$10.00
Recommend
18 
 Thumb up
 Hide
98 Posts
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4  | 

Android: Netrunner» Forums » Rules

Subject: Trashing primer: When can you trash your own cards? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mathieu B.
Canada
Brossard
Quebec
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
When the corp trash an ICE or when an ICE get trashed by Parasite, does the ICE above it move down in the spot the trashed was or does the above ICE stay in his place, leaving the trashed ICE place available for a new ICE?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Brooks
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mb
beam1306 wrote:
When the corp trash an ICE or when an ICE get trashed by Parasite, does the ICE above it move down in the spot the trashed was or does the above ICE stay in his place, leaving the trashed ICE place available for a new ICE?


Installed ice always becomes the outermost. It would have to explictly say that a spot is left open or something for you to do otherwise.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Theo Seretis
Greece
flag msg tools
mb
BoShek wrote:
hunk wrote:
To further prove the point, program cards are obviously meant to represent programs, and MU is your hard drive space.
Say you had an 4GB disk, and Battering Ram and Magnum Opus had filled up that space, how would you even install a Parasite?
Your computer, or console if you like, would obviously give you a "no space available".
And then you would choose to do what the game rules say you should.
Uninstall something, clear some space, and then install whatever you want.

For a lot of tech-savvy people this should have been a no-brainer.


Although this makes sense in the context of real life, but this is a game so "real life rules" don't have to apply.


They don't have to, but since the game is kinda-based on real life it does, and it makes sense why it should.

BoShek wrote:

As much sense as that makes, and I agree that is what the rules where trying to indicate instead they say :
The Runner cannot have programs installed that have a combined memory cost greater than his available memory units (MU).

Now this could be interpreted to mean that you cannot install a program to exceed your availible MU. This is a logical conclusion to draw especially due to its basis in read life.


With you so far.

BoShek wrote:
Part of the confusion for me at least was because of the sentences that followed include:
If the MU costs of the Runner’s installed programs ever exceed his available MU, he must trash his installed programs until he is no longer exceeding his available MU.

This seems to me that you could create the situation of having installed too many programs. And then you can choose to trash something.


You can't create that situation yourself by over-installing, but there may be times when you put yourself into it, like losing/pawning a Mem-Chip or something similar.
Also, we might see cards that destroy hardware.

BoShek wrote:
To add to this, they appear to also be giving you the option to trash something before or after installing the program since they also say:
The Runner can choose to trash any number of his installed programs at the beginning of an install program action.


Again it makes perfect sense thematically.You spend a click(time) to install something.At the same time you also clear out some other unwanted programs.
Which is what I would do if I wanted to install Skyrim but didn't have enough space and had to uninstall Fallout first.

BoShek wrote:
Oh course this could have been resolved if they had specifically said:
"The runner cannot install or maintain a number of programs that exceeds his available MU. The Runner can choose to trash any number of his installed programs at the beginning of an install program action. If the MU costs of the Runner's installed programs ever excedes his available MU, he must trash a his installed programs until he is no longer exceeding his avaiable MU."


Which is just a rephrase of those 2 separate rules above.

BoShek wrote:
Still, if you are even vaguely familiar with how computer memory works you would interpret that you cannont install to create a situation where you have not enough MU but it doesn't explicitly say that. For a game that is intended to have tournaments and competative events, they need to be explicit about things like this.


The Runner cannot have programs installed that have a combined memory cost greater than his available memory units (MU).

I don't know how more explicit they could have been.Like IirionClaus said, this has turned into Bible class with everyone reading into the rules like they want to.

The only way they have strayed from real life is the need to monitor where every program is installed.And let me explain what I mean.

