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Subject: Important notice for Golden Geek voters! rss

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Scott Alden
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Some of you have been voting for just *one* game and leaving the rest of the games marked N/A. Under our voting system, this is a wasted vote.

By ranking games, you are telling us how they compare to one another. If you leave a game N/A, you are essentially saying you haven't played it, and don't know whether it is better or worse than the games you have voted for. If you do this for 14 of the 15 games, you are essentially voting "no opinion."

I suggest that you rank the games you have an opinion on numerically, and leave those you have no opinion on marked N/A. But if you want your vote to simply say, "Game A is better than all the others, and I have no opinion on how the other games compare with one another," you can mark your choice a "1" and the others all "15".

More info on the Ranked Pairs voting method is here on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_Pairs

Update your votes here:
www.boardgamegeek.com/geekawards.php?action=vote
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mike
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In a true ranked pairs system, a truncated vote, ballots containing candidates set to N/A, would automatically set those not voted on to the lowest ranking.
 
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Dane Peacock
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Yes, but then what?
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BoardGameGeek » Forums » BoardGameGeek Related » BGG News
Re: Important notice for Golden Geek voters!
For those interested, the software we use is VoteEngine 0.99. You can find it here:
http://vote.sourceforge.net/index.html
It is pretty no-frills, but it works. We use the Schulze method, one of many fairly similar ways of resolving ranked pairs.

 
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Greg Frank
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I voted in numerical order on all the games I had played and left n/a on those I hadn't was this wrong?
 
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Chris Johnson
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comat0se wrote:
In a true ranked pairs system, a truncated vote, ballots containing candidates set to N/A, would automatically set those not voted on to the lowest ranking.


Which would be a reasonable assumption for how *this* vote would work, since the linked Wikipedia article specifically states:

Quote:
and unstated candidates are assumed to be equally worse than the stated candidates.


So you can hardly blame those who did that...

Assuming this is a shortcoming of the software, you might want to either link to a different explanation next year, or be extremely explicit in the instructions about this issue, and how to avoid it.
 
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Daniel Karp
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This is right. It does mean that you are expressing no preference on the games that you didn't vote for, and deferring, for those games, to the judgment of those who have played them. That is how I am voting as well.

We got the sense that some people were just voting for their favorite, and not rating the other games, whether they had played them or not. That is the wrong way to vote.
 
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fnord23 wrote:
Which would be a reasonable assumption for how *this* vote would work, since the linked Wikipedia article specifically states:

Quote:
and unstated candidates are assumed to be equally worse than the stated candidates.


So you can hardly blame those who did that...

Assuming this is a shortcoming of the software, you might want to either link to a different explanation next year, or be extremely explicit in the instructions about this issue, and how to avoid it.

It is a good thing we clarified this. I hadn't seen that in the wikipedia article--perhaps it changed since last year, although more likely, we just missed it.

This is not a shortcoming of the software, but rather a conscious decision to let people choose to cast a vote only for those games they have played, and to defer on games they haven't played to the opinion of those who have played them.
 
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Chris Johnson
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dakarp wrote:
It is a good thing we clarified this. I hadn't seen that in the wikipedia article--perhaps it changed since last year, although more likely, we just missed it.


I'm pretty sure it was there last year, too. One could always check the history of the page.

Quote:
This is not a shortcoming of the software, but rather a conscious decision to let people choose to cast a vote only for those games they have played, and to defer on games they haven't played to the opinion of those who have played them.


Or those willing to game the system. *whistles innocently*

And, you are right, in this case, it is probably a good idea to give people the option to not vote for particular games, and not have it count against the games in question.
 
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J
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If there's a game that I strongly dislike, is it better to vote or abstain for that title? And if I vote, does voting 1/2/3/15 compute any differently from 1/2/3/4?
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Daniel Karp
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rootbeer wrote:
If there's a game that I strongly dislike, is it better to vote or abstain for that title? And if I vote, does voting 1/2/3/15 compute any differently from 1/2/3/4?

It is better to vote. If you abstain, you are essentially saying you have no opinion whether the game is good or bad.

There is no difference between 1/2/3/4 and 1/2/3/15, at least among those 4 games.
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David Reed
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rootbeer wrote:
If there's a game that I strongly dislike, is it better to vote or abstain for that title? And if I vote, does voting 1/2/3/15 compute any differently from 1/2/3/4?


You've anticipated my question - I would really like to know this, as there are some games in some of these categories that I am really not impressed with (okay, I strongly dislike them or don't think that they fit in my view of the category), but there are titles in the same category that I have not played... I hate to have to rank titles that I am not familiar with, but if that's what it takes to lower the rating on a dud, so be it...
 
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Dane Peacock
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Okay, let's pretend that I strongly dislike Cleopatra (alright, we don't have to pretend). To show my strong dislike for Cleopatra in the family games section, should I:

a. Rate Cleopatra a 15 and rate the rest with N/As?
or
b. Rate Cleopatra a 15 and rate the rest with, say, 10s?
 
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David Reed
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dakarp wrote:
It is better to vote. If you abstain, you are essentially saying you have no opinion whether the game is good or bad.

There is no difference between 1/2/3/4 and 1/2/3/15, at least among those 4 games.


This makes no sense at all to me. This makes it better to just slap a rating on a game that you're not familiar that it is to leave it for others who are familiar with the game. In essence, we are encouraging people to rate games that they are not familiar with - not a good idea if we're shooting for honest ratings!
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Dane Peacock
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deacondavid wrote:
dakarp wrote:
It is better to vote. If you abstain, you are essentially saying you have no opinion whether the game is good or bad.

There is no difference between 1/2/3/4 and 1/2/3/15, at least among those 4 games.


This makes no sense at all to me. This makes it better to just slap a rating on a game that you're not familiar that it is to leave it for others who are familiar with the game. In essence, we are encouraging people to rate games that they are not familiar with - not a good idea if we're shooting for honest ratings!


Will you quit cross-posting?
 
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Dane Peacock
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Sky Knight X wrote:
Okay, let's pretend that I strongly dislike Cleopatra (alright, we don't have to pretend). To show my strong dislike for Cleopatra in the family games section, should I:

a. Rate Cleopatra a 15 and rate the rest with N/As?
or
b. Rate Cleopatra a 15 and rate the rest with, say, 10s?


Even better, say I like Blue Moon City. Should I:

a. Rate Cleopatra a 15, Rate BMC with a 1, and rate the rest with N/As?
or
b. Rate Cleopatra a 15, rate BMC with a 1, and rate the rest with, say, 10s?
 
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Dave VanderArk
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First we get nominees that are 7 and 8 years old into undefined categories. Then we get a voting system that doesn't work the way the description we're given for it says it works.

This "award" is losing credibility. First the bizarre nominations, then a voting system that people are trying to "game" to intentionally hurt some candidates. How are we to interpret the results? A true reflection of the most deserving game or the popular choice of those who best understand how to take advantage of the voting software? Or the pig with the prettiest lipstick?
 
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Daniel Karp
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deacondavid wrote:
dakarp wrote:
It is better to vote. If you abstain, you are essentially saying you have no opinion whether the game is good or bad.

There is no difference between 1/2/3/4 and 1/2/3/15, at least among those 4 games.


This makes no sense at all to me. This makes it better to just slap a rating on a game that you're not familiar that it is to leave it for others who are familiar with the game. In essence, we are encouraging people to rate games that they are not familiar with - not a good idea if we're shooting for honest ratings!

First, this is a ranking, not a rating--you are ranking games relative to one another. Second, what would make sense to you? Making the N/A's lower than everything else? That would be no different from ranking them all 15, so have at it. You can use number twice, so you don't have to express an opinion between two games you have never played. If by "better" you mean "better able to make a game I've never played lose to one I like" then you are right, it is "better" to slap a ranking on a game you are not familiar with.

But I would say it is better to vote for the games you have played, and not try to influence the games you haven't. I think it is actually quite important to the system that the N/A's are dealt with in the way that they are--if they weren't, then we WOULD be forcing people to vote against games they had never played.
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Daniel Karp
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David Vander Ark wrote:
First we get nominees that are 7 and 8 years old into undefined categories. Then we get a voting system that doesn't work the way the description we're given for it says it works.

In case you missed it, the games that were clearly too old were removed from they ballot. And, as you can see, as soon as we were aware of confusion with the voting system, we let people know exactly how it worked.

There is no perfect voting system. This seems to be one of the least flawed, although I'm sure reasonable people will disagree about that. I would certainly discourage anyone from trying to game the software, but I honestly don't think it will be a major problem. The software works in such a way that the best way to get your game to win is to cast your ballot with your preferred game higher than any of the others. That hardly seems unfair. the only point of this thread is to let people know that if they express no opinion on a particular game, their vote will be counted as "no opinion".

