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Subject: Tenacious Z? rss

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Marc Drebing
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I know the card is straight forward, but I have several questions and I hope a patient fellow geek will help clarify some things for me.

1. This is played from the discard pile right?

2. Is this played as your 1 minion for the turn, or is it only played if another card allows you to play an additional card that turn?

3. You can only play one Tenacious Z a turn?
 
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M. B. Downey
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Zugli wrote:
I know the card is straight forward, but I have several questions and I hope a patient fellow geek will help clarify some things for me.

1. This is played from the discard pile right?


It can be. It can also be played as normal.

Quote:
2. Is this played as your 1 minion for the turn, or is it only played if another card allows you to play an additional card that turn?


If you play it from your graveyard, it does not count as your single minion. You do not need another card to be able to play it.

Quote:
3. You can only play one Tenacious Z a turn?


From the graveyard, yes. You can one from your hand as a regular minion, or any other time a card allows you to play a minion.
 
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The Compulsive Completist
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Don't try and overthink the card. Just enjoy its tenaciousness.
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Marc Drebing
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Thank you geeks!
 
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Ken B.
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Possibly my favorite Smash Up card. Funny name, cool power, reminds me of "Gravecrawler" from Magic: The Gathering.

Plus, it's hilarious to imagine a zombified Jack Black and KG comin' to chomp your brains.
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Game Guy
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This is not the greatest card ever played, it's just a tribute!
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Needle
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OK I get this but how would this work.

It's my turn, we score a base that has 4 Tenacious Z on it.

They go to my discard. Since my turn is not over I assume I can bring them all out and place them on other bases. Yes?

If yes, can they be placed on the new base also?

Thanks in advance.
 
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M. B. Downey
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nnf1 wrote:
OK I get this but how would this work.

It's my turn, we score a base that has 4 Tenacious Z on it.

They go to my discard. Since my turn is not over I assume I can bring them all out and place them on other bases. Yes?


No.

Did you read the card?



The last line on the card answers part of your question.

As to whether you can bring one out at all, that is open to interpretation. I would probably say no. It says you may play it as an extra minion. That implies to me you can only play it during your play minions phase, but I can also see why you might be able to play it in the situation you describe. I don't have my rulebook available so cannot give you an exact answer.
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Needle
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Smash Up » Forums » Rules
Re: Tenacious Z?
Hi,

Thanks for the response. I got it now that you can only use one of these but it is a "special" and I don't think we can imply that it can only work when playing a minion. The rules talk about "specials" as being used in unusual times and ways and that moving minions around is not playing them.

I'm thinking it fits with the Zombie theme too.

Thanks for the prompt response.
 
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Morten Notodden
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downeymb wrote:
nnf1 wrote:
OK I get this but how would this work.

It's my turn, we score a base that has 4 Tenacious Z on it.

They go to my discard. Since my turn is not over I assume I can bring them all out and place them on other bases. Yes?


No.

Did you read the card?



The last line on the card answers part of your question.

As to whether you can bring one out at all, that is open to interpretation. I would probably say no. It says you may play it as an extra minion. That implies to me you can only play it during your play minions phase, but I can also see why you might be able to play it in the situation you describe. I don't have my rulebook available so cannot give you an exact answer.


We just had the same issue in our game, but with the player wanting to play it immediately after discarding it because of too many cards in hand. I would also like an answer to whether it can be played like this.

Part of me says no because cards are "played" during the "Play Cards" phase.

Another part of me says yes because the card has the "Special" trait and it says "During your turn...". Your turn isn't over until the "Shut it down" phase ends.
 
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Todd Rowland
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postm wrote:
downeymb wrote:
nnf1 wrote:
OK I get this but how would this work.

It's my turn, we score a base that has 4 Tenacious Z on it.

They go to my discard. Since my turn is not over I assume I can bring them all out and place them on other bases. Yes?


No.

Did you read the card?



The last line on the card answers part of your question.

As to whether you can bring one out at all, that is open to interpretation. I would probably say no. It says you may play it as an extra minion. That implies to me you can only play it during your play minions phase, but I can also see why you might be able to play it in the situation you describe. I don't have my rulebook available so cannot give you an exact answer.


We just had the same issue in our game, but with the player wanting to play it immediately after discarding it because of too many cards in hand. I would also like an answer to whether it can be played like this.

Part of me says no because cards are "played" during the "Play Cards" phase.

Another part of me says yes because the card has the "Special" trait and it says "During your turn...". Your turn isn't over until the "Shut it down" phase ends.


The part of you that says "no" is correct, though I don't have the rulebook in front of me right now to quote exactly why.

But it is right.
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Morten Notodden
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Duly noted. Thanks!
 
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Lemon Dish
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AEGTodd wrote:
postm wrote:
downeymb wrote:
nnf1 wrote:
OK I get this but how would this work.

It's my turn, we score a base that has 4 Tenacious Z on it.

They go to my discard. Since my turn is not over I assume I can bring them all out and place them on other bases. Yes?


No.

Did you read the card?



The last line on the card answers part of your question.