You start the game with a simple computer that only has 4MU, and you begin installing programs.Later on you buy a Mem-Chip and add it to the rig.You now have 1MU free from your base computer and an extra 1MU from the mem-chip,and you install Magnum Opus.What happens if the Mem-chip melts?
Do you lose MO?Technically it shouldn't work because part of it was stored in the now non-working Mem-Chip.
Instead the game says you can choose to thrash something that only costs 1MU.
This was obviously done so there wouldn't be a need to track where everything was installed.
Can you imagine having to remember through the use of tokens, where everything was installed?It would be a mess, especially with cards that host tokens themselves.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Killjoy
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
hunk wrote:
Also, we might see cards that destroy hardware.


We already have...

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/netrunner/android-netrun...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Kansas
flag msg tools
hunk wrote:
You can't create that situation yourself by over-installing, but there may be times when you put yourself into it, like losing/pawning a Mem-Chip or something similar.


So what you're saying is: you can't create an illegal situation yourself, unless you create an illegal situation yourself.

You either can or cannot put yourself into an illegal card situation.
Pick one.

If you want to send that M.U. program to Aesop's, then the corp player gets to choose what program gets trashed when it puts you into an illegal situation.
Random draw of the installed programs is fine; no need to let them take the most obvious program to hurt you.

hunk wrote:
I don't know how more explicit they could have been.Like IirionClaus said, this has turned into Bible class with everyone reading into the rules like they want to.


Couldn't agree more.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Killjoy
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
You forgot to make "by over-installing" nice and big like the rest...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trevor Schadt
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
JayKilljoy wrote:
You forgot to make "by over-installing" nice and big like the rest...
I don't think (he/she) "forgot" so much as "omitted it because that part goes against my argument."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Killjoy
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
ryudoowaru wrote:
JayKilljoy wrote:
You forgot to make "by over-installing" nice and big like the rest...
I don't think (he/she) "forgot" so much as "omitted it because that part goes against my argument."


I know
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Killjoy
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I don't understand this obsession with making up a rule that just isn't there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gregory Pettigrew
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
BoShek wrote:
Although this makes sense in the context of real life, but this is a game so "real life rules" don't have to apply.

As much sense as that makes, and I agree that is what the rules where trying to indicate instead they say :
The Runner cannot have programs installed that have a combined memory cost greater than his available memory units (MU).

Now this could be interpreted to mean that you cannot install a program to exceed your availible MU. This is a logical conclusion to draw especially due to its basis in read life. Part of the confusion for me at least was because of the sentences that followed include:
If the MU costs of the Runner’s installed programs ever exceed his available MU, he must trash his installed programs until he is no longer exceeding his available MU.

This seems to me that you could create the situation of having installed too many programs. And then you can choose to trash something. To add to this, they appear to also be giving you the option to trash something before or after installing the program since they also say:
The Runner can choose to trash any number of his installed programs at the beginning of an install program action.

Oh course this could have been resolved if they had specifically said:
"The runner cannot install or maintain a number of programs that exceeds his available MU. The Runner can choose to trash any number of his installed programs at the beginning of an install program action. If the MU costs of the Runner's installed programs ever excedes his available MU, he must trash a his installed programs until he is no longer exceeding his avaiable MU."


Correct. The problems with board/card game rulebooks usually stem from the differences between Rules as Intended (RAI) and Rules as Written (RAW). Due to the iterative nature of playtesting, it's functionally impossible to publish the rulebook with enough playtesting done under the version of rules that ends up going to print.

Quote:
Still, if you are even vaguely familiar with how computer memory works you would interpret that you cannont install to create a situation where you have not enough MU but it doesn't explicitly say that. For a game that is intended to have tournaments and competative events, they need to be explicit about things like this.


LOL. Never heard of a RAM drive, have you?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yan
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
etherial wrote:
LOL. Never heard of a RAM drive, have you?

Actually, I have. It is possible to create a virtual drive by reserving RAM space for it. Effectively creating a RAM drive.

I installed a video game in a RAM drive once as an experiment. Man oh man, bye bye loading time. What the hell is loading time ? Several times faster than SDDs.

Naturally, once you power off the comp the drive and everything it is vanish.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh
United States
Rohnert Park
California
flag msg tools
mb
BoShek wrote:
Still, if you are even vaguely familiar with how computer memory works you would interpret that you cannont install to create a situation where you have not enough MU but it doesn't explicitly say that.


