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Subject: Some Misplayed, Forgotten or Misunderstood Rules or Situations rss

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Greg Gresik
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Below are some things we have played incorrectly in our group - hopefully you will avoid these pitfalls. We only currently play the base game, so the below do not include situations from "Cities" or "Leaders" (although some of the commentary following might).


1)Resources produced by yellow cards or completed wonder stage abilities cannot be bought by neighbors.

2)Resource cards just built that turn do not produce resources that turn so thus may not be used by you or neighbors for production. They DO count toward special cards (Bazaar and Vineyard).

3)Pass left in Age I, right in Age II and left in Age III.

4)The starting resource produced by a wonder (in the upper left corner) can be bought by neighbors – but does not count as a “card” of that color for any other purpose.

5)You pay 2 coins for EACH resource you buy from a neighbor (unless you have cards/abilities that reduce this cost – which then do so for each resource).

6)You can only buy however many of a resource a neighbor produces.

7)You may not spend coins to buy resources on the same turn they were earned. (i.e. you can only build with what resources you and your neighbors have available at the beginning of the round).

8)Gold is NOT “spent” for VP before determining tie breaker.

9)You can’t build the exact same building twice in your tableau.

10)The Lighthouse – counts itself both times (coins and VP), according to the updated rules.

11)When discarding unused guilds, the identity of both the discarded and the used guilds should be kept a secret.

12)According to the rules, Wonder Side A and Side B are balanced, meaning some players can play A while others play B during the same game. This is highly debated.


I will update the first post as others post suggestions.
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Dennis de Vries
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You could add another card to point 10:

The Secret Society (Cities expansion, black card) gives 1 coin and 1 victory point for every black card (also including itself, just like the Lighthouse).
 
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J
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Nikoms wrote:

2)Resource cards just built that turn may not be used by you or neighbors.

10)The Lighthouse – counts itself both times (coins and VP), according to the updated rules.


The Vineyard and Bazaar DO count brown/gray cards played by your neighbors on the same turn.

Nikoms wrote:

3)Pass left in Age I, right in Age II and left in Age III.

The back of each age card shows a symbol indicating which way to pass


Nikoms wrote:

7)You may not spend coins the same turn they were earned.

You may spend coins the same turn they were earned to pay for payments forced on you by other players (New symbol on the Catan wonder and several cards in cities expansion)

Nikoms wrote:

12)Wonder Side A and Side B are balanced, meaning some players can play A while others play B during the same game.

Mostly untrue. While players can play A while others play B during the same game I'd advise you to allow players to pick which side they want to play rather than forcing players to play a particular side since the A sides of many wonders are very inferior to their B sides.
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Ben Bateson
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allstar64 wrote:

Nikoms wrote:

12)Wonder Side A and Side B are balanced, meaning some players can play A while others play B during the same game.

Mostly untrue. While players can play A while others play B during the same game I'd advise you to allow players to pick which side they want to play rather than forcing players to play a particular side since the A sides of many wonders are very inferior to their B sides.


Almost entirely untrue. A Wonder's abilities are only as good as you - or your opponents - make it. Any time you've seen a B-side lose to an A-side Wonder is sufficient to disprove this theory. Or are you suggesting that there is a strict hierarchy of all 14 Wonder boards?

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Greg Gresik
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allstar64 wrote:
Nikoms wrote:


3)Pass left in Age I, right in Age II and left in Age III.

The back of each age card shows a symbol indicating which way to pass


True - but we were constantly forgetting to switch, as we were looking at the fronts.



allstar64 wrote:

Nikoms wrote:

12)Wonder Side A and Side B are balanced, meaning some players can play A while others play B during the same game.

Mostly untrue. While players can play A while others play B during the same game I'd advise you to allow players to pick which side they want to play rather than forcing players to play a particular side since the A sides of many wonders are very inferior to their B sides.


Actually, the rules themselves state that the two sides, while different and B more complex, are indeed balanced for play in the same game.

Finally, for these things that I listed are things my group has struggles with at times. We do not have the expansions (yet) - so these "suggestions" or "don't screw up what we did" will not often take into consideration the expansions.
 
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"7)You may not spend coins to buy resources on the same turn they were earned."

As newbies, We cover this by placing any money you owe to a neighbor for resources purchased, on the cards you are passing them for the next round, keeping said coins seperate from their cache of coins. For newbies (us), this worked well as we were going around the table doing each players action in turn (not simultaneously), making sure we did it right.
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J
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Nikoms wrote:

Actually, the rules themselves state that the two sides, while different and B more complex, are indeed balanced for play in the same game.


