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David Seddon
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05060708
I have found Joan of Arc to be maybe the most difficult game to rate of all the hundreds of games that I have yet played.

Why? Well, it's because the game gets better and better the more you apply each of a half dozen rules tweaks. No one of them is enough to save the game, neither is any 2 or 3 of them, but by the time you've added 4 or 5 it starts to become worth playing. Add them all and it's going to be pretty interesting.

As things stand, it's as if Tilsit just didn't bother to finish developing it. The game feels like the runt offspring that Martin Wallace forgot about. Martin isn't great with his rules in that they are often impenetrable, lack clarity and need further explanation. These rules have the latter two problems, plus they are also under-developed. I don't know why companies do this. It's frustrating and it doesn't take that much effort - or play-testing to correct.

Alas, Martin didn't write the game, but I wish he had!! It could have been very good.

You can find reviews here about how the game plays, what the pieces are like, whether it's any good etc. What I'd like to do now is look at how I think the game can go from being a 5 out of ten to a 7 out of 10 and then even an 8 or 8.5 out of ten.

Is it worth this effort? Yes it is. 6 player historical games are rare - especially ones playable in 3-4 hours (depending how many turns you use). Ones that look this good and have this theme are rarer. True, it doesn't even begin to resemble a simulation, but that really doesn't matter. Actually, the game play in battle is closest to Condottiere - no bad thing as that game is interesting in the card-play respect and then this one adds a fair few layers on top of that.

Here are my quick suggestion about what needs to be done with the game:

1. Bid for turn order each turn (not the first one). This would mean that an unlucky player wouldn't always draw the postion he least wanted, and it would also have a knock on affect to point two below - basically this involves encouraging players to use their money for something other than cards and buildings.*

2. Allow only a certain number of extra cards to be bought each turn. I would make it about 6 or 7, but players could agree a sensible amount beforehand.

As it is you can get rich players buying large amounts of cards and using their already strong postion to get stronger than they ought. Battles can seem almost endless during the phase of a player who has lots of cards. Which nicely brings us on to point three.

3. In war time set a maximum number of attacks that a player can make. Four would seem about right. If you do this, you don't get weaker players having to sit around for 15 minutes whilst one player does attack after attack. It also balances the game up a bit between players.

4. Allow the hero card to be in the game as of right for one turn each per player. Providing he or she isn't killed they can then be reactivated as normal with the right roll after an ambasadorial play. This makes the game much more thematic and fun.

(incidentally we play that the Maid herself is allowed to double one card in a fight, but not add +2 as well - this seems to work well).


5. To make the game more historical and more intriguing, allow victory points for castle and stronghold building. You get them as they are bought. A castle is worth 1 point, a stronghold 2. Why? Well, first this is more reasonable for the period. At the time, you actually would get more prestige for building them. Second it would again mitigate against mass card buying (if you don't use rule 2 above).

6. Make events happen only once per game (though Big Battle retains its extra card). This makes for more variation.

* I have tinkered with the idea of having a system whereby turn order chits shift to the right after each turn, but I think the bidding is more interesting.

For rule 2, you could actually make the cards more expensive for the same result, but I think the above suggestion is cleaner.

Another suggestion, though this time less essential, is to start the game on turn 3. This shortens it nicely. It then comes in at just under 3 hours, which isn't bad at all for a game of this type. The full ten turns would be fine, but I quite like it shortened like this.

Summing up

I really like the colour and feel and look of the game, BUT I still feel short-changed by it. However, there is something worthwhile that can be brought out with a few changes. Perhaps if Tilsit ever do a second edition, they might tidy up the rules and add a whole string of suggestions like the above as options. That would help tremendously.

Recently I played the game using half of the above rules, even though I had thought of most of the others beforehand or read them here on the Geek. I only wish I'd used the others as well as it would really have brought the game out into the Wallace-type territory that I seek in a game like this.

I am very much indebted to Gerard Kilgallon for suggesting the fortification building score rule and for clarifying my mind on some of the other rules. As usual, he quickly grasps the strengths and weaknesses of a design.

(last two edits = typos)



Last edited on 2007-09-15 01:13:57 CST (Total Number of Edits: 3)
HARRY ESCOTT
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I agree it is a game that has potential but needs tweeking.

HEROS
The single hero activation as of right rule works wells. In the game I played I think we only had a couple of ambassador hero activations.

ORDER OF PLAY
Bidding to determine turn order makes sense although it would slow the game down.

CARD / ATTACK LIMITS
Personally wouldn't be keen on arbitrary limits on the number of attacks you can make and / or the number of cards you can buy. I think the tendency for people to gang up and decimate one player would continue.

FORTIFICATIONS
I don't think you should need bribing with pretender points in order to build / hold fortifications. It strikes me that the attacker has the advantage in this game and fortifications make quite attractive targets. That's why people tended to set them back from the front line.

I would like to see fortifications being used in their traditional role - not to earn income or pretender points but to defend important strategic locations. To make them more attractive I think you need to improve their defensive value and make the blitzkrieg style conquests that I whitnessed more difficult. If you can do that people will want to deploy them to defend their borders.

You could beef up defenses by doing any of the following:-
1) You could make garrisons = 3, castles = 5, strongholds = 7 (that’s pretty formidable).
2) The whole thing about siege warfare was that it was slow. Armies got bogged down. You could say that after you attack a fortification – regardless of outcome - you have to stop.
3) Alternatively, you could say that you must stop your attacking once you have lost an attack – whether it is against a garrison or a fortification.
4) For anyone with fortifications the traitor card is scary. I would be happy to have it taken out or downgraded.


Mark Crocker
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060708
A computer game ("Montjoie") has been released. It is laid out and plays just like "Joan of Arc" also originally called "Montjoie", but with some similar tweaks as those mentioned above. Off the top of my head, here are a few;
1). The Big Battle and the Naval Battle events have been removed, replaced by various "raid/uprising" events. There are still 12 chance events.
2). In the diplomatic phase, just before expansion and conquest, factions can place incentives of 1 to 4 gold in towns, to induce other factions to attack.
3). A faction may also offer 1 to 4 gold to another faction (called an alliance), as an inducement not to be attacked by the receiver. The receiver is not bound, but must return the gold, if he breaks the "alliance".
4). A faction may expend up to 3 influence points to buy votes for war or peace in the political status phase.
5). As in the board game, an Engineer card played by a defender cancels out an Engineer card played by an attacker...however, if the attacker DIDN'T play an Engineer, the defender's Engineer card reduces the attacker's total by 2 (so it's not wasted).
6). There are 2 provinces (3 cities) on the island of Britain, so it may be invaded. (I made an overlay for the boardgame).
Paul Boos
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04050607
I guess I haven't needed these tweaks to find the game enjoyable.

Admiral, did you play with folks making and breaking alliances throughout the game?
David Seddon
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05060708
Yes, I think that we did, but it was a while ago now.

Who is putting out the PC game and where is it buyable?
Mark Crocker
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060708
Try www.ageod.com

And I also liked the board game just fine as presented in the begining.
Last edited on 2008-04-28 15:17:14 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Paul Boos
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04050607
Admiral Fisher wrote:
Yes, I think that we did, but it was a while ago now.


That is what I took controls whether someone runs away away with the game or not. In reality, the farther you get ahead in money (and pretender points to some degree) then logically you will have an advantage of being able to build more and attack in more places. If people don't line up against you, then they are missing part of the game. That means making and breaking alliances (a la Diplomacy). So I like the game as is myself...

That said, your proposed mods to the rules sound really intriguing and I should like to give them a try.

BTW, I just recently got Azteca from the same designer and also Tilsit. The rules are still clunkily written (maybe it is the translation). I am impressed with their component quality though.

I hope you aren't unhappy with the JoA purchase, since undoubtedly I know I had a large influence on your purchase of it. It is still perhaps my #1 Weuro with Wallenstein and SoE right there also. I am REALLY looking forward to playing Perikles now after your GeekList. I also recently got Mordred and hope to give it a go as well.

Cheers!
Paul
Paul Boos
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04050607
Crockerdile wrote:


Bummer, they don't make a Mac version.
David Seddon
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05060708
No, I'm not unhappy with it. My problem will be trying to get others to play it again...some of the group really didn't like it. I did, but I think I'll have to play it with another group I'm in and use the tweeked rules.
Mark Crocker
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060708
Renaissance

Maybe this one will end up being what many think "Joan" should be. I downloaded the rules which are only in French, but at least in color, which alas I can't read ,but any "Joan of Arc" fan would recognize the layout of the rules, the 8 or so phases of a turn, the building pieces (there's 4 instead of 3), the combat cards (1 through 7 [instead of 1 -6]), and some of the "red" cards such as Pillage, Engineer, and Sign of God.
There are 6 cards for faction leaders which may or may not funtion like the Hero cards in Joan (I can't tell). There is a card called "Conditierre" which looks like it may be significant. But all in all, the game looks like a "Joan of Arc" clone.

Like AdmiralFisher, I have trouble getting this to the table...only about 6 or 7 plays in over 2 years. One gamer just flat out told me that he refuses to play anything made by Tilsit. A pity because I know that it's the type of game he would enjoy. Most everyone else thinks the game is too long, for what it is. But myself and a couple of friends love (and own) it.

That's where the PC version comes in. Now I can always get it to the table, if I want.

EDIT: On April 30, 2008 I received an answer to an inquiry regarding "Renaissance". Asmodee-us has scrapped the project.
Last edited on 2008-05-01 08:35:38 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
 
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