Technically, you dont install a program into memory--you install it onto a hard drive and then it runs in memory (excepting some edge cases).

Even if you ignore that, the way memory works is that when you try to run a program that there is not enough memory for, it still runs, just the oldest allocated memory gets pushed off to the page file.

This is more similar to installing a program and then trashing other programs to make room for it.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Theo Seretis
Greece
flag msg tools
mb
JayKilljoy wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
JayKilljoy wrote:
You forgot to make "by over-installing" nice and big like the rest...
I don't think (he/she) "forgot" so much as "omitted it because that part goes against my argument."


I know


You know, I was going to quote him, and make the "by over-installing" part of the text even bigger, underlined, highlighted, with little twinkly stars and animated gifs and what not, and then I realized I don't care anymore.
I'm probably never going to play with him, and there's nothing I can do to change his mind.
But then this little gem comes up.

Wyphy wrote:

If you want to send that M.U. program to Aesop's, then the corp player gets to choose what program gets trashed when it puts you into an illegal situation.
Random draw of the installed programs is fine; no need to let them take the most obvious program to hurt you.


I just don't know where to start with this.

1)Mem-chip is a hardware that gives you extra MU, not a program.
2)The corp only gets to trash your programs when it is the effect of an unbroken sub-routine or another of his cards effects.
Even if he played Power Grid Overload(thanks Jay, I had forgotten about it) you would still choose the program you would have to trash, not him.
3)There is never random program discarding in the game.If the corp can trash a program through an ICE sub-routine,or other means, he can and will most likely trash the most obvious program.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Kansas
flag msg tools
Yep, sorry, I made a mistake there, it is indeed hardware; I obviously wasn't quite awake yet.
Guess that invalidates the point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
BT Carpenter
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Wyphy wrote:
hunk wrote:
You can't create that situation yourself by over-installing, but there may be times when you put yourself into it, like losing/pawning a Mem-Chip or something similar.


So what you're saying is: you can't create an illegal situation yourself, unless you create an illegal situation yourself.

You either can or cannot put yourself into an illegal card situation.
Pick one.


You cannot put yourself into an illegal MU situation during the act of an install of a program.

You can put yourself into an illegal MU situation due to the destruction/pawning of something that grants you MU above the 4 alloted to your rig at the beginning of the game.

You can be put into an illegal MU situation when the Corp trashes hardware that grants MU.

You can be put into an illegal MU situation if the Corp or Runner trashes a resource/hardware that grants link if using the 'cloud' icebreaker that is 0 MU with 2 link and the trashed resource takes you from 2 (or more) to 1 (or less) link.

There are plenty of situations where the Runner's currently used MU can suddenly exceed their available MU and there is no contradiction in the quoted statement above, because they happen at different times in reaction to different actions or triggers.

Quote:
If you want to send that M.U. program to Aesop's, then the corp player gets to choose what program gets trashed when it puts you into an illegal situation.
Random draw of the installed programs is fine; no need to let them take the most obvious program to hurt you.


Sorry - with the exception of Subroutines that state 'trash a Program', the Runner picks per the rules on page 15 "If the MU costs of the Runner's installed programs ever exceed his available MU, he must trash his installed programs until he is no longer exceeding his available MU". These are clearly Runner decisions.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Theo Seretis
Greece
flag msg tools
mb
Wyphy wrote:
Yep, sorry, I made a mistake there, it is indeed hardware; I obviously wasn't quite awake yet.
Guess that invalidates the point.


No confusing a hardware with a program doesn't invalidate your claim automatically.It does however show a misunderstanding of the basic game terms.
And that was the least of your errors.See clarifications 2 & 3 on my previous post, or Byron's reply directly above.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Kansas
flag msg tools
As I said, I apparently wasn't quite awake yet, so it wasn't a misunderstanding of game terms so much as just a brainfart.