I am well aware that the rulebook claims the two sides for all wonders are balanced and in my experience the rulebook is for the most part lying. I have played the game a lot and am very familiar with all the wonders and I find that the A sides are only worth using if all the players are pretty much brand new. That way inexperience can balance out the weaker wonders.

In the case of Rhodes, Ephesus, Alexandria and Halicanarsus their side Bs are so so much better than their side As that I see no reason to ever consider using their side As if you have one of them.

Babylon and Gizah, if nothing else, have more interesting side Bs than As and for this reason I always choose side B with them although I will concede that if you wanted to you could probably play their side As.

Olympia is the only Wonder whose side A is reasonably comparable to its side B. The other 6 wonders have extremely expensive stage three on side A wheres Olympia's is relatively cheap. Additionally while Olympia side B can be good a lot of its power is based on your neighbors getting good stuff you can use and I can tell you it is super frustrating when you are Olympia side B with uncooperative neighbors.

Now there are people who disagree with me on this which is why I am a big advocate of letting people decide on their own which side they want to play cause I hate being forced to play the game while being at a disadvantage right from the start.
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Tables
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ousgg wrote:
allstar64 wrote:

Nikoms wrote:

12)Wonder Side A and Side B are balanced, meaning some players can play A while others play B during the same game.

Mostly untrue. While players can play A while others play B during the same game I'd advise you to allow players to pick which side they want to play rather than forcing players to play a particular side since the A sides of many wonders are very inferior to their B sides.


Almost entirely untrue. A Wonder's abilities are only as good as you - or your opponents - make it. Any time you've seen a B-side lose to an A-side Wonder is sufficient to disprove this theory. Or are you suggesting that there is a strict hierarchy of all 14 Wonder boards?



Oh dear, it's the 'existence of tiers' debate all over again.

In short, there are two things to note about wonder strength.
1) There is a hierarchy of power, which says that each wonder ON AVERAGE is better/worse than each other.
2) This hierarchy matters considerably less than player skill and considerably less than the ebbs and flow of luck in an individual game.

If you're denying point 1, then you are claiming that all 14 sides (and possibly more with expansions and promos) are perfectly balanced with one another. This is of course absurdly difficult to believe, there's bound to be a number of small imbalances - perhaps Halikarnassos A averages 0.5 VPs per game more than Rhodes B, or the like. Point 2 however is the limiter on this - a good player with a bad wonder is still probably going to beat a bad player with a good wonder. And even if the players are equally skilled and you give the best wonder to one and the worst to the other, the player with the worst wonder might still get luckier and win. But if they played 100 games, you might see the one with the better wonder win maybe 55-60 games.

Now, you'll notice I'm not making claims as to which wonders are so good and which are so bad, nor am I trying to make a claim as to how big the gap is, I'm just making the point that it almost certainly exists.

If I were to start looking at the actual wonder boards, well Halikarnassos seems to be the most obvious point to start. Firstly the B side gives the same amount of VPs as it's built, but at any given stage of construction, it's almost strictly superior to side A: stage 1 is 2 VPs and 4 coin vs. 3 vps (and 4 coin is more than 1 VP, of course!). Up to stage two is 5 VPs and 8 coins to 3 VPs and 9 coins - one coin worse, but two coins up. And finally after totally constructing the Wonder, side A gives three coin less. All this of course could be well balanced if the B side was harder to construct... but it isn't. The A side, in addition to giving less, is also harder to build! Needing two of the same manufactured good is a serious issue - your neighbours won't build it for you, most likely, forcing you to build a card just for that last stage, or forego the final stage of the wonder. Halikarnassos A is just so close to being strictly worse than Halikarnassos B that it's hard to maintain that they're closely balanced.
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Ben Bateson
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I Eat Tables wrote:

In short, there are two things to note about wonder strength.
1) There is a hierarchy of power, which says that each wonder ON AVERAGE is better/worse than each other.
2) This hierarchy matters considerably less than player skill and considerably less than the ebbs and flow of luck in an individual game.


I agree with this, although I defy anyone to carry out an analysis that actually NAMES that hierarchy.

