Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
33 Posts
Prev «  1 , 2  | 

Smash Up» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rules Dispute rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Rick Teverbaugh
United States
Anderson
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
s3rvant wrote:
rickert wrote:
s3rvant wrote:
Also, I disagree completely with the notion that a revealed card should be considered "in play". Cards in general aren't considered "in play" until you've played them (normally from hand; possibly from elsewhere).

I disagree with this statement totally for the previously stated reasons. I think they are more properly temporarily in play because of an effect of a card in play than any other state defined by the game. So until the game's creators submit a new state for those cards to be in, I think my explanation is as good as any. If the game being discussed was Nightfall, then I would easily and happily given in to your argument, but not here.

If you're going to argue that revealed cards are entering play, then would they not be subject to other effects currently affecting cards that are in play? This would open them up to lots of weird thing such as strength adjustments, being destroyed or discarded, etc. Now I'm not saying there are currently effects which do this (as I'm not going back to check each one), but it would certainly allow for weird complications should blanket rules like "Ongoing: Destroy the next minion that enters play" ever be created in expansions. As weird complications like this are generally not desirable, it makes more sense that revealing a card does not place into play.

Furthermore, the term "deck" has dual meanings: both as a place (e.g. top of deck or bottom of deck) and as a physical structure(e.g. there are 20 cards in this deck). A card can still be one member of the whole deck while being instructed to be placed in a different position within the deck. Arguing that temporarily removing a card from place also forces it to cease being part of the physical structure is like saying that when moving a card from the top of the deck to the bottom of the deck that during the transition the card has ceased to be part of the deck...


You can make that argument but I think it is a weak one. If a card exists to be checked for type outside of the deck, then I believe it is no longer in the deck during that examination.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Wootton
Scotland
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
I am having trouble understanding the issue. Page 4 of the rulebook states that you reshuffle your deck if ever you are required to either draw or reveal a card. Doesn't that simply answer the question? Whether the cards are part of the deck or not is not relevant, as he needs to reveal 5, cannot and therefore the rule about reshuffling the deck triggers.

The state of the cards is "revealed" at that time they are not in play, or in hand or in the deck. They are revealed.

As for the discussion that a revealed card is in play, I have no idea where this has come from. If someone can give me a better explanation I will see if I can clarify it. Saying a card is or isn't in a deck is not a basis for describing a card as in play. In the same way that a card in hand is not in play, even though it is not in the deck. It is in hand. A revealed card is jut what it is, revealed. Nothing more or less.

Merry Xmas

Mark

EDITED

12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick Teverbaugh
United States
Anderson
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Har1equin wrote:
I am having trouble understanding the issue. Page 4 of the rulebook states that you reshuffle your deck if ever you are required to either draw or reveal a card. Doesn't that simply answer the question?

As for the discussin that a revealed card is in play, I have no idea where this has come from. If someone can give me a better explanation I will see if I can clarify it. Saying a card is or isn't in a deck is not a basis for describing a card as in play. In the same way that a card in hand is not in play, even though it is not in the deck. It is in hand. A revealed card is jut what it is, revealed. Nothing more or less.

Merry Xmas

Mark


I think the problem is that "revealed" isn't a location. Another person posted that since the card wasn't in play or in hand or in the discard pile that it must still be in the deck. I found that idea preposterous, so I said that maybe we could consider it temporarily in play during the time the card was being checked for its content and status to determine its next location. It made as much sense to me as it still being in the deck. The only ways to solve the issue really are to create a location labeled "revealed" or to say that not every card needs to be in a distinct location at every moment.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, people are putting way too much thought into this.

Play Portal, reveal last 3 cards left in deck, shuffle discard pile to form a new deck and draw last 2 cards for Portal. Per the Portal card place any revealed minions in your hand and return the other cards to the top of your new deck in any order.

I don't get how that is even arguable.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marty McFly
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
(EDIT: I decided that my original post probably sounded a little jerk-ish, so I'm changing it.)

I realize I'm nobody official, but I wanted to weigh in on the "where is a revealed card" debate. For the purpose of illustrating my point, I'll invent a new Smash Up card:

Infrared Beacon (Action)
Ongoing: Play on a base. Any other player with a minion on this base plays with the top card of his or her deck revealed.


With this card in play, you can see the cards on top of other players' decks, but those cards are still part of those decks. Just like when a card lets you look at another player's hand--those cards are still in that player's hand. Being able to see the card's face doesn't change its location.

The other thing that may be important to remember is that no card can be played while another card is in process of resolving. So, while I suppose you could argue that Dinghy temporarily puts minions in limbo while they move from one base to another, it is a moot point because nothing can affect those minions while Dinghy is resolving, and it certainly doesn't remove them from play.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Wootton
Scotland
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
I can see the issue here.

But I guess I would say that if a card states that you "play with the top card of your deck" revealed, it is is explaining that it is permanently altering the game state of one of the cards in your deck from hidden to revealed. If you are asked to reveal cards from your deck in some way, and then do something with them, then they go from your deck into a revealed state, and from there to wherever they need to go next. These are subtle differences in wording to get across intent, I suspect.

I'll make sure that our rules guys have seen this thread, but I am pretty sure the intent is that you reshuffle your deck, in terms of the question by the OP.

Mark
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marty McFly
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Smash Up » Forums » Rules
Re: Rules Dispute
Honestly, (and, again, I realize I'm nobody) I wouldn't mess with rules on either issue. The OP's original question is already answered in the rules, and adding rules for the state of cards (vs. their location) might be asking for more trouble than it's worth. I mean, what's the state of your entire deck then when you play the Wizard card (the name escapes me) that lets you search the deck for an action? Or your discard pile when the Zombie card is bringing something back? Or the state of a base that is about to be destroyed but is waiting to see if someone plays a Shinobi or moves a Pirate? Does a minion have a temporary state while Fire Trap is going off, where it's in play but can't stay there?

You'll never be able to cover all the different states of all cards because any new card effect from an expansion could add new states. My original "jerk-ish" post was along the lines that it's unreasonable to expect the rules to cover all those different states, especially given that the cards are only in those states while another card is resolving. Also, there's a big difference between state and location, and one can change while the other stays the same (i.e. "revealed" state, but still in the "deck" location). Rules don't typically cover game component states (unless you're coding the online version of the game) because they become irrelevant immediately after an effect resolves. I changed the post to give an example instead, but still believe my original statement.

Just my nobody's long-winded opinion...

P.S. My hat's off to game designers that have to deal with these types of issues!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dustin Ivey
United States
Vadnais Heights
Location:
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't even see the problem here...

Revealed cards are simply revealed, there status does not matter. They are surely not "in play." At best they are "revealed" and that's simply it...

I would argue that revealed cards don't have a location at that point in time except for "revealed."

Also if revealed cards are "in play" then all abilities on said revealed cards would activate... Actions would go off and minions with abilities would trigger...

It's preposterous to assume anything other then just a revealed state. If you needed something, then technically they were simply revealed but are still part of the deck, what exactly makes you think otherwise?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Prev «  1 , 2  | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.