Question pretty much says it all!
Just wondering if when you initiate a build that completes a wonder and get the 'Extra Turn' as your bonus is you can play it right away to immediately take another turn or not.

I don't know.

It comes down to a question I have:

Do you score the wonder immediately after the chip has been acquired? Or do you finish the player's turn first?

If the player's turn is completely finished before scoring the wonder, then, since everyone has drawn the action card, she can't take his second turn, so she can't play the card. If the wonder is scored immediately after the chip is acquired, then she should be allowed to play it.

Well, I think we have this figured out. When the rulebook lists the sequence of a turn, it puts drawing the action card after scoring the wonder and drawing replacement cards, so I don't think you could use the extra turn right away.

I'm not so sure. The English rulebook I have makes no mention of getting new cards during the scoring section - only in the "end of turn" section. So if you were to insert scoring as an optional step between build and end of turn you should be able to use the extra turn card.

-MMM

Well, our reasoning is based on the fact that when you use the extra turn card, players do not get to draw a building card for the "first" turn, and only get a building card after the "second" turn. Since you don't receive the action card until after you've already received your building card, it seemed like using it then would go against the rules of the action card.

Where does it say that you draw building cards before drawing the action card? I don't see it anywhere in the section for scoring the wonder, where drawing action cards is mentioned. And wonder scoring takes place immediately after the final chip is built, which takes place before drawing new building cards.

-MMM

This probably needs to be sent in to Rio Grande for an answer. The rules don't actually say WHEN you score a completed wonder. Nowhere does it say 'immediately' after the final chip is built. Since the build section (where you move tokens/chits) does not say anything about stopping to score the completed building. AND since the build technically isn't complete until the End of Build turn (when cards are returned to the discard pile to pay for it), I can easily see the argument of inference that scoring is done at the end of a turn when a wonder has been completed versus interrupting the end of build turn process.

I myself would tend for the latter since I believe a rule should say it interrupts the process in order to actually interrupt it. And virtually every game I have seen that does this makes a point of saying 'scoring is done immediately'.

I agree with MMM here. The "Scoring" section of the rules may not explicitly state when it takes place in a formal sequence of play, but it does say "When the last building disk for a Wonder is scored."

That makes the sequence:

1. Select disk, make offers. Or pass, skipping steps 2 & 3.

2. Select offers and score the disk.

3. Score the Wonder if that was the last disk. This would include taking the Action Card.

4. Player with Double turn card has option to take another turn.

5. End of turn and each player takes a card.

That way it doesn't matter if the Double turn card was already in a players hand, or if he just drew it.

Yes, they do.

Scoring

When the last building disc for a wonder is fulfilled, this wonder is scored.




It doesn't have to say it explicitly. When the condition is fulfilled, scoring happens. That is what the rules say.

If you deny that "immediately" is an implied part of that rule, and since the rules also do not say that scoring occurs at the end of the build turn, then you have to say that scoring occurs at some unspecified time after a wonder is complete. This opens up a whole other can of worms. If I take the last disc but scoring does not have to happen right then, but can occur at some nebulous future time, can I defer scoring until after other wonders have been completed and scored, thus boosting the point total?

Yet another problem with the "it doesn't say this in the rules" argument is that, if that is valid, then it is questionable whether you can ever play a double turn card at all. It doesn't say in either the Pass or Build sections that if a double turn card is played, that all players do not take a card at the end of the turn. Thus, by your argument there is no interruption in these turns, so everyone still takes a card. But if everyone takes a card, then you can't play a double turn card because no one can take a card until the second turn is done. So the double turn cards can never come into play and are worthless.



That's because scoring is not part of the build turn per se. It only occurs as a result of actions in some build turns, as is explicitly stated in the scoring section.



The end of the build turn is not a condition of scoring, so whether the build turn is done is irrelevant.



Except that waiting until the build turn ends would violate the rule that says scoring is done when the last building disc for a wonder is fulfilled. You would be doing the scoring after other actions have been taken subsequent to the last disc being fulfilled.

Another problem with this interpretation would arise from use of the double turn card (if it can be played at all). If someone completed two wonders as a result, which one scores first? By your logic, they are both completed simultaneously at the end of the build turn. So how do you assign priority? There is nothing in the rules that would put one above the other, if your interpretation is correct.