Most of the rest, I disagree with. Materialistically, sure - side B of the Mausoleum is better than side A. But that takes no account of how they relate to the other wonders on the table, nor when you might wish to build your Wonder (in the third Age, to deprive LHO of cards, and when money is of less use?). I would probably take A over B if my neighbours had an opening resource I didn't need, in order to weaken the economy of the game. That's quite beside the point that it's impossible to play Mausoleum A and Mausoleum B in the same game, and therefore it doesn't actually prove anything.

Edit: I didn't think it was the Mausoleum. Substitute Temple.
 
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Adrian Brooks
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I Eat Tables wrote:

If I were to start looking at the actual wonder boards, well Halikarnassos seems to be the most obvious point to start.

I assume you're talking Ephesos, not Halikarnassos.

Quote:

The A side, in addition to giving less, is also harder to build! Needing two of the same manufactured good is a serious issue - your neighbours won't build it for you, most likely, forcing you to build a card just for that last stage, or forego the final stage of the wonder.


That's an odd definition of "harder". Stage 3A requires one resource you haven't got, 3B two. While I accept there are subtleties, 7VP for building a press doesn't seem too terrible to me.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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Quote:
That's an odd definition of "harder". Stage 3A requires one resource you haven't got, 3B two. While I accept there are subtleties, 7VP for building a press doesn't seem too terrible to me.


I'd like to say that there is no subtlety here...

If you build any resource card, you usually expect it will help you in building several structures or making money. If you build a Press, its only use is 3rd stage of your wonder. You don't need 2xPapyrus for anything else , so no one will ever buy 2 from you.


In the end you will get 7 points from your 3rd stage. That's 3,5 point per card. Unless you manage to build it before Age III, it's terrible play. If you built it in Age II, new problems arise:

1. Taking almost useless Press in Age I or II can hinder your plays in Age III. Generally it's better to have as many usefull cards as possible before Age III. You wan't to be able to build as many high cost blues, reds and guils as possible, extra Press doesn't help.

2. By using up all of your wonder slot's before Age III you won't have option to deny card's from your opponents or to get out from hands with nothing good to play.


I'd would take a risk and make conclusion that it's better to forget about your 3rd stage or hope that your neighbour will build this extra Press you need for it.

All in all, A sides with manufactured good put you in bad position from the beginning of game. For me that makes them one of the weakest wonders (only A side of course).
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Fernando Robert Yu
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allstar64 wrote:
Nikoms wrote:

Actually, the rules themselves state that the two sides, while different and B more complex, are indeed balanced for play in the same game.


I am well aware that the rulebook claims the two sides for all wonders are balanced and in my experience the rulebook is for the most part lying. I have played the game a lot and am very familiar with all the wonders and I find that the A sides are only worth using if all the players are pretty much brand new. That way inexperience can balance out the weaker wonders.

In the case of Rhodes, Ephesus, Alexandria and Halicanarsus their side Bs are so so much better than their side As that I see no reason to ever consider using their side As if you have one of them.

Babylon and Gizah, if nothing else, have more interesting side Bs than As and for this reason I always choose side B with them although I will concede that if you wanted to you could probably play their side As.

Olympia is the only Wonder whose side A is reasonably comparable to its side B. The other 6 wonders have extremely expensive stage three on side A wheres Olympia's is relatively cheap. Additionally while Olympia side B can be good a lot of its power is based on your neighbors getting good stuff you can use and I can tell you it is super frustrating when you are Olympia side B with uncooperative neighbors.

Now there are people who disagree with me on this which is why I am a big advocate of letting people decide on their own which side they want to play cause I hate being forced to play the game while being at a disadvantage right from the start.


yeah when the wonders are picked randomly I let the players use which sides.

And no, not all side A's are inferior. Rome's (from 7 Wonders: Leaders) side A is better for me.
 
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John Borders
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I will first state that I do not consider myself to be anything more than an above average player. In my experience, having played the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus well over 100 times, I can tell you the following: 1. I have only managed to win 2 times with that wonder. 2. Those wins occurred in games where there were 3-4 people that were new to the game.

That particular Wonder regardless of side is highly dependent on the other players not playing against you when possible. Most games where I get stuck with that Wonder with other "seasoned" players usually results in nothing good in the discards because they know I can fish for it. It actually becomes part of the decision making process when weighing out which card to keep, play or discard for coins.

That being said, it is my least favorite wonder to play as you are always playing not to be last.
 
