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Don Cooper
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Napoleon's Triumph » Forums » Reviews
Review: An Old Grumbler's Take
Let me just say I wanted to like NT, as I wanted to like BaM.

Let me just say that what is often referred to as "Randomness" by Euro players is in my sense a lack of detail. Realistically, in battle a lot of things can go wrong and very often do. What would football viewers do without dropped passes and fumbles and penalties? What is often an accusation of being “Random” is in essence those things that greatly effect a battle or a war that cannot be detailed directly into the system. Harold being shot by a “random” arrow causing the turn of the battle of Hastings is a good example. The happenstance of history is all around us. To ignore that at the expense of being elegant is a bit of pretense.

I have a theory that Eurogamers play the system, while Wargamers play tactics. Euros don’t want surprises. They want to understand a system down to its loopholes. They want simple rules or no rules at all. Both are correct in what they get out of the game. Good tactics will, always win a game even with poor rolls. And not all rolls are poor but they do even out the game.

Contrary to what many Euro players think, well designed wargames are never won or lost on bad rolls of the dice. And a good Eurogame is never entirely based on systematic design. Players who place them selves in awkward tactical situations where chance is the only the way they are going to win, would more than likely still lose in a game where there is little or no chance involved. Play ASL and you’ll understand what I’m saying.

The effects of artillery and cavalry are greatly abstracted in NT, in my opinion. Is this missing here? What about the weather? There is the fog at the battle site of Austerlitz that for some odd reason held on longer than it should have and greatly effected the disposition of the Allies waiting for the French troops hidden by the fog/mist. Is this like many things already abstracted by the designer into the game?

The other problem with the lack of randomness in a game will greatly reduce the detail in a game. Wargamers prefer detail, Euros prefer the broader strokes. The main problem with Euros is that for those players who beat the system, the game is over with. I’m afraid this is what happens to BaM and NT. There are little or no surprises in who wins the games, again and again and again. The system is played out. Who wants to play a game to lose. A Eurogamer often recounts how he challenged a newcomer and beat him. For the Wargamer its about learning and challenges and developing opponents. Nothing more excites me then being defeated (Patton wasn’t always right) in a game I was teaching somebody.

One of the concepts of BaM and NT is that a superior force will always beat an inferior force. This was not and still is not the case. Would Wellington’s center have held at Waterloo? What about Little Round Top at Gettysburg? The system simply will not work with all battles.

Then there’s the look of the game. Outstanding. And like Eurogames is there not a pretense to be prettier than smarter. For too long I have heard the nonsense over mapsheets and board games. Wooden pieces with no information and paper counters debate.

The game’s system main forte is maneuver and morale. In battles where there is quite a lot of maneuvering and wide open battle fields with no heavy defenses the system works (Marengo, Austerlitz, etc…), but in a battle like Borodino where French forces were forced to head on frontal assaults against entrenched forces with limited ability set-up and maneuver , the system probably would fail. It is quite easy for a player to compute the potential odds of the success down to the actual casualties of his attack without fighting. My wargame mind finds it very hard to grasp this logic.

The hidden unit factor works but only at the set-up to be honest. Strong attack in the center, strengthen the north with cavalry, etc … Those decisions alone decide the game, in my opinion. Everything else is a bit gamey, a word that Wargamers use derisively to describe Eurogames.

The dreaded Napoleon factor is absent in this game (a good thing … and one of the brilliant designs of the game), but then again so are the effects of the other corps commanders, who often risked their lives to create success. A unit led by a Corp commander is the same as one that is not? A bit obtuse there. But again it goes to being simple, but hinders on being simplistic.

Then there is the lack of solitaire play that was developed for BaM and worked somewhat well, but apparently is not offered for NT, which will greatly affect overall play here. Although a solitaire version can easily be wrought out of the system with some work. Replay value of a head-to head seems to be limited, as the players develop.