As for the rest, I suppose I should have known that no one was likely to guess the sarcasm and tongue in cheek nature of the suggestion that when the Corp trashes your Mem Chip, you choose what to uninstall, so when you choose to trash the Mem Chip, they choose.

Again, my mistake.
I'll just quietly back out of the room.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Theo Seretis
Greece
flag msg tools
mb
Wyphy wrote:
As I said, I apparently wasn't quite awake yet, so it wasn't a misunderstanding of game terms so much as just a brainfart.


As for the rest, I suppose I should have known that no one was likely to guess the sarcasm and tongue in cheek nature of the suggestion that when the Corp trashes your Mem Chip, you choose what to uninstall, so when you choose to trash the Mem Chip, they choose.

Again, my mistake.
I'll just quietly back out of the room.[/q]

You can't really expect me to know that right?
I corrected you not in spite, but because I thought you were confused.

As far as sarcasm goes, it's hard enough to understand it IRL, let alone in a forum, especially if the sarcastic text is not accompanied by a winky face, or something similar.
You know?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yan
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Android: Netrunner » Forums » Rules
Re: Trashing primer: When can you trash your own cards?
There was quite a bit of discussion about max MU, installed programs and card trashing. So I went ahead a submitted the 3 following questions to get an official answers to all angles of this subject.

1) If I have Akamatsu mem chip installed and 5 MU worth of programs. Can I use Aesop's Pawnshop to trash Akamatsu mem chip and then be forced to trash a program to bring my MU total down to 4 ? Or is trashing Akamatsu mem chip with Aesop is an illegal action because it create an illegal situation ?

2) On the same subject, is the corp allowed to use Powergrid overload to trash Akamatsu mem chip ? Or would it also be illegal because it create an illegal situation ?

3) If you are already at maximum MU usage, can you install a program anyways and then immediately be forced to trash a program to go back down to maximum MU usage ? Would it triggers "when a program is installed" triggers ? Or is it illegal because it create a illegal situation ?

Lukas Litzsinger wrote:
Thanks for the questions.

1. Yes, you can trash the Mem Chip and then trash a program to maintain a legal rig.

2. Yes, the Corp can trash the Chip and this may result in the Runner trashing a program.

3. Before you install a program you can trash any number of programs. So if you are at your max, you state that you are installing, trash anything to make room for it, and then install the new program.

Hope that helps!


Hopefully, this will convince those who might not agree with the general consensus.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Kansas
flag msg tools
Unfortunately for me I don't agree with that.

I don't believe you should be allowed to purposely put yourself into an illegal situation.
That's counterintuitive and wrong to me.

The corp trashing something to make your setup illegal? Yep, totally makes sense, after all, you can trash their stuff too.

At max and want to install? Yep, say "I'm going to install but I'm trashing XXX to make room", do it then install the new card.

That's the way it reads in the rules, and I've always agreed with the latter two.

I guess the HMFIC made the ruling so...

Besides, why do that anyway? Makes no sense to me.
Trash two cards for 3 credits or trash two cards for 6 credits?
I'd rather have the credits, but whatever turns you on.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mat Nowak
Canada
Halifax
Nova Scotia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Wyphy wrote:
Besides, why do that anyway? Makes no sense to me.
Trash two cards for 3 credits or trash two cards for 6 credits?
I'd rather have the credits, but whatever turns you on.

Aesop's Pawnshop only allows you to trash one installed card for 3 credits when your turn begins.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yan
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Mateui wrote:
Aesop's Pawnshop only allows you to trash one installed card for 3 credits when your turn begins.

You may not realize but that does not answer his real question.

As for myself, I can't think of any reasons why you would to do that. Maybe new cards will bring a situation were this ruling would mater.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Kansas
flag msg tools
Mateui wrote:
Aesop's Pawnshop only allows you to trash one installed card for 3 credits when your turn begins.


I'm fully aware of that.
It'd take you two turns to get those 6 credits, but the point is still the same:
Trash two cards for 3 credits
Vs.
Trash two cards for 6 credits

I know what I'll choose.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4  | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.