OF CHARGE (no action, no fatigue). So first turn of an encounter you Brand Pain, and Forbidden Art - and a cluster of monsters are now literally racing against their death.

2pt - Counterspell - costs 2fat - when a hero within 3 spaces is targeted by an overlord event card, exhaust card, test knowledge. Pass: OL card has no effect. Fail: recover 1fat. I think you need to re-think this card. All event cards target monsters (or no one). This skill will never proc, because no Event cards target heros. You could say whenever a monster within 3 spaces is targeted. Let me know the change and I'll comment (tho, i have a feeling this skill SUCKS for the OL)

2pt - Rooting Jinx - costs 2fat - Action: exhaust card. monsters within 3 spaces of you are immobilized. I like the high-cost of this card. An action and 2 fatigue. I would abuse the heck out of this and spend my turn moving up 2 spaces, Immobilizing everything, moving back, and letting the other guys range kill everything.

3pt - Implode - costs 2 fat - Action: perform an attack affecting every monster in your line of site that is affected by a condition, ignoring range. I like the idea of this card. I'm trying to decide how often Implode would affect more than just 2 or 3 monsters. One good combo would be to Rooting Jinx and then Implode. That could target an entire room of monsters.

3pt - Spellflare - When a monster suffers a condition due to your skills, exhaust this card to make monster suffer a second condition.
Cool. You could put Poison and Disease on and force a monster to take 2 guaranteed damage a turn. Very powerful.


 
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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) » Forums » Variants
Re: Silken Threads Balance - Skills
Better?






 
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