The terrain, like the effects of your troops, is pre-determined and means nothing to the player. The designer has taken all of that into effect. The designer has made you Napoleon but taken away all of your power. I think the game’s system is elegant. It has the look and feel of a wargame, but is it a wargame? Even the box looks like a wargame and it has Napoleon’s name on the box cover. The board is beautiful and for once someone leaves a little room for the two sides to maneuver their troops a bit. Avalanche’s recent Austerlitz game has the opponents starting nose to nose.

There’s a lot to like here, but then again there’s a lot missing. A bit of what some call randomness would have been good here. A solitaire version. It’s very tough to convince an old grognard to play this game. A bit more attention to detail (or the dreaded chrome) and a bit more control surrendered by the designer and put into the fates and hands of the players would have been nice. For a system that in my mind is quite different than any before it, it leaves me wanting more substance and less elegance.


Was George Orwell an optimist?
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Clearly the game doesn't work for you, and I have no problem with that. So I won't quibble with your overall assessment. There are, however, some details in your review that I can't resist responding to.


DUMASCLUB wrote:
I have a theory that Eurogamers play the system, while Wargamers play tactics.


Your review has ten references to Euros (Euro gamers, Eurogames, etc.); apparently you see Napoleon's Triumph as a Eurogame. I'd simply point out that Bowen Simmons is an American, and a wargamer, whose first published design appeared in Strategy & Tactics magazine.

Dick Jarvinen, who runs the BaM Ladder, has written extensively for wargame magazines, including The Avalon Hill General, Fire & Movement, Moves, etc., over the last 35 years or so. You've probably seen his name in the credits for several wargames, e.g. Russian Campaign 4th edition.

Many proponents of both BaM and NT, myself included, have decades of experience playing wargames. All this to say that your numerous references to Euro games and Euro players isn't necessarily relevant. NT is a Euro in your view, but not in mine. It should stand or fall on its own merits; categorization isn't useful.


DUMASCLUB wrote:

Contrary to what many Euro players think, well designed wargames are never won or lost on bad rolls of the dice.


That is simply not true. If you had said "not usually", I'd buy it, but I've seen it happen too many times to accept "never".


DUMASCLUB wrote:

The system simply will not work with all battles.


Red herring. The question is whether this particular battle works. Bowen has never said one word about having developed a "system". Note that the rules for NT are significantly different from those used in BaM.


DUMASCLUB wrote:

A unit led by a Corp commander is the same as one that is not? A bit obtuse there. But again it goes to being simple, but hinders on being simplistic.


If you don't see the advantage that units have when attached to a corps, then I don't even know what to say. Either I'm confused about your statement, or you're confused about the rules.


DUMASCLUB wrote:

Replay value of a head-to head seems to be limited, as the players develop.


It will get a great deal of replay from me, but that is of course a matter of taste.


Again, I have picked out only the statements that I particularly disagree with. Your overall review is well-written, and I'm sure you won't be alone in your preference for a game with more chrome and detail.
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Excellent...

Have not yet decided if I should go for Napoleon (AH - Columbia) or this one. Have not tried either of them. And the reason why is just your point.

This game system seems to have lack of unpredictability or randomness. What I want is (example) an attack you most probably win due to better odds -but does not know your losses. Then you must start to consider reserves -where and how big. And you must consider worst case scenario. Despite odds - what if you loose? Is it worth the risk of attack?

And I am not sure about the memory effect. Does it play a kind of Stratego? If you remember your opponent forces you may attack with just enough forces?
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I have to disagree with the polite assessment that this review was well written. I have not purchased Napoleon's Triumph. I like, but do not love, Bonaparte at Marengo. So I don't think I just expressing bias when I say I couldn't make heads or tails out of this review. It was more of a stream of conscience ramble than an actual review.
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I have to disagree with the polite assessment that this review was well written. I have not purchased Napoleon's Triumph. I like, but do not love, Bonaparte at Marengo. So I don't think I just expressing bias when I say I couldn't make heads or tails out of this review. It was more of a stream of conscience ramble than an actual review.
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DUMASCLUB wrote:
I have a theory that Eurogamers play the system, while Wargamers play tactics. Euros don’t want surprises. They want to understand a system down to its loopholes. They want simple rules or no rules at all. Both are correct in what they get out of the game. Good tactics will, always win a game even with poor rolls. And not all rolls are poor but they do even out the game.


