geek
Rules | Subscriptions | Bookmarks | Search | Account | Moderators
Recommend
5
20 Posts
New Thread | Printer Friendly | Subscribe  | Bookmark
Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Andrew Rae
flag
Avatar
Phoenicia » Forums » Reviews
REVIEW: "This mint tastes like hard plastic!"
I approached Phoenicia with a rare enthusiasm based on all my geek reading. Reviews, discussions, it was all there, and I felt coming in that I had a good feel of what to expect good and bad. Unfortunately I was able to see first hand all the bad stuff and only had a glimpse through the window of the good stuff. It happens. Lots of my complaints are less of an issue after multiple plays, but it is common knowledge that if a player does not gel with a game first time up, then there are a hundred other games that they will select instead. Maybe it’s the same with reviews. Maybe you won’t get to my praise for the game, I hope you will. But don’t blink and be careful or you might miss it.

A lot had been made about the board and the components. Several of the statements I read on the geek were passed almost verbatim my members of our group. The plastic pieces were problematic. Mostly for me because I at first mistook the coins for mints and it was not until I came to the realisation that these were very hard, tasteless mints that I discovered my error. No harm done to my teeth, some very homely scratches on a disk and a good memory for the crew. Phew. Rack that one up to experience.

Part of my confusion was that there were three containers of white disks. Three different playing pieces were the same colour of hard plastic. Each player also had some plastic cubes in their colour but the pieces really looked out of date. The comment “plastic pieces don’t really fit with the game” came out very quickly as it did on the geek, and I am in agreement. It’s not that the plastic pieces weren’t good quality, they were, the little houses were fantastic, but wooden meeples and cubes would have this conversation a non-event. I hope they will correct this is they ever re release the game.

The board was also problematic. In fact it was terrible. Firstly the scoring track. The differentiation between victory points, and production was difficult. The level of income you receive was hard to see and these symbols were often covered up because of the crowding. This crowding was the hardest thing to handle because secondly, the rest of the board was a waste of space! I knew this before I started but it still shocked me. There is this diagram that takes a third of the board that is virtually meaningless. You expect it to mean something, but it doesn’t. In fact it simply misleads suggesting prerequisite requirements (like many other civ games). But there are no prerequisites. The diagram is counter productive and takes away from the game.

If you want a list of chances that would improve these problems it would include, wooden pieces, separate scoring and production tracks, discount and explanation cards for each player and hence a board that is half the size or even better a board that describes all the cards.

This brings up the rules. The rules by all accounts are very poor. There is not the basic information you would expect, and they are even ambiguous in parts. Ambiguous, unexplained. Rules are meant to make things clear and simple, as are the player aids. There were not player aids, and not having any really hurts.

Ironically the game play is really simple, but the rules and components make it seem complex. Having played the game once, it seems the game could be played in half the time next time and game play seems really simple. And I mean really basic. Not to say there aren’t any strategic choices, there are. And in fact one aspect I really like is that this is not a traditional civ game where you specialise on one path. Strategically you cannot afford to give one player all the Dyers for example (allowing stacking bonuses) because that would virtually guarantee one player the cloth making. All players need to spread your interests so that no one player has an advantage down a particular path. This is a great feature.

The main mechanic is a no frills auction at the beginning of the turn. Nothing special about it. The different items allow you to balance victory points against productive ability against potential for the future. Each card will provide you with varying amounts of these three things. The game is basically balancing those decisions. It is simple, it is straightforward and provides some subtle strategic choices.

Despite it’s strengths the game is just so hard to pick up. There was a discussion on the geek about how easy it is for a player to effectively eliminate themselves from the game with some bad choices on turn one and two. Guess what, I did it. I am not a bad player, in fact I am a good euro gamer, but I had an hour and a half of mind numbing boredom because of the decisions I made in the first two auctions. I could not recover period. I tried my hardest, made good decisions with what I had, but I could not recover. I can in fact isolate the exact confusion which lead me to bad choices. It was a combination of the rules not being clear and not seeing the coin symbols on the board. True, I would not make those same decisions again, but for a first time player the rules, the board, and the game play were confusing. No game should eliminate a player in the first two turns when they play conservatively. This one did. It is far to prone to a bad experience.

In conclusion Phoenicia is a auction game which balances potential, points and resources in a simple and balanced way. Having played the game is easy to understand and has a level of strategy which most people will pick up easily. Unfortunately if you love this game you will have to guide new players very carefully, and if you are playing from scratch, beware of the confusion it is prevalent. The game itself is a major paradox because its major plus in my view is the simplicity of game play and the auctioning dynamics. Yet it is soooo complex to learn and lends itself to a bad gaming experience. The geek testifies that I am not an abnormality. All in all this game could fit nicely into a niche of a quick simple civ game. Yet for me life is too short to waste my time learning a game like this, and there are a hundred other good games that are everything it is and more. The game play is good, but not brilliant, and the rest of it is bad. Now I know how to play I wouldn’t veto it but you won’t see this on my bookshelf anytime soon.
Mark
flag
Avatar
06070809
I think you're overstating the negative. Almost every auction game is going to be hard for a first time player because they don't know what the stuff up for auction is worth --even moreso in Phoenicia because of the mulitple paths and the subtle aspect of evaluating what your opponents holdings are. Sure it can be frustrating to feel you're learning the game, but isn't the challenge a big part of why games are fun?

That said, I agree with a lot of your criticism. The plastic was fine for me personally, but the graphics were not so good. You didn't mention the cards, which have small print (the useful stuff) at the expense of large pictures (not useful) or the cubes for the discounts, which are ok once you understand them, but confuse a lot of players at first.

My 2 cents....this game is a lot of fun if someone teaches it to you, and a struggle for a couple games if you have to work through the rules, such as they are. Despite that, as you mention, the game is surprisingly simple and quite a good game.
Eric Knauer
flag
Avatar
05060708
Quote:
The board was also problematic. In fact it was terrible. Firstly the scoring track. The differentiation between victory points, and production was difficult.


I played this for the first time this weekend and while everyone agreed some of the components could have been better, it wasn’t THAT bad (and we’re a nitpicky group concerning bits).

Quote:
Yet for me life is too short to waste my time learning a game like this, and there are a hundred other good games that are everything it is and more.


What other games play like Phoenicia? I find it particularly appealing because of its uniqueness. Scepter of Zavandor, another tech tree game, took my group 5 hours to play, which was much too long for my taste. If there are other games with similar mechanics that play in around 60-90, I’d be interested in hearing about them.
Andrew Rae
flag
Avatar
In response to the other posts, if I may.

I agree I overstated the neagtive, guilty as accused. A bad experience will do that to you. I ought not to leave the lasting impression it has bad gameplay, because it doesn't. I imagine I agree that this is a much better game if it is taught to you and better once understood. I'll take the hand slap on that.

In terms of better games I may not be able to say there is a better game with auction AND quick civ advancment. Perhaps you have a point that the unique combination of factors make this special. But my feeling is it just doesn't give me, personally, anything special that I could not get in another game that is easier to understand. If I want auctions then I prefer to play Ra or Medici or For Sale. If I want a civ then I would prefer to play Civ or Mare Nostrum or Tempus or if anyone was foolish enough to play with me Advanced Civilisation :).

I don't mean to say this is a bad game, it's just there were so many problems with it and it didn't add anything special for me. Now I know how to play it is much better. Still my advice is for people that don't have every game under the sun and are only going to have a smaller number. In that case I would advise plenty of other games, those above included.

That doesn't mean you, or meowsqueak who doubled my score will not find somethign special in it. I will be interested to see if my opinion is in teh minority or the majority. Such is the brilliance and the diversity of the geek.

Ben Foy
flag
Avatar
I personally get irritated with the impatience of Eurogamers. My first few plays of 1830 were not fun at all. But after the fourth or fifth play, I started understanding the game and realized what a great game it was. I have had loads of fun with that title and all the associated games, so it was definitely worth sticking with.

I haven't had a chance to play Phoenicia BUT I am certainly going to give it more than one play before judging it.
Darrell Hanning
flag
Avatar
0506070809
While there were, no doubt, bad choices made in the design of the gameboard, and in editing the rules, you seem to have let these secondary issues color your overall assessment of the game, to the point where a single playing is enough for you to decide the game itself lacks substantial merit.

I think the title of your review pretty much sums up the review itself - taking something to task for what it isn't.

I've taught this game to about a dozen people, now, and each and every one of them - without exception - have wanted to play it again, no matter how well they fared initially. That, to me, is a pretty sterling estimate of the game's value.

And pretty much every one of them also complained about the board, and complained about the lack of an aid showing them what each card does. But none of them let that stop them from enjoying a game having such a generous dollop of strategy in such a fast-playing format.
David Norman
flag
Avatar
DarrellKH wrote:
And pretty much every one of them also complained about the board, and complained about the lack of an aid showing them what each card does.


Out of interest, what level do people want such a playing aid to be?

I mean, do they want a playing aid of the form = Victory Point, = untrained worker, etc? Or do they want something similar to the back page of the rules - a complete list of every card with the effects of the card listed?

David.
Darrell Hanning
flag
Avatar
0506070809
I would say the latter.
Jennifer Schlickbernd
flag
Game Designer
Avatar
070809
Yeah, I would have to agree about the auction comment. When I explained and played Phoenicia for the first time last week, I told everybody that the game would not be understood until after they had finished. It's just not a game that you can see how it will end until you actually play it. Acquire is like this, as is the aforementioned 1830. I also agree with this instant gratification thing...I think we are all going to be presented with a million variations of tic-tac-toe if designers have to make sure everything is perfect the first play.
Mark Delano
flag
0708
DavidNorman99 wrote:
Out of interest, what level do people want such a playing aid to be?


I want to be able to right click and have the card description pop up. :D
Steve Perucca
flag
I'm torn on this game. I absolutely love Scepter of Zavandor. So, my opinion is a bit tainted.

I agree that the game is a bit quirky in the rules. I don't know how much playtesting when into this, but I know the designer stated this game evolved significantly from it's original concept as a card-based game. I'm wondering if it evolved enough, because this "lighter" version of Scepter is by no means "simpler."

I'm giving this game a "chance" though, mostly because I bought it (based on reviews that it was Scepter-lite). I even went out and bought player-colored bits to use as the initial workers and houses.

Anyway, I truly understand where the poster of the review is coming from. Making a bad desision on turn 1 or 2 should NOT eliminate you from the game. That happened to another player in my first game, plus the experienced player absolutely demolished the rest of us beginners. Why even finish a game that is hopeless to win after a couple turns!

We'll soon see if this game becomes shelfware for me.
Last edited on 2007-09-28 17:00:38 CST (Total Number of Edits: 3)
Mark Delano
flag
0708
You can lose the game on the first turn, but only by making big mistakes. The first time you play you don't know what those mistakes are. That's true of many games out there. It's easy to put yourself out of the running in Power Grid by bidding 40 on a first turn Power Plant. Bidding 6 on a first turn Prospector is roughly equivalent, it's just that each increment of 1 in Phoenicia is a bigger commitment than in Power Grid.

It's impossible to win the game on the first turn, unless all the other players make significant mistakes.

Skill is a primary factor in the game. The more skilled player will win most of the time, or at least come close.
Henri Harju
flag
Avatar
070809
frunkee wrote:
You can lose the game on the first turn, but only by making big mistakes. The first time you play you don't know what those mistakes are. That's true of many games out there. It's easy to put yourself out of the running in Power Grid by bidding 40 on a first turn Power Plant. Bidding 6 on a first turn Prospector is roughly equivalent, it's just that each increment of 1 in Phoenicia is a bigger commitment than in Power Grid.

It's impossible to win the game on the first turn, unless all the other players make significant mistakes.

Skill is a primary factor in the game. The more skilled player will win most of the time, or at least come close.


And of course, if you're teaching newbies to a game you correct them and tell it's not wise. I know some people don't want to be told what is wise and what is not, but I take it as a duty of a teacher to correct blatant mistakes (and should correct the less fatal ones as well).

I think phoenicia can be played well from first get go, but it requires that the teacher is not so much focused at winning, but rather at tutoring the newbies.
Last edited on 2007-09-29 02:08:24 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Mark Delano
flag
0708
Henkka wrote:
And of course, if you're teaching newbies to a game you correct them and tell it's not wise. I know some people don't want to be told what is wise and what is not, but I take it as a duty of a teacher to correct blatant mistakes (and should correct the less fatal ones as well).

I think phoenicia can be played well from first get go, but it requires that the teacher is not so much focused at winning, but rather at tutoring the newbies.


Good point. It's tough if everybody is new to the game though.
Andrew Rae
flag
Avatar
After reviewing the barrage of abuse, I think I agree, I am an inpatient eurogamer. And it is clear from all the comments that this takes more than one play to enjpy. I know I will enjoy it more next time.

The thing is when someone is considering buying a game are they better to buy a game that takes their friends multiple plays to learn or are they better to buy a game that people enjoy first time.

Even more so for the causal gamer. Not that it is a good example but noone has ever said 'I don't understand that' in relation to TTR. We have played it once with ten couples. They enjoyed their time playing, it was probably the only board game they will play all year. They don't have time to 'learn a game'.

Phoenicia may be a good game but there must be 40 games in the top 100 on the geek which are enjoyable for the serious gamer on the first play and then continue to be enjoyable and offer as many (if not more) strategic optoins than Phoenicia.