As to whether you can bring one out at all, that is open to interpretation. I would probably say no. It says you may play it as an extra minion. That implies to me you can only play it during your play minions phase, but I can also see why you might be able to play it in the situation you describe. I don't have my rulebook available so cannot give you an exact answer.


We just had the same issue in our game, but with the player wanting to play it immediately after discarding it because of too many cards in hand. I would also like an answer to whether it can be played like this.

Part of me says no because cards are "played" during the "Play Cards" phase.

Another part of me says yes because the card has the "Special" trait and it says "During your turn...". Your turn isn't over until the "Shut it down" phase ends.


The part of you that says "no" is correct, though I don't have the rulebook in front of me right now to quote exactly why.

But it is right.


Don't mean to necro this, but its bothering me. The only thing in the rulebook I can find that deals with this is the "Special" trait, which says to me that yes you can play it any time during your turn, even outside the 'play cards' phase. Am I missing something else?
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M. B. Downey
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Lemondish wrote:
Don't mean to necro this, but its bothering me. The only thing in the rulebook I can find that deals with this is the "Special" trait, which says to me that yes you can play it any time during your turn, even outside the 'play cards' phase. Am I missing something else?


No, you cannot play it.

Special abilities happen at either unusual times or in unusual ways. Every special card that happens at an unusual time says when it happens, like "at the beginning of you turn", "before a base scores", "after a base scores", or "at the end of your turn". Cards that happen in an unusual way, like playing a card from the graveyard as an extra minion, explain that.
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Morten Notodden
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downeymb wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Don't mean to necro this, but its bothering me. The only thing in the rulebook I can find that deals with this is the "Special" trait, which says to me that yes you can play it any time during your turn, even outside the 'play cards' phase. Am I missing something else?


No, you cannot play it.

Special abilities happen at either unusual times or in unusual ways. Every special card that happens at an unusual time says when it happens, like "at the beginning of you turn", "before a base scores", "after a base scores", or "at the end of your turn". Cards that happen in an unusual way, like playing a card from the graveyard as an extra minion, explain that.


But in this case it just says "During your turn..." and doesn't specify when. But anyway, the game publisher have answered above and said that you can't. But I can certainly see the confusion.
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M. B. Downey
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postm wrote:
But in this case it just says "During your turn..." and doesn't specify when. But anyway, the game publisher have answered above and said that you can't. But I can certainly see the confusion.


Look at the rest of the rulebook. It says multiple times in the rulebook that you can play one minion and one action during your turn; that doesn't mean you can play them at any time.

The rulebook is very clear, it's just people used to terrible rulebooks that they read way too much into things.
 
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Lemon Dish
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downeymb wrote:

Look at the rest of the rulebook. It says multiple times in the rulebook that you can play one minion and one action during your turn; that doesn't mean you can play them at any time.

The rulebook is very clear, it's just people used to terrible rulebooks that they read way too much into things.


Not entirely true, since in this case the card uses the keyword 'extra'. According to the rule book "Normally you can play one minion and one action each turn. A card that lets you plan an extra minion ... lets you play an additional card of that type during that turn..."

It also uses the keyword "Special"...

downeymb wrote:

No, you cannot play it.

Special abilities happen at either unusual times or in unusual ways. Every special card that happens at an unusual time says when it happens, like "at the beginning of you turn", "before a base scores", "after a base scores", or "at the end of your turn". Cards that happen in an unusual way, like playing a card from the graveyard as an extra minion, explain that.


...which does definitely state that they happen at unusual times. You're right, there. Would not a Tenacious Z played during the "Shut it Down" phase be an unusual time, though? According to the official FAQ on the Alderac site, "Special cards break the normal rules of actions and minion abilities, and can be played at ANY time they are applicable, regardless of which players’ turn it is." When we take "Any time they are applicable" and the words "During your turn (on the card)", we logically come away with any time during your turn, including during the "Shut it Down" phase.

My understanding is summarized this like:
1. The card says as an extra minion, so does not go against your 1 minion per turn limit.
2. The card is special, so can be played outside the normal turn phases, but limited by the words 'During your turn' and 'only use the ability of one Tenacious Z each turn'.
3. I like pie.

postm wrote:
But in this case it just says "During your turn..." and doesn't specify when. But anyway, the game publisher have answered above and said that you can't. But I can certainly see the confusion.


Indeed it has been answered, but I still find confusion as to which part of the rulebook takes precedence here. I hope I didn't break some rule by arguing against a previously answered topic (or necroing an old thread) - I'm just putting forth my thinking so that someone could better find at which step I missed the rule. Hopefully Todd, or someone else, can point me to the specific rule (that Todd mentioned) that makes this whole thing unambiguously clear.
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M. B. Downey
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Reread this:

downeymb wrote:
Special abilities happen at either unusual times or in unusual ways. Every special card that happens at an unusual time says when it happens, like "at the beginning of you turn", "before a base scores", "after a base scores", or "at the end of your turn". Cards that happen in an unusual way, like playing a card from the graveyard as an extra minion, explain that.