This is truly something special, even for BGG. Every sentence in the paragraph is inane.
Last edited on 2007-09-09 18:13:34 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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I like Bonaparte at Marengo but haven't played it often -- it just never seems to rise to the top of possible choices when I sit down (on those all too infrequent occasions) to play a two player wargame. I am very glad that I own it and will definitely play it more but the lack of randomness does seem to take a little of the wind out of its sails for me. It sounds like the author of this review feels the lack of randomness more strongly.

I found the review well written and thought provoking. I also found the first response critiquing the review well written and persuasive.
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Excelent review!! It goes against the current and general views of this game and even against my opinion of the game, but it is a pleasure to see someone come stage center and voice what it is mumbled by the minority.
Don Cooper
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Thanks for the response,as you get it that I'm trying to be critical of the game as opposed to critizing it.

My reference to "Eurogames" is a reference to a certain type of board game that to be honest has no continental boundaries. Marne 1818 by Hexasim is made in France but I think resembles a class I have referred to as Wargames. Napoleon's Triumph the opposite. The term has less to do with geography these days but more to do with a type of a game.

I'm not going to relate to the other points but to my one opinion regarding the use of dice. No one has ever lost a game because of bad die rolls. They lost the game because they played poorly. I consider myself, along with every other Wargamer, a poor die roller. Don't roll two sixes, I'll roll box cars everytime. But that said I've never lost because of die rolls. It's an excuse. Bad tactics lose a game. One of GMTs game Wellington has one of Wargames most constroversial die rolls ever rolled. With one die roll, the game can end after the first set. That being said, if the British fail to achieve dramatic effects in the first year than historically they should be threatened with losing. The die roll in this case details this history.

Die rolls represent that extra element of surprise and detail that is in my mind often essential in a game to gain some sense of detail and historical representation. They represent the unseen factors that Eurogames portray as not being important or valid. A game that doesn't use some form of random decider, which Frederich even has, implies generalty and simpleness, which is now being labeled as elegance.

I like the idea that Mr. Simmons has gone about and decided to see if he could create a wargame without using dice. And he achieves that. But I don't like the philosphy behind it. to achieve his result, Mr. Simmons has dumbed down many factors of Napoleonic warfare or simply tossed them away. To name but a few, the use of artillary, which has no range. Weather conditions that are always clear and sunny. Commanders who are abstractions instead of battlefield generals. Units that a generic in abilities and skills. It misses the espirit de corp of a wargame, and replaced it with gamey moves and playing the system.














Don Cooper
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Thanks for the response,as you get it that I'm trying to be critical of the game as opposed to critizing it.

My reference to "Eurogames" is a reference to a certain type of board game that to be honest has no continental boundaries. Marne 1818 by Hexasim is made in France but I think resembles a class I have referred to as Wargames. Napoleon's Triumph the opposite. The term has less to do with geography these days but more to do with a type of a game.

I'm not going to relate to the other points but to my one opinion regarding the use of dice. No one has ever lost a game because of bad die rolls. They lost the game because they played poorly. I consider myself, along with every other Wargamer, a poor die roller. Don't roll two sixes, I'll roll box cars everytime. But that said I've never lost because of die rolls. It's an excuse. Bad tactics lose a game. One of GMTs game Wellington has one of Wargames most constroversial die rolls ever rolled. With one die roll, the game can end after the first set. That being said, if the British fail to achieve dramatic effects in the first year than historically they should be threatened with losing. The die roll in this case details this history.

Die rolls represent that extra element of surprise and detail that is in my mind often essential in a game to gain some sense of detail and historical representation. They represent the unseen factors that Eurogames portray as not being important or valid. A game that doesn't use some form of random decider, which Frederich even has, implies generalty and simpleness, which is now being labeled as elegance.

I like the idea that Mr. Simmons has gone about and decided to see if he could create a wargame without using dice. And he achieves that. But I don't like the philosphy behind it. to achieve his result, Mr. Simmons has dumbed down many factors of Napoleonic warfare or simply tossed them away. To name but a few, the use of artillary, which has no range. Weather conditions that are always clear and sunny. Commanders who are abstractions instead of battlefield generals. Units that a generic in abilities and skills. It misses the espirit de corp of a wargame, and replaced it with gamey moves and playing the system.














Don Cooper
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Thanks for the response,as you get it that I'm trying to be critical of the game as opposed to critizing it.

My reference to "Eurogames" is a reference to a certain type of board game that to be honest has no continental boundaries. Marne 1818 by Hexasim is made in France but I think resembles a class I have referred to as Wargames. Napoleon's Triumph the opposite. The term has less to do with geography these days but more to do with a type of a game.

I'm not going to relate to the other points but to my one opinion regarding the use of dice. No one has ever lost a game because of bad die rolls. They lost the game because they played poorly. I consider myself, along with every other Wargamer, a poor die roller. Don't roll two sixes, I'll roll box cars everytime. But that said I've never lost because of die rolls. It's an excuse. Bad tactics lose a game. One of GMTs game Wellington has one of Wargames most constroversial die rolls ever rolled. With one die roll, the game can end after the first set. That being said, if the British fail to achieve dramatic effects in the first year than historically they should be threatened with losing. The die roll in this case details this history.

Die rolls represent that extra element of surprise and detail that is in my mind often essential in a game to gain some sense of detail and historical representation. They represent the unseen factors that Eurogames portray as not being important or valid. A game that doesn't use some form of random decider, which Frederich even has, implies generalty and simpleness, which is now being labeled as elegance.

I like the idea that Mr. Simmons has gone about and decided to see if he could create a wargame without using dice. And he achieves that. But I don't like the philosphy behind it. to achieve his result, Mr. Simmons has dumbed down many factors of Napoleonic warfare or simply tossed them away. To name but a few, the use of artillary, which has no range. Weather conditions that are always clear and sunny. Commanders who are abstractions instead of battlefield generals. Units that a generic in abilities and skills. It misses the espirit de corp of a wargame, and replaced it with gamey moves and playing the system.














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Pardon my asking, but did you play the game and if so, how many time? The reason I ask is that I didn't get that impression from reading your review. I found the review very generic and referencing nearly everything that I could have come up with myself without ever having played the game.

You provide lots of reference to history and Eurogames/Eurogamers which I found to be intangible to the game's worthiness. Though I must admit, the one statement you do make "The game’s system main forte is maneuver and morale." is enough to make me disregard anything else noted and purchase the game (which I have). So in that respect, this must be an excellent game as Austerlitz was about both. And if that's what shines through then the designer must have done a good job.

:meeple:
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I don't own either game ... but this review is so poorly-written that my third grade teacher would cry upon reading it. I'm not nit-picking: I could not understand what the reviewer was trying to say in some parts. Other parts required re-reading and way too much effort for too little benefit.
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I don't agree with the review. I think BaM and NT have much replayability. In any case, I don't get to play them often enough to have exhausted them yet anyway.

I would respectfully suggest that anyone, OP included, before making a critique of "randomness" or "chance" read Bowen's essay here:
www.simmonsgames.com/design/Chance.html

At least, if you think there should be dice, perhaps consider Bowen's perspective that dice aren't really the best mechanic to simulate "chance" in and of itself.

It's worth reading just as a general introduction and differing perspective.

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DUMASCLUB wrote:

I have a theory that Eurogamers play the system, while Wargamers play tactics. Euros don’t want surprises. They want to understand a system down to its loopholes. They want simple rules or no rules at all. Both are correct in what they get out of the game. Good tactics will, always win a game even with poor rolls. And not all rolls are poor but they do even out the game.

Contrary to what many Euro players think, well designed wargames are never won or lost on bad rolls of the dice. And a good Eurogame is never entirely based on systematic design. Players who place them selves in awkward tactical situations where chance is the only the way they are going to win, would more than likely still lose in a game where there is little or no chance involved. Play ASL and you’ll understand what I’m saying.



Sorry to hear that you are not so much of a fan of this game, or the system with which it was designed. Reading your take on the game focused a lot on what "Euro players think", as you explain your theory on how Euro gamers vs. Wargamers 'play' the game of their choice.

What I kept waiting for, through it all, was what you actually thought about the game you reviewed. You, being, the actual person doing the review, not the other 'types' of players out there, and there supposed inclinations toward gaming approaches. The impression I got, through all of your posturing about what sort of gamer thinks about how they play a certain game, is interesting, yet, when I read a Review, I actually am most interested in what the reviewer thinks about the game that he, or she, in fact played, not what the reviewer thinks other 'types of gamers' think about how they play their games, based on your theory.

If you did get a copy, and you are looking to sell it, I'm sure I can help you out.
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DUMASCLUB wrote:
There is the fog at the battle site of Austerlitz that for some odd reason held on longer than it should have and greatly effected the disposition of the Allies waiting for the French troops hidden by the fog/mist. Is this like many things already abstracted by the designer into the game?

If by affected the disposition, you mean it affected their morale, or it made them so uneasy that their combat effectiveness was reduced, or it obscured the movement of the French reinforcements, or it made them unable to identify & assess the strength of the French units moving toward them? I think all of those are included in the game; do you mean something else?

DUMASCLUB wrote:
The other problem with the lack of randomness in a game will greatly reduce the detail in a game. Wargamers prefer detail, Euros prefer the broader strokes.
DUMASCLUB wrote:
Die rolls represent that extra element of surprise and detail that is in my mind often essential in a game to gain some sense of detail and historical representation.

Now wait a minute; I agreed with the second paragraph of your original post, when you said that randomness in wargames is a lack of detail. You mention ASL; that has a DR on the IFT instead of rules exposing the details of every bullet fired by my guys at your guys. Removing that randomness wouldn't reduce the detail; the detail has already been deliberately abstracted away (or, depicted in the broader strokes you say Euros prefer) by the designer!

Still, if a lack of randomness in combat were your only complaint, you could fix that by rolling two or three FUDGE dice at the end of each battle, and adjusting the final result by the amount rolled.

DUMASCLUB wrote:
I'm afraid this is what happens to BaM and NT. There are little or no surprises in who wins the games, again and again and again. The system is played out. Who wants to play a game to lose.

How many playings are you saying it takes to reach this point? I've played BaM a little over 20 times (which makes it one of my best gaming purchases ever), and although there were periods in my most recent game where we both thought the outcome was certain, the "certain winner" reversed at least twice, and the outcome was finally determined by the identity of one unknown enemy unit in the 8PM turn.

DUMASCLUB wrote:
Then there is the lack of solitaire play that was developed for BaM and worked somewhat well, but apparently is not offered for NT, which will greatly affect overall play here.

With BaM's "solitaire rules," you're still playing both sides yourself--missing out on everything that's good about the game!--so I think that's a lack of solitaire play. It doesn't bother me that NT has a similar lack, ha ha.

DUMASCLUB wrote:
Replay value of a head-to head seems to be limited, as the players develop.

How many real plays (that is, against another player, not solitaire) is this statement based on?

DUMASCLUB wrote:
The terrain, like the effects of your troops, is pre-determined and means nothing to the player. The designer has taken all of that into effect. The designer has made you Napoleon but taken away all of your power.

I don't understand this at all. When you're looking at the map, planning your attack or defense, aren't you considering the terrain?? I don't think you're saying that, as Napoleon, you should have the power to relocate this lake from your right flank to your left...
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kuhrusty wrote:


DUMASCLUB wrote:
The terrain, like the effects of your troops, is pre-determined and means nothing to the player. The designer has taken all of that into effect. The designer has made you Napoleon but taken away all of your power.

