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K A
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060708
I have never seen Twilight Struggle but the theme and game play description appeals to me but there are a few factors that have kept me from buying so please convince me to buy and all will be okay :-)

1) USSR advantage - in reading about TS here, it seems that the USSR has a very strong advantage with new players and a strong advantage among veteran players. Is this true? If so, is there a variant to correct for this?

2) Game Length - Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against longer games in general but finding a person who will play a 2 player, board game, that is themed with politics, during the cold war enough times to learn the rules, card combos and strategy could be a big challenge.

Are there scenarios/variants that allow for somewhat shorter games? For example, set up the board thus and remove x,y,z cards and play from there?

Thanks
Colin Hunter
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060708
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/161090
check this thread for starters.
Firstly the USSR is much easier to play, whether it wins more between players of even skill is another question (I may very well). I don't mind it at all personally it has a number of advantages. Firstly Asymetric play makes the game more interesting. When I teach the game I let newbs play the USSR as they usually last a bit longer and the strategy is a bit easier. There doesn't need to be a varient to correct this as it isn't broken, its part of the game. In tournaments you can bid VP to choose what side you play, eliminating any marginal advantage. The thing I have found about the game is that is determined almost always by player skill first. While luck and side matter, they matter much less than you might expect.

Game length. The game is quite long the first few times you play. Now that I am a bit more experienced (13 games so far) and I am used to the game it usually takes under 2 hours to get a result against another experienced player.

The game is deep enought that it doesn't need varients. All i can say is this is the most richly rewarding 2 player game I have ever played, except maybe go. Seriously the unscripted nature of the game and depth of strategy is an amazing accomplishment.
Josh K.
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060708
You should buy it. It's great.

There probably is a small bias towards the Soviets, especially in the earlier parts of the game. But this in no way means that the game is broken or is less enjoyable because of it. There are almost infinite hands that can be dealt, and the theme of TS really ought to be "making the best out of a bad situation." Both opponents are striving mightily to massage an advantage out of a deck that can be cruel and heartless. If one desires, bids can be taken at the start of the game to give one side or the other a few points. I'm not sure it's necessary. Generally the early game is all damage control for the US, but the deck is more favorable to the US as the game progresses. Don't let this issue stop you from playing this great game.

Your learning games will probably take about 3 to 4 hours, but after you get the flow they can last anywhere from 45 minutes to about 2 1/2 hours. There are no variants for a shorter game, but many games do not go the full 10 Turns (see below).

It's worth saying that there is an excellent, excellent online version of TS at The Wargameroom. It is real time, and games generally take from 30 minutes to about 2 hours. These games are faster because the book-keeping is automated. There is an active TS league ongoing at The Wargameroom and I am very interested to see the statistics in regards to US/USSR win/loss ratios once the hundreds of scheduled games have been played. One thing that is already apparent is that most games are ending by autovictory (i.e. points going to -20 to +20) or ending by defcon victory. In other words these games are ending before Turn 10, and are thus shorter.

Buy it. You know you want to....
Jeff Thompson
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07
If you don't buy it, you'll be black-listed.
suPUR-DUEper
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0708
I can't add much to the other posts except to add to the weight of the solid arguments they have presented.

TS plays pretty quick, usually around a couple of hours. And your turn is only a minute away...

I have not seen the USSR bias. However, it does seem that in the games I have played, the USSR tends to win the short ones, and the US the longer ones....

Due to the relatively short game time, it is not uncommon to play a couple of games in one sitting. Even if you find it does have a USSR bias, you can always swap sides and see if you can do it better/faster than the other guy....

Also, this game is relatively easy to learn and keeps unfolding new secrets every time you play....

Ask Not What This Game Can Do For You.....
brian
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060708
I would suggest that you go to GMTgames.com and download the rules. You will be surprised at how short the actual rules are and can read them and pretty much grasp them in their entirity before you play.

From what I have noticed, the USSR has more of an advantage in the early war, then a fairly balanced mid-war, and then a slight US gain in the late war. And the late war is tricky because most of the cards don't get played as opposed to the other decks - so the late game seems to fairly random. Any advantage picked up by the USSR player in the beginning seems to be neutralized towards the end. In fact, in every game I have played so far, the game has been a struggle back and forth and around the 8th round, the score is usually 0.

As far as game play, what is "long" for you? Can you play a quick pick up game in an hour, probably never. That's the short end of what I expect a 2-player game. TS seems to last around 2.5 hours. That's a good time frame to me. Plus the game is tense and the time flies so it never feels like it was long, even when it drags out to 3 hours.

Though this is a political themed game, it doesn't have the "politics" one would expect such as diplomacy and trading and stuff like that. It really is a simple mechanic that blends well with its theme. If you know anyone with the sliggtest interest in modern history or grew up in any of the decades represented, they will go for this game. (My girlfriend is leary of "war" games and won't touch political/diplomacy games - but she can't get enough of this game - she was even dreaming about it every night between out first and second play!)

I just bought this game a little over a month ago. I had my eye on it for a long time and kept pushing it down on the priority list. That was a mistake! I wish I would have bought it way back when and would have had a lot more games in. I doubt you will be disappointed!
David Grim
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05
The theme is unlike any other game out there, much less one I have in my closet. It's excellent! Buy it - you won't be disappointed.
suPUR-DUEper
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0708
BrianMola wrote:


(My girlfriend....she can't get enough of this game - she was even dreaming about it every night...!)



My old defintion of mixed emotions was "seeing your mother in law drive over a cliff in your new Porsche". I think you have just replaced that. :D
Ken Shin
One question: Does the game allow you to stay in it until the end or will you know during the early/middle part of the game who the clear winner will be?
Josh K.
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060708
dvader123 wrote:
One question: Does the game allow you to stay in it until the end or will you know during the early/middle part of the game who the clear winner will be?


It ain't over til it's over.

While it's true that sometimes the position of one player is overwhelmingly better than the other, and when coupled with a good score makes the outcome likely, surprises are very, very common. The tide can turn quickly and decisively. Also the fact that the game can be won (or lost) entirely on defcon and in Europe means that there can be delightful/nasty surprises.

I suspect your question is: Is this one of those games where you can tell who is going to win within 15 minutes, followed by three hours of boredom while the damn thing runs its course?

The answer is: No.
Go Colts!!!!
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BrianMola wrote:
(My girlfriend is leary of "war" games and won't touch political/diplomacy games - but she can't get enough of this game - she was even dreaming about it every night between out first and second play!)


Hey that is me! Really this is one of my favorite games. The cards keep the game flowing while allowing you to be creative with your stratagy.
Time actually does fly, right when you think you need a break it is time for a new phase of war. By that time your excited to see what new cards you could get!

Plus you get to brush up on your World History! Having fun and learning!
Now it just doesn't get much better than that!
Last edited on 2007-04-30 15:08:16 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
brian
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060708
dvader123 wrote:
One question: Does the game allow you to stay in it until the end or will you know during the early/middle part of the game who the clear winner will be?

Yes. The first game I played I was the US and down the entire game. My opponent never got it to the 20 points to end the game early and I amanged to win it after final scoreing by just a few VPs.

Last game we played, I was US again. This time Russia never managed to get the Victory marker past 0. But this time I couldn't close the deal. USSR won out in final scoring.

You are engaged the entire time.