The usual caveats regarding being able to play a game any way you want apply here. However, when using rules that go against those as written, alterations are not the same as the standard rules.

Also, when interpreting rules, if the plain language if followed would result in a smooth game, but an alternate interpretation (particularly one based on something that isn't there) would lead to problems, it is wiser to follow the rules as written instead of demanding every possible contingency be explicitly spelled out.

It says in the rules that "The active player takes the building disc used in this build and places it face down in his play area." However, it does not continue and say "where other players may not turn it over" or "where other players may not take it and add it to their own holdings." Yet the absence of these statements is not a good argument for my tunring over other players' discs or taking them from those players.

Likewise, because the rules do not redundantly add the word "immediately" to the scoring criteria, that is not a valid argument that they implicitly include the opportunity to postpone scoring to some undefined time in the future.

The rules are clear about what happens and in what order. In the case of the original question, it would be thus:

1. Build occurs.
2. Last disc of wonder is fulfilled. This triggers a scoring.
3. Scoring is done for wonder.
4. As part of scoring, active player draws a card.
5. If it is a double turn card, player could play it now since the build turn is not complete.
6. The build turn is completed.
7. If the double turn card was played then the active player chooses another turn, which is carried out.
8. After that, or if a double build is not played, players pick a card.

>Yes, they do.

>Scoring

>When the last building disc for a wonder is fulfilled, this wonder is >scored.

Right. I guess I have a problem in that all the PAYMENT for completion (ie paying cards) is in the next section - and so to my thinking the wonder wasn't actually completed until all the cards are payed (and sent to the discard pile).

In any event, a clarification from Jay supports that you get the action card prior to the end of your turn.

It just would have been organized a LOT better to put the Wonder complete scoring ABOVE the end of turn. Easy just to move the paragraph up and call it 4a. Then there would have been no question about the sequence (note that I wasn't the person who started this thread with the question) at all, and you don't have two extra steps as in your sequence below.

Not trying to make anything intentionally difficult.

BTW, I don't really believe a sarcastic comment was warranted. Certainly not when all I said was that it would be nice to get a ruling from the publisher, especially when he puts an e-mail address on the back saying to send in questions.

So in simple terms we are saying that Scoring is part of a build turn WHEN a Wonder is completed. Therefore the active player takes an action card then his turn ends at which point he may use the Double Turn card just picked up.

Correct?

The rules are improperly worded in my opinion. Not incorrect, just more confusing than they need to be. Your TURN is everything you do until the play passes to the next player. During that TURN you take an ACTION--build or pass. As a result of that ACTION, a wonder might be scored, and you may earn a bonus card. The ACTION is over, the TURN is not. You may now play the "extra turn" card to take another ACTION. Only at the end of your TURN does everyone draw another card. Therefore:

TURN
(
ACTION
(
BUILD,
SCORE_DISC,
SCORE_WONDER,
DRAW_BONUS_CARD
)
PLAY_BONUS_CARD,
ACTION
(
PASS,
DRAW_CARD
)
)
ALL_PLAYERS_DRAW_A_CARD

It makes me wonder...Can you play 2 successive "double turn" cards to get 3 ACTIONS in a row? I think they should be called "EXTRA TURN" or "EXTRA ACTION" cards.

The rule rads that "The active player can take a second turn after he finishes his turn." (Emphasis added)

So strictly by the rules, no. One extra turn is all you can get.

It is worth observing that when people complain aout the rules to complex games, such as wargames, part of the problem is the length of the rules. It is simply easier to find things in a shorter rules book.

But the rules for this game are as (or more) disorganized than many of the complex hex-and-counter games. It is still a great game, IMO. But I can think of games with 40 full pages of rules that are better organized.

Scoring doesn't happen after a turn is over. As cited above, it happens when the last disk of any wonder is built.

The player's turn is not over until everyone draws a new card.



Feel free to send Jay an e-mail at riogames@aol.com, but this one is pretty clear in the rules themselves.

You may be right, but the confusion that results in 15 posts on the question (not to mention the application of two or three steps of logic to get the "clear" answer) makes me think it's not that clear in the rules.

Not to be too pedantic, but this would be clear: