Does anyone know why i can't post this in the reviews thread???

I love C&C:A, by miles the best game i have ever played. So i bought battlelore as it is the same system. For pretty much all the reasons john mentions in the other thread, i found it dissapointing compared to CCA.

I now wish to buy a WW2 game. The obvious contenders are M44, TOI and CCE. If i explain what i am looking for and why I think each of these will or will not suit me, please give me your opinions...

What i am looking for :-

I want a quick fun simple game that has to have real hidden depth and "Strategy/Tactics" such as we have in CCA. I also MUCH prefer miniatures or blocks to card counters

CCE- no miniatures and the rules look quite nit picky and confusing, so no i don't think this is for me.

M44 - The obvious contender as it is C&C series. BUT many people believe battlelore is simpler than CCA and M44 is simpler than Battlelore. On the positive side M44 seems different to CCA or Battlelore in that it is ranged combat not melee, and that really annoying rule in Battlelore about keeping units in threes to make them bold is not relevant.

TOI - This is a longer game than M44 but maybe not too much. It is a different system altogether.

So would i prefer TOI or M44, or something completely different.

I am really interested in opinions from anyone who loves CCA, as that implies we have some similarities in what we like in a game. Hence why i posted on this forum rather than TOI or M44 forums

Ta

Andy

i own both memoir and toi but if i had to pick one of the two i would probably go for toi as it has a more in depth feel and strategy to the game.I love all the c and c games and have them all as well so im not knocking memoir i just think that going by what you want in a ww2 game toi would be the way to go.To put it simply if you want an easy to play and quick ww2 game memoirs the one,if you want something thats slightly harder with more in depth rules and longer game play then go for toi.

Combat Commander: Europe for me is the best WW2 wargame at the moment.
With your favourite Commands & Colors: Ancients it has in common that it's card driven. Both play very differently though. The rules are not that much more complicated, even though it might look so at first. The game can be very frustrating when you have a lousy hand of cards but the same seems to happen to the opponent as well. Basically you always have to adapt to what you have in your hand which is what you might like so much in the C&C:Ancients game?

If you like blocks over counters try Rommel in the Desert. This is a lot more complicated than the above so maybe you could consider Victory or EastFront? All three are very good WW2 games IMHO.

As for Memoir'44. Personally I prefer C&C:Ancients over that one.

If the maximum amount of time you can play is 2 hours, than ToI may not be a good choice, as I suspect it takes longer (3-4 hours min.).

Most good WWII games will require an afternoon to play, which means 3-4 hours. If you are willing to invest that much time, and like miniatures, then ToI it should be. In the case of CC:E, not only does it use cardboard counters, but there are no vehicles in the game (yet). On the other hand, the ToI rules appears to be very similar to Axis & Allies Miniatures, without the annoying special ability for EACH unit (let alone the outrageous price due to it being a collectible game).

Denis,

Sorry yes, lack of vehicles does put me off of CCE as well.

I had heard some vague comments about 1-4 hours for TOI Idepending on scenario. 3-4 seems quite a lot for that type of game. I reckon the absoloute maximum I could go for is 2 hours plus setup.

Me I don't mind playing all day and all night, but there are other practicalities in life

Andy

Hi Andy. I play all three of these games (CC:E, TOI, M'44) and they're all good in their own way.

M'44: Frankly if you found Battlelore a notch below CC:A (I love CC:A) I'm right there with you. I think M'44 is a notch below Battlelore--not that M'44 isn't a great game. I just think it will leave you wanting after coming from CC:A.

TOI: If you have your heart set on mini's then this might be your cup of tea. Be forewarned though, this game is isn't a cake-walk. It is not card driven, so in some ways you have more decisions to make. It will take much longer to set up and play than M'44 or CC:A. It's quick and simple only compared to other wargames like Lock 'n Load or ASL. While not huge, it is a significant step up from CC:A to play TOI in a competent fashion.

CC:E: This is my personal favorite of the three (with CC:E and CC:A being my top two games of late), so I'm probably biased. Don't rule this out simply for lack of mini's. It's card driven, and plays in about the same time as a comparable TOI scenario. Don't let the (very well written, fully indexed, easy to-reference-when-you-have-a-quick-question, includes-many-examples) rules put you off--it is very easy and great fun to play. My son was 13 when he started playing this with me, and he plays a very decent game. Like CC:A, it's a high quality GMT-produced game. I can see your point about flat unit counters vs. mini's, but counters have all the unit stats right there on the playing piece which actually streamlines play. If there is a way to try it before you buy, give it a play.