I don't understand this at all. When you're looking at the map, planning your attack or defense, aren't you considering the terrain?? I don't think you're saying that, as Napoleon, you should have the power to relocate this lake from your right flank to your left...


No, but maybe a die roll to determine where the lake is each turn. :)
Don, I do not think your definition for the term "eurogames" is accurate. There are eurogames which features randomness, they simply do it without dice. Modern Art, for example, is a very random game.

However, I do not believe that the accuracy of your definition is relevant to this discussion. In fact, I agree with your main points about Napoleon's Triumph. Criticisms are as important as praises, yours are more so because of the rareness of criticisms here. Because of this I gave you a thumb up.
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I recommended this thread, not because of the review, but for the discussion that evolved from it.
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Coming back to some of your specific complaints about the game:

DUMASCLUB wrote:
to achieve his result, Mr. Simmons has dumbed down many factors of Napoleonic warfare or simply tossed them away. To name but a few, the use of artillary, which has no range.

Googling "napoleonic artillery range" gives a couple of hits which say round shot had an effective range of about 800 yards, so hitting units more than one locale away wouldn't be right. And artillery does have better range than other units in this game, as it's the only thing which can fire on the enemy without being hit itself.

DUMASCLUB wrote:
Weather conditions that are always clear and sunny.

(I believe the game ends after the 4PM turn because it's not clear and sunny, ha ha.) Just out of curiosity, what kind of weather effects were you looking for?

DUMASCLUB wrote:
Commanders who are abstractions instead of battlefield generals.

(As Sphere mentioned above, there is a huge difference between a group of units together in a locale, and the same group of units with a corps commander.) If you're saying you would have preferred rules for modeling Bessiers differently than Murat, though... fair enough.

DUMASCLUB wrote:
Units that a generic in abilities and skills.

If your complaint is that all 2-strength infantry are the same, that doesn't seem reasonable to me; almost every wargame I've ever played has been like that. If your complaint is that a 2-strength infantry feels the same as a 1- or 3-strength infantry, or a Guard unit, or artillery, or a cavalry unit of any strength, I think you're mistaken!

DUMASCLUB wrote:
It misses the espirit de corp of a wargame, and replaced it with gamey moves and playing the system.

Having just looked up "esprit de corps," I don't see how you can say NT lacks that. I've only played twice so far, but both times it has definitely begun with a feeling of direction toward a positive cause or purpose! The first time, as the Allies in a team game, it was, "I'm going to feint left; you hold back until I've drawn him my way, and then tear him up on the right"; the second, as the French, it was "these guys will hold the right; these cavalry in the center will fall back to more defensible terrain and look weak until they can surge forward and mop up some broken corps, or swing around and support the right if necessary; these guys will advance down the road; these guys will swing toward the center; and my reinforcements will stay out if at all possible." Especially with the flexibility of the setup, how can you not have this feeling?
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Simon Mueller wrote:
I recommended this thread, not because of the review, but for the discussion that evolved from it.


Better perhaps to rate individual contributions to the discussion then--

I'm honestly puzzled to see various people laud this review as good writing.

By what criteria? Strictly from the standpoint of grammar and style it is not (the piece is repetitive, passive, filled with awkward clauses and such). But I suspect that's not what's meant, at least not primarily. What then? Because of its insight into the game? As others have pointed out, there is very little in the review to suggest the game has actually been played. Note that I am not venturing any opinion on whether or not the reviewer *has* played it, only that if so then the review doesn't much reflect the game play.

Is this good writing because of its insight into games more generally? I doubt it. I think most of us agree that the descriptions of wargames vs. Euros are caricatures at best. The remarks about "system" vs. "tactics" likewise fall flat. Squad Leader, certainly anyone's idea of a wargame, explicitly embraced both in its design philosophy. Players were encouraged to employ "real" tactics (fire lanes, for example) and told that the system would reward them; but they were also told that mastery of the system--rules and procedures--was itself a vital aspect of game play and represented the advantage of a veteran commander over a rookie (remember: "YOU are the Squad Leader!!").