You're getting mixed up by the "during your turn" part. It doesn't say "during any phase of your turn". If the Tenacious Z could be played at any time during your turn, they would have said that. "During your turn" is the exact same language they use throughout the rulebook whenever they mentioning playing a minion or an action.

The point about the "any time they're applicable" is for instances like "when a base is being scored" or "after a base is scored". Any special card that can be played during a special time will say when that special time is. The Tenacious Z does not give special times, it gives a constraint of only during your turn, making it clear you cannot play it from the graveyard during someone else's turn.

Really, you're overthinking this. You're adding in extra words when they are not there.
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Toad Stool
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downeymb wrote:
Reread this:

downeymb wrote:
Special abilities happen at either unusual times or in unusual ways. Every special card that happens at an unusual time says when it happens, like "at the beginning of you turn", "before a base scores", "after a base scores", or "at the end of your turn". Cards that happen in an unusual way, like playing a card from the graveyard as an extra minion, explain that.


You're getting mixed up by the "during your turn" part. It doesn't say "during any phase of your turn". If the Tenacious Z could be played at any time during your turn, they would have said that. "During your turn" is the exact same language they use throughout the rulebook whenever they mentioning playing a minion or an action.

The point about the "any time they're applicable" is for instances like "when a base is being scored" or "after a base is scored". Any special card that can be played during a special time will say when that special time is. The Tenacious Z does not give special times, it gives a constraint of only during your turn, making it clear you cannot play it from the graveyard during someone else's turn.

Really, you're overthinking this. You're adding in extra words when they are not there.


No.

There are no "at the beginning of your turn" or "at the end of your turn" Specials because normal cards already deal with those limitations in their text. Not a Special card says "at the beginning" or "at the end" of your turn. They're all "before or after a base scores", which may not actually be during your turn. Special cards are not played in the normal turn order because then they wouldn't need to be labeled Special, they'd just be normal cards.

Special are used for playing things out of the normal order of things. Lemon is right in that this makes a lot of sense for a case in which TenZ is played during other phases where you would normally not be able to play a minion simply because it says both 'Special', thus denoting out of order play, and 'During your turn' suggesting the only limitation: it still must be your turn.
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Lemon Dish
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That's exactly what I was thinking. It also follows the theme of the card, tenacious being the idea of not readily giving up. I feel like that theme definitely supports the idea of a zombie crawling back from the discard pile following a base you just scored. Keep in mind, it is only this situation that I'm confused about. Todd answered it by saying "no, you can't", but never returned to point out the actual rule section that supports it, and since I can't find it on my own...

Thanks for trying to help me here, downeymb, but it doesn't seem like the rules on this will ever be unambiguous for me. I'll just keep playing it as my group has interpreted it (any time in your turn, not just during the minion phase) since it seems far more fun and thematic that way.
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Morten Notodden
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While I can see what downeymb is saying (and now I tend to agree with her), I can't help but feeling sympathetic towards those who feel it's a bit unclear (myself included).

I have played Magic: The Gathering alot and the wording of those cards have caused a serious ammount of discussion. And they're alot more specifically worded than the cards in Smash Up! It's practically impossible to foresee all the combinations in card games like these.

1. Tenacious Z says it's a "Special" card that might be played at unusual times.
2. It says it can be played as an extra minion.
3. it uses the phrase "During your turn" without specifying that this means the phase where you're normally allowed to play minions

These three points combined can be confusing for anyone and could possibly be worded better on the card.

But again, I accept the final ruling given by the publisher and the reasoning explained by downeymb.
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Mark Wootton
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Just to reiterate what Todd said. This minion can only be played at normal times during your turn. It is a special action, because we wanted to make clear that it was an action that was unusual in that it was "active" when in your discard pile.

Those posters who have posted the various rules references suggesting why you cannot play this out of your main phase are correct.

We want the Smash Up rules to remain simple. It is hard to cover every single nuance of every tiny little edge case scenario, but we do believe that it is clear in this case. Apologies to anyone who does not find it so, we really aren't trying to confuse you.

But I can tell you officially, that you can only play Tenacious Z at a time that you could normally play a minion. Not after or before a base scores. That can only be done when a card specifies that particular timing window.


Mark
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Blaine Brumbaugh
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I have a new question regarding this card. I played Zombie Ninjas and am wondering if Tenacious Z can be played from the discard pile in the same turn it went to the discard pile.

I had Tenacious Z on one base and wanted it on another. My first play was to play the action card Seeing Stars to destroy Tenacious Z, then used it's special ability to put it onto another base, then played my minion for the turn. This allowed me to get the VP I needed to win the game. Is this a valid combination?
 
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Alfonso Castro
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rbb711 wrote:
I have a new question regarding this card. I played Zombie Ninjas and am wondering if Tenacious Z can be played from the discard pile in the same turn it went to the discard pile.

I had Tenacious Z on one base and wanted it on another. My first play was to play the action card Seeing Stars to destroy Tenacious Z, then used it's special ability to put it onto another base, then played my minion for the turn. This allowed me to get the VP I needed to win the game. Is this a valid combination?


Yes. This is a valid play.
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