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J
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I'm assuming the above comments were directed to Ephesus

ousgg wrote:

Most of the rest, I disagree with. Materialistically, sure - side B of the Mausoleum is better than side A. But that takes no account of how they relate to the other wonders on the table, nor when you might wish to build your Wonder (in the third Age, to deprive LHO of cards, and when money is of less use?). I would probably take A over B if my neighbours had an opening resource I didn't need, in order to weaken the economy of the game. That's quite beside the point that it's impossible to play Mausoleum A and Mausoleum B in the same game, and therefore it doesn't actually prove anything.


Your comments here make no sense. As I Eat Tables clearly showed taking only points into account Ephesus A is inferior to B at every step of the way. In terms of money it is 1 coin superior at stage 2, hardly enough to make up for its other shortcomings. When you add in that until stage 3 the resource requirement for building are identical then there really is no early game interaction between your neighbors which should affect which side you want to play.

In regards to the final step.

Slow Dog wrote:

That's an odd definition of "harder". Stage 3A requires one resource you haven't got, 3B two. While I accept there are subtleties, 7VP for building a press doesn't seem too terrible to me.


The issue here is what is harder to get?

1 resource that experienced neighbors will not consider building for you (as you supply them with it already) and if you get yourself (without the forum) will never be used to build anything else in the game? or

2 resources which are very essential in the end game and that all players should be trying to get access to anyway?

The developed resources are very important cause a lot of cards in the endgame need at least one and finding yourself missing one will instantly make it impossible to build several age 3 cards (one of the reasons Alexandria B is so much superior to Alexandria A). Hence experienced players learn to be very careful in age 2 and secure all 3 of the developed resources going into age 3.

Needing to get 1 Scroll (or any developed resourse) for your wonder (Like Gizah B) is actually not that bad since you pretty much want to get it anyway. However in the case of Ephuses, Alexandria and Halicanarsus side A the game makes you get a second copy of one you already have. A second copy of a developed resource you already have (barring the forum) is harder than getting the two developed resources since down the line the two developed resources are much less of a waste than the 1 repeated one.
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Greg Gresik
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Point 12 updated.
 
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Ben Bateson
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Quote:
Your comments here make no sense. As I Eat Tables clearly showed taking only points into account Ephesus A is inferior to B at every step of the way.


No. No, no, no. No, it isn't.

Quite apart from the mythical 'other shortcomings' of which you speak (and there transparently are no 'other shortcomings' bar the ones we're discussing), have you ever played a game of 7 Wonders collecting purely money for the win? I'd be surprised if you have.

Therefore, control of money in Ages I & II is much more than just a VP conversion. There is no 'golden law' that dictates that 3=1VP throughout the entire game. If I earn money early, who is most likely to end up with it? My neighbours. Maybe I'll get 50% back, but unlikely if I've been neglecting resources by pissing about with my Wonder.

(by the way, our house rule is that you can look at your opening hand before picking Side A or Side B, which increases the strategy level in Age I)

Therefore, if I pick up a hand of science cards in Age I and have a wonder that produces a manufactured good, it is in my own best interests to weaken the economy of the game. I can't deprive others of the cards themselves, but I can deprive them of the ability to buy them.

And furthermore, all these arguments work on the assumption that you will be able to build all three (four) stages of your wonder, guaranteed. I don't know what sort of dumbass gamers you play with, but if my table see a chance of depriving someone of Wonder-building goods, then it will be taken.

 
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J
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7 Wonders » Forums » Rules
Re: Some Misplayed, Forgotten or Misunderstood Rules or Situations
ousgg wrote:

There is no 'golden law' that dictates that 3=1VP throughout the entire game


No but there is a golden law that says 3=1VP at the end of the game. I'm of course referring to the rule which says 3=1VP at the end of the game.

From this it can be inferred that 3is at least >= 1VP no matter what point in the game you are cause if you opt never to use it than the worst return you get on your money is 1 vp.

Since my post above was only looking a the situation where you were building Ephesus for it's VP advantage and nothing else (ie you never use the money you got from your wonder) it was looking at a situation where 3=1VP and hence

Side A Side B
Stage 1: 3 VP Stage 1: 3 1/3 VP
Stage 2: 6 VP Stage 2: 7 2/3 VP
Stage 3: 13 VP Stage 3: 14 VP

clearly showing B has a VP advantage.

The "mythical 'other shortcomings'" which I was referring to was the fact that good players would know how to use money and since side B gets you money sooner and gets you more of it overall Side B has additional advantages in the hands of someone who knows how to handle their money.