No, I can only conclude that this is touted as "good writing" because it takes a skeptical view of the game and does so in paragraphs rather than just slapping it with a "1" in the ratings. We see a lot of that on the Geek too, unfortunately. But contrariness without substance is no more valuable (to me, at least) than fan-boy boosterism or a kneejerk "1." My own view of NT (after a single playing) is best described as mixed. I'm not here to get out the pitchfork and torches because someone has uttered a negative word. I have no problem with dissent. I've seen several people ask hard questions about what the combat system is actually meant to represent, for example. That kind of discussion is far more interesting and valuable to me and (I'm willing to bet) others.
Last edited on 2007-09-10 10:45:50 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
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WalterLai wrote:
In fact, I agree with your main points about Napoleon's Triumph.


In contrast, the only point the review makes about NT with which I found myself in full agreement is that NT doesn't use dice. It makes a few other points that I probably agree with, but I'm not sure I'm inferring what's implied.

On the other hand, I did find too many of the points made about NT to be either wrong guesses or misinterpretations. Some examples of these:

DUMASCLUB: A unit led by a Corp commander is the same as one that is not?

That point ends with a question mark, so I'll answer it: no, it is not. A unit under direct control of a corps commander has significantly greater utility than a detached unit. A unit in a corps is worth two in a bush.

DUMASCLUB: The terrain, like the effects of your troops, is pre-determined and means nothing to the player.

First, what wargame doesn't have pre-determined terrain? And intelligent tactical use of the terrain in NT is essential, which is quite far from "nothing".

DUMASCLUB: The hidden unit factor works but only at the set-up to be honest.

I'm honestly not sure what "works" is supposed to mean here. So I'll limit myself to observing that hidden unit strength is fundamental to every aspect of the game. And it works!

DUMASCLUB: Strong attack in the center, strengthen the north with cavalry, etc … Those decisions alone decide the game, in my opinion.

This is so far off the mark it's hard to know where to begin. The game is decided by the interaction of scores of player decisions, from army deployment to corps maneuver, down to the handling of individual units within the corps.

WalterLai wrote:
Criticisms are as important as praises, yours are more so because of the rareness of criticisms here.


Well, I'd say that neither criticism nor praise has intrinsic merit. The value of either relies on the quality and clarity of its arguments. What the review makes clear is that the reviewer is disappointed in NT's lack of dice and both the nature and degree of its abstractions. So far so good. I can't and won't argue with that.

Where the review's critique breaks down for me (leaving aside its lengthy and peculiar fixation with pigeonholing NT as a Eurogame) is that some objections to specific design features mis-characterize them to such an extent that the conclusions sound to me like speculation posing as experience or genuine understanding of the game. That impression may be unfair to the reviewer, but it's the one I got.



Mark Beyak
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G Haggerty wrote:
First, what wargame doesn't have pre-determined terrain? And intelligent tactical use of the terrain in NT is essential, which is quite far from "nothing".


Up Front, perhaps? :)

But, I do agree with your assessment of this review. thumbsup
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First, you guys do know that you can delete duplicate postings, right?

Interesting that the previous commenter on this thread uses a Combat Commander: Europe counter as an avatar. I am about to buy both NT and CC:E without actually having a split personality. CC:E would seem to be the direct opposite of NT by the criteria in the original post.

The comment that NT lacks detail is a mystery to me. A game where every side on every space is evaluated has plenty of terrain detail, IMO. Simply because it is represented differently than on most wargame maps does not "abstract" it out of the game. Or am I missing something in the arguement?

While I am sure that those with encylopedic memories will claim that they can keep track of the units, I imagine that most players should find the hidden information will bring plenty of uncertainty to combat.
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Quote:
DUMASCLUB


I agree, pummel them with Russian Assemblies.
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