Bottom line: if you can only pick one of these you can rule out M'44. After that my best advice would be to sample TOI and CC:E if possible to see which you like better. My solution was to get both. (I've heard a reviewer say he wished there was a way to combine TOI and CC:E.)

Good luck and let us know what you ended up doing, and how you like the game(s).

Have you considered any of the Axis and Allies series? I like CC:A quite a lot but have mixed feelings about blocks (not blocks really but very thick counters) vs figs, yet I believe it to be far superior to the original Battlecry or Memoire 44. I don't know much about Battlelore except what I've read that tells me it's a retrograde step in the evolution of the system (despite the colour and chrome).

But your interest is in WWII. Here, I find Axis and Allies: D-Day to be much better at depicting the Normandy invasions than Mem 44. By "better" I mean more thematic and fun while retaining the feel of the original A&A system. Another positive feature of A&A: D-Day is that it plays very well with two, three or four players. In fact, it has become my default game for three as so few games play well with that number. The "Battlecry" series are all two player games at heart.

Axis and Allies: Battle of the Bulge and Guadalcanal are now available and may be worth looking into as well. I think (the new) AH has finally settled down and is going to concentrate on proven successful products. These games hark back to the original historic recreations of the original AH but with updated components. The WWII flavour drips from these games in a much more satisfying way than I found in Mem 44.

Cards (just gotta have 'em, right?) are incorporated but none would be considered card-driven as such. That may be a problem if you must have a CDG system set in WWII. If that's the case, have you looked at GMT's WWII: Barbarossa to Berlin?

Food for thought...

Oh, and btw, I think the reason that you couldn't post this thread under the reviews column was because it wasn't a review?!?

Tide of Iron certainly doesn't have to take 3+ hours. It's very scalable. Choose a scenario (or whip up your own) with only two or three map boards and a half-dozen units per side, and you'll be done in well under two hours once you've got the rules down.

Getting it below one hour is a little less likely, and I think a lot of the fun and variety would be sucked out of it (fewer turns = fewer new Strategy cards coming into play). In that sense, CC:A has an edge; it packs quite a bit more game into a given unit time. M'44 has a similar game density.

Memoir '44 is a great game but it is MUCH simpler than BattleLore or C&C Ancients. If you want to make it more complicated you can add expansions which give more types of terrain and special units. The only thing I'd worry about is real hidden depth. I haven't found it yet.

Well i have been trying to decide what to do......

I have been rummaging and managed to find new copies of both M44 and TOI on ebay in the UK for a reasonable price. I say reasonable as it is still much higher than the US price. With the current exchange rates your prices are dirt cheap. (I got CC:Ancients cheap from thoughthammer on my last trip to the US)

I suspect I may prefer TOI, but may not always have time to play a descent sized scenario, so have gone for M44 as well.

I am going to try playing CC:A as much as possible, and will give battlelore another try as well.

I do play some games occassionally with about 4-5 friends. CCA is only really any good with 2 players currently. Maybe epic overlord M44 will be fun with a lot of players....

Andy
PS Yes i eventually read the messages i had been sent explaining that it was not a review...

Andy,

If you prowl around the files, you'll find some "Armageddon" entries for playing a double map version of CCA intended for multi-players. It does involve buying or building a 2nd map.

If you look in the Variants folder, you'll find my description of "multi-player CCA," adapting the game for 3 or 4 players while making no changes in equipment. You can also find suggestions for solo play which involve no changes, aside from tossing 3 cards out of the deck.

Enjoy

I really think you should consider CC:E if you're looking for the next step up from the Command & Colors system and want a game with a reasonably short playtime. Sure it doesn't have minis or tanks but the system creates a really dynamic battlefield (snipers, explosions, reinforcements, mines, pillboxes etc) that just isn't possible in the C&C system. Also the rules are very well written and should be easy to handle if you're comfortable with the C&C:A rulebook.

ToI is great too - but for all except the smaller scenarios you're looking at 3+ hours for a game, which doesn't seem to be what you want. You can play it with up to 4 players though, which is a bonus.

A little bit of an update for you all.

I did buy TOI and M44. I have not started on TOI yet, other than painting the miniatures in it. I have however now played 7 games of M44.

I very much enjoy it. It is a little simpler than CCA, but also a little faster and more fun. I would really describe it as "Different" to CCA.

CCA is very much about long continuous battle lines and melee combat. M44 is much more spread out individual units and ranged combat. Tanks and artillery in particular operate very differently than CCA.

Overall I enjoy both games. I intend to buy the Russian front and Pacific front expansions to M44 as these sound fun.

I will certainly buy the next CCA expansion when it comes out as my favourite unit is warbands, and i suspect the next expansion is going to have a lot of those!!

Andy