This is especially true in leaders and cities where money become much much more important to have throughout the whole game.


Quote:
Therefore, control of money in Ages I & II is much more than just a VP conversion. There is no 'golden law' that dictates that 3=1VP throughout the entire game. If I earn money early, who is most likely to end up with it? My neighbours. Maybe I'll get 50% back, but unlikely if I've been neglecting resources by pissing about with my Wonder.


You do realize the above statement can be summarized thusly:

"Although at the end of the game 3=1VP during the game it's less than that because you'll mismanage your money in such a way that it will help your opponents more than it will help you."

If you actually meant 3is better than 1VP during the game than I would agree with you but that would seem to go against the point you are trying to argue.

Also I'm unsure why you are trying to make arguments about why a pure money strategy is bad (again I'd agree with you) when what we're talking about is a comparison of 2 sides of the same wonder.

Quote:
(by the way, our house rule is that you can look at your opening hand before picking Side A or Side B, which increases the strategy level in Age I)

Therefore, if I pick up a hand of science cards in Age I and have a wonder that produces a manufactured good, it is in my own best interests to weaken the economy of the game. I can't deprive others of the cards themselves, but I can deprive them of the ability to buy them.


Which is fine and I will concede with certain wonders you might want to switch to a different side if you see resources are/are not available to you but I have never heard of anyone else playing this variant especially since if you are playing with leaders you would not have to pick your side until after you have finished drafting leaders.


Quote:
And furthermore, all these arguments work on the assumption that you will be able to build all three (four) stages of your wonder, guaranteed. I don't know what sort of dumbass gamers you play with, but if my table see a chance of depriving someone of Wonder-building goods, then it will be taken.


So far the only wonder I've presented any specific for is Ephesus As I've illustrated above not only do these arguments work on the assumption that you will be able to build all three stages of it but they work no matter how many stages of it you've built.

The "dumbass gamers" I play with are of many different skill levels including beginner but of my regular group plays with all expansions and have learned the danger of being denied a resource as well to deny resources themselves if it doesn't shut down their game which overall is much easier to do against side A wonders than side B wonders due to the higher stage 3 cost many of them have. I will say this though. Non of the gamers I've played with, not even the beginners, have such a poor understanding of their money that they end up helping their opponents more with it than they help themselves.
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J
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Speedbump858 wrote:
I will first state that I do not consider myself to be anything more than an above average player. In my experience, having played the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus well over 100 times, I can tell you the following: 1. I have only managed to win 2 times with that wonder. 2. Those wins occurred in games where there were 3-4 people that were new to the game.

That particular Wonder regardless of side is highly dependent on the other players not playing against you when possible. Most games where I get stuck with that Wonder with other "seasoned" players usually results in nothing good in the discards because they know I can fish for it. It actually becomes part of the decision making process when weighing out which card to keep, play or discard for coins.

That being said, it is my least favorite wonder to play as you are always playing not to be last.


I'm always interested in hearing how games with Mausoleum of Halicarnassus go. It seems to be the wonder with the largest range of opinions. I've seen opinions the same as yours which say it is pathetically weak (on A side I would agree). I've also seen opinions that it is impressively strong and nearly overpowered.

On B side I would say it is very balanced and one of the stronger wonders. I always enjoy using it and usually place fairly well though my games usually have 4+ players in them and the more players there are the stronger Halicarnassus becomes.
 
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Ben Bateson
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allstar64 wrote:

From this it can be inferred that 3is at least >= 1VP no matter what point in the game you are cause if you opt never to use it than the worst return you get on your money is 1 vp.

...

"Although at the end of the game 3=1VP during the game it's less than that because you'll mismanage your money in such a way that it will help your opponents more than it will help you."


Gee, the phrase 'multiplayer solitaire' might just have been invented with you in mind.

That's just not how the money and goods arbitrage works in 7 Wonders, unless you have a group that is dedicated to winning with scores of less than 40.

Unless you are able to demonstrate to me that all 18 cards you pick through the course of a game are based on the argument "I have logically proved that this card will earn me 2 or more VPs at game end AND is stochastically superior at doing so than any other card in my hand", then I have no choice but to disbelieve those arguments.

Quote:
Non of the gamers I've played with, not even the beginners, have such a poor understanding of their money that they end up helping their opponents more with it than they help themselves.


I'm not even sure what this means. I don't think it's even possible to gift someone a win by giving them lots of money.