I have time to play one may two serious games with regular gamers a week, that is maybe 100 per year. That will reduce as our family grows. Therefore why would I spend my time learning to love a game when I already love a enough games and there are new ones that I will love first time, like railroad tycoon.

Hopefully my review allows people to consider whether they have the time to learn the game or not. I am sure all the comments will make that very clear to them, so we have both done our job with this post. Thakns for getting involved in the post.
Sebastian Bleasdale
flag
Game Designer
frunkee wrote:
You can lose the game on the first turn, but only by making big mistakes. The first time you play you don't know what those mistakes are. That's true of many games out there. It's easy to put yourself out of the running in Power Grid by bidding 40 on a first turn Power Plant. Bidding 6 on a first turn Prospector is roughly equivalent, it's just that each increment of 1 in Phoenicia is a bigger commitment than in Power Grid.


The piece of advice I offer when teaching the game is that the minimum bids are broadly the correct values for items, and that players should not overbid them by more than one unless they know what they're doing. This advice seems to have been successful.
Steve Perucca
flag
After a couple more plays, and a couple solo plays, I can't recommend this game over Scepter. I do like the game a bit more, but given the choice, I would always pick Scepter. If time was an issue, I'd just pick a different auction game.

Bottom line. To me, the game just doesn't "feel right." It was a decent effort, but the design seems to fall a bit short. If you've never played Scepter before, you "might" like this one.

Mark Delano
flag
0708
citylife wrote:
Phoenicia may be a good game but there must be 40 games in the top 100 on the geek which are enjoyable for the serious gamer on the first play and then continue to be enjoyable and offer as many (if not more) strategic optoins than Phoenicia.


I think Phoenicia can still be enjoyable to the first time player. They have to accept that it's a learning game though, and they may not be competitive against a serious player. I do try to give some guidelines for first time play, but it's better for the most part to let people explore the game on their own. Almost everyone that I've taught it to had a great time (or at least claimed to) even if they weren't doing well. As for strategic options, there are very few games that have more critical decisions per unit time than Phoenicia. Decisions are superbly concentrated and streamlined, making them all perfectly clear to the player while leaving each one meaningful. To me the game is a perfect example of what a stripped down quick playing strategic game should be.

No decision is without impact on the game.
Experienced players can knock off a game quickly with any number from 2 to 5 (~10 minutes per player, inexperience roughly doubles that)
Downtime is insignificant
There's enough randomness in the Development and Production card draw to provide variety
After finishing I want to play again

One of the keys to keep the game moving quickly is having at least one experienced player. The administration of the game can be done painlessly, but if people aren't clear on what needs to be done there can be some fumbling and bumbling which will consequently slow down play. With someone to direct traffic the game will be a breeze.
Brian Bankler
flag
Avatar
060708
Just to make one point ... there's a big difference between enjoyment and having a decent shot of winning (for many players).

I don't think there are many games in the Top 100 where a new player stands a serious chance of winning against experienced opponents on the first game, and those where you do have a chance boast a significant luck element. That doesn't make them less enjoyable (unless all you care about is winning]. I doubt I had a serious chance of winning my first 10 games of 1830, and I probably won the first 8-10 when I taught a new group. Likewise, I'm a serious favorite in Caylus, Age of Steam, Puerto Rico, War of the Ring, Go, etc etc etc if I'm playing to win against a new player.

Even 'light' games like Time's Up have quite a few tricks that an experienced player can pick up.

The criticism that new players will be at a (serious) disadvantage is true, but I hardly think it's unique to Phoenicia. It's certainly true of Scepter of Zavandor & Outpost, and all games with a complicated evaluation function and non-trivial decisions.
Steve Perucca
flag
I've introduced this game three times now. In all three games, the same type of comments occurred. "I don't know if I like this one yet." And, in all three games, the players were serious gamers, many who've played and like Scepter.

So, like me and the author of this post, there were doubts in the first play of this game. Even today, after 4 plays and a few solo-plays, it's just an "okay" game for me. I've picked up a few strategies, but there seems to be unbalanced cards like the Granary and Dye House that makes playing this game "unbearable" if you don't get any of these. And, god help you if you're playing against someone who gets BOTH of these cards.

You can have all the income in the world, but it means little if you can't hold it. I'm dissappointed with the double-check for storage limits in Phoenicia. It makes it too difficult for players with few storehouses.

Bottom line - I score this game at 6- for two major reasons:

1. Not a good first-play experience.
2. Unbalanced cards.
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
BoardGameGeek and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.