Why are you suddenly introducing Leaders and Cities into the discussion? This strikes me as an attempt to divert attention from strategy in the base game only, which is what I was discussing, because that is what we play.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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Almost all wonders from base game have better B sides (only exception may be Olympia, but it's stil arguable).

Let's take magnificient Ephesus B for example. It's advantages over side A:

1. 3rd stage is much more easier to build. With side A it's very propable that you won't be able to build 3rd stage at all. (Or it won't be worth building because you will have to lose additional card)

2. Side B gives you 1 more point, it's simple math. This can't be argued.

3. Side B gives you money as soon as 1st stage, this can be critical in many situations. With expansions it's even more important.


Similar points can be made about other wonders from base game, Ephesos is just very good example, where the difference is visible at first glance and easy to calculate.

And 2 side notes:

I. 3=1VP . That's simple, and it's never less than that. Of course if you mismanage your money by spending it when you had better options in hand, them it's completely your fault. I've seen players spend 8 gold to build a Palace, when they had much better options in hand...
It's just bad play, I can understand that, but I can't understand this statemant about Ephesos:

Quote:
I would probably take A over B if my neighbours had an opening resource I didn't need, in order to weaken the economy of the game.


What are you trying to say? How are you going to weaken economy by taking side A? Both side A and B have the same resource costs. Difference is that with B side you get money sooner. It doesn't mean that you have to throw them away into "the economy" as soon as possible. What does it mean is that you get more fexibility in your plays with your 1st stage, not second like with A side.

The other difference is that 3rd stage of B side is actually buildable and overall you will get 1VP/3 more than with side A. With again mean more flexibility. Remember you don't have to throw this extra coins into "economy", you can save them and be happy with VP they provide.

So Ben, could you once again explain me (and others) in detail, how are you going to: weaken the economy, maximize your chance of winning or even make a good decision by choosing side A of Ephesos that is so strictly inferior to the side B? It's hard to imagine for me, but maybe I'm missing something?

II.
Quote:
That's quite beside the point that it's impossible to play Mausoleum(Ephesos) A and Mausoleum(Ephesos) B in the same game, and therefore it doesn't actually prove anything.


How is this point relevent in any way for this debate?

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Greg Wilson
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Bristol
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Nikoms wrote:
2)Resource cards just built that turn do not produce resources that turn so thus may not be used by you or neighbors for production. They DO count toward special cards (Bazaar and Vineyard).

7)You may not spend coins to buy resources on the same turn they were earned.


I think the easier rule here is that you have to build with what you have available right now. You can't try to build hoping that extra money or resources will be available after cards are revealed.
 
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Greg Gresik
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Bolingbrook
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BlackSheep wrote:
Nikoms wrote:
2)Resource cards just built that turn do not produce resources that turn so thus may not be used by you or neighbors for production. They DO count toward special cards (Bazaar and Vineyard).

7)You may not spend coins to buy resources on the same turn they were earned.


I think the easier rule here is that you have to build with what you have available right now. You can't try to build hoping that extra money or resources will be available after cards are revealed.


Good point - updated point 7.
 
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Tables
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Ben, if you get a lot of money from Ephesos (yes I did mean Ephesos, not Halikarnassos, of course!), then there's nothing stopping you from not spending it. 3 money is one victory point that gives you the option of trading it away to get extra resources and the like. It's not mandatory.

If you're playing Ephesos B and you willingly take the money and blow it away quickly, then lose because your opponents have a better economy than you, then it's entirely your own fault. I'm not saying hoarding the money is a good idea, but the point is, money is 3 gold = 1 VP at the end of the game, nobody can take that away from you, AND it gives you extra options. It's strictly superior to 1 VP in every way.

Regarding difficulty to build, here are the stage costs for easy reference:
A:
2 Stone, 3 VPs
2 Wood, 9 coins
2 Paper, 7 VPs

B:
2 Stone, 2 VPs+4 coins
2 Wood, 3 VPs+4 coins
1 Paper, 1 Silk, 1 Glass, 5 VPs+4 coins

When I look at it like that, it really does blow me away how much better side B is. People have already made the argument for why 2 Paper is a terrible cost. The paper you build is totally worthless, and all it does is let you build the last stage of the Wonder. Really, you might end up taking one if you have a terrible hand and the alternative is discarding, but that's about it. Or if you get the Forum, but if you get the Forum, you can probably build side B perfectly fine.
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Ben Bateson
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I'm getting a bit tired of banging on this same old point, but every argument that has been posted states that 3 = 1VP.

THIS IS ONLY TRUE AT THE FINAL SCORING

It is not the case during the game, and until Jacek, Martin etc acknowledge the fact then this debate cannot go any further.

Every argument I have seen is attempting to mathematically prove that Side B is better, with no appreciation that there is dynamic between you, the neighbouring Wonders and indeed the people at the other end of the table. You simply cannot carry out 'what would be of most VP benefit' calculations without acknowledging that this is an interactive game.
 
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J
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Alexandria
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I was under the impression that the discussion that we were having was specifically related to whether Side A of Ephusus is inferior to side B of Ephusus with my position being it is and your position being it isn't. Therefore I've assumed every point you've brought up has been somewhat relevant to this specific discussion and I've done my best to interpret them as such. Seeing how your previous post doesn't actually address anything relevant to whether Side A is inferior to side B or bring up new points I believe that my position has been sufficiently argued and clearly shown by both me and other people here and that there really isn't much more I need to add to what has been said.


I.
ousgg wrote:
allstar64 wrote:


"Although at the end of the game 3=1VP during the game it's less than that because you'll mismanage your money in such a way that it will help your opponents more than it will help you."

...

Quote:
Non of the gamers I've played with, not even the beginners, have such a poor understanding of their money that they end up helping their opponents more with it than they help themselves.


I'm not even sure what this means. I don't think it's even possible to gift someone a win by giving them lots of money.


I don't know how you can be unsure of what it means when you were the one who originally brought it up. You said:

ousgg wrote:

Therefore, control of money in Ages I & II is much more than just a VP conversion. There is no 'golden law' that dictates that 3=1VP throughout the entire game. If I earn money early, who is most likely to end up with it? My neighbours. Maybe I'll get 50% back, but unlikely if I've been neglecting resources by pissing about with my Wonder.


Again I'll remind everyone that we are talking about the merits of Ephusus side A vs Ephusus side B which is why I assumed that you were making this statement in an attempt to support your position that Ephusus side A is not inferior to Ephusus side B cause if you were not doing so than this statement would merely be an attempt to divert attention from the discussion at hand.

As such I did my best to interpret this statement that you yourself made in such a way that it was relevant to our discussion and supported your position that Ephusus side A is not always inferior to Ephusus side B. Since you talk about early money and Ephusus side B gives you early money while Ephusus side A does not the only interpretation of your statements which makes sense is that you believe that early money is bad because as you yourself said "If I earn money early, who is most likely to end up with it? My neighbours. Maybe I'll get 50% back, but unlikely if I've been neglecting resources by pissing about with my Wonder."

Note I do not think this at all. This is just my attempt at understanding what you yourself said previously which was why I addressed it.


II.
ousgg wrote:

Why are you suddenly introducing Leaders and Cities into the discussion? This strikes me as an attempt to divert attention from strategy in the base game only, which is what I was discussing, because that is what we play.


You're joking right? In your arguments on whether side A of a particular wonder is better than side B you were the one who said

ousgg wrote:

(by the way, our house rule is that you can look at your opening hand before picking Side A or Side B, which increases the strategy level in Age I)

Therefore, if I pick up a hand of science cards in Age I and have a wonder that produces a manufactured good, it is in my own best interests to weaken the economy of the game. I can't deprive others of the cards themselves, but I can deprive them of the ability to buy them.


Which at best is an unofficial variant that I personally do not know anyone else who plays with. However when I talk about official expansions in regards to your unofficial variant all of a sudden I'm the one making an attempt to divert attention. Nowhere in this thread did anyone, not even you say that were were only talking about the base game and even if we were you were the one who first de-railed that by bringing up an unofficial variant and using that in your argument on the merrits of Side A vs Side B

III

ousgg wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of banging on this same old point, but every argument that has been posted states that 3 = 1VP.

THIS IS ONLY TRUE AT THE FINAL SCORING


Yes which means that 3 = 1VP is your WORST POSSIBLE RETURN on any money you get as long as you manage your money properly. If I have a card that gives me 9 gold and 1 that gives me 3 vp that are effectively identical in every other way I'm going to play the one that gives my 9 gold cause the worst case scenario is I don't spend the money and I earn 3 vp from it anyway.

Hence from this we can conclude that to a competent player who doesn't mismanage his money 3 is at worst 1VP at any point in the game since the worst return you can get from it is not spending it at all.
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