I suppose if there is support for this, next year we could change the wording so that 15 reads "lower than all other games", and is the default choice. I don't necessarily think this is a great idea, but I wouldn't oppose it.
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Stephen Smith
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Quote:
Okay, let's pretend that I strongly dislike Cleopatra (alright, we don't have to pretend). To show my strong dislike for Cleopatra in the family games section, should I:

a. Rate Cleopatra a 15 and rate the rest with N/As?
or
b. Rate Cleopatra a 15 and rate the rest with, say, 10s?

Even better, say I like Blue Moon City. Should I:

a. Rate Cleopatra a 15, Rate BMC with a 1, and rate the rest with N/As?
or
b. Rate Cleopatra a 15, rate BMC with a 1, and rate the rest with, say, 10s?


My understanding is that the rankings are essentially considered votes in every possible two-way race between games. Therefore, if you want Cleopatra to be hurt the worst, then you would want to rate everything else at least a little higher, so option B. Note, it does not matter how much higher since all the system looks at is whether a given game is ranked higher or lower than whichever game it is compared to. For the second situation, to benefit BMC the most, you would want to make sure it is voted higher than everything else. To still hurt Cleopatra, you would want it lower than everything else. So again, option B.
 
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Daniel Karp
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Sky Knight X wrote:
Okay, let's pretend that I strongly dislike Cleopatra (alright, we don't have to pretend). To show my strong dislike for Cleopatra in the family games section, should I:

a. Rate Cleopatra a 15 and rate the rest with N/As?
or
b. Rate Cleopatra a 15 and rate the rest with, say, 10s?

Even better, say I like Blue Moon City. Should I:

a. Rate Cleopatra a 15, Rate BMC with a 1, and rate the rest with N/As?
or
b. Rate Cleopatra a 15, rate BMC with a 1, and rate the rest with, say, 10s?


If you rate Cleopatra a 15 and the rest N/A, you are expressing no opinion on the other games, so your vote is meaningless. In fact, it is the same as rating Cleopatra a 1 and the rest N/A. so for the first set, b is the way to go.

Same with the second set--you need to rate the others between cleopatra and Blue Moon City to have your preferences counted. an N/A means you really have no opinion whether any game is better or worse than that game.

Edit: if you rate Cleopatra a 15, and BMC a 1, and the rest N/A, your preference the BMC beat Cleopatra WILL be counted. But you won't express any preferences relative to other games.
 
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Chuck Easterlin
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I appreciate the trouble you guys go to, to make this noteworthy (truly I do)... but seriously, is there an easier, more streamlined way to do this?

I don't pretend to have all the answers but if you are entrusting us with a responsibility, what's wrong with a simple polling mechanism that asks who you would chose for first place in a given category?


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David Reed
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dakarp wrote:
First, this is a ranking, not a rating--you are ranking games relative to one another.


You're quibbling semantics. The end result is the same. Yes, I am ranking games relative to one another, which is to say that I am rating them.

Quote:
Second, what would make sense to you? Making the N/A's lower than everything else? That would be no different from ranking them all 15, so have at it. You can use number twice, so you don't have to express an opinion between two games you have never played. If by "better" you mean "better able to make a game I've never played lose to one I like" then you are right, it is "better" to slap a ranking on a game you are not familiar with.


Actually, to me, it would seem that it would be reasonable that n/a would rank in between the high rankings and the low rankings. When I know that I would rather play anything - even a game that I have not heard of - instead of a game that I have played, I would rank the known game at the bottom, below the games that I have not played. Similarly, if I can not see a game fitting into my idea of a category to the point that the game would rank below any others in the category, I have to rank the known game below the games in that category that I am not familiar with. If I am being honest, the games I haven't played are best rated as n/a, hence my feeling that n/a is a neutral, middle-of-the-gap rating.

Quote:
But I would say it is better to vote for the games you have played, and not try to influence the games you haven't. I think it is actually quite important to the system that the N/A's are dealt with in the way that they are--if they weren't, then we WOULD be forcing people to vote against games they had never played.


I agree with you that folks should not rank games that they haven't played. When you state that a set that has any n/a rankings in it essentially ranks all of the games equally, you have created a problem. This is a flaw that requires comment and will force people to rank games that they have not played. I urge you to reconsider this or to clarify - I can tell from the postings here that I am not the only one who is concerned by this.

edited to clarify where I think n/a rankings should fit.
 
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deacondavid wrote:
I agree with you that folks should not rank games that they haven't played. When you state that a set that has any n/a rankings in it essentially ranks all of the games equally, you have created a problem. This is a flaw that requires comment and will force people to rank games that they have not played. I urge you to reconsider this or to clarify - I can tell from the postings here that I am not the only one who is concerned by this.

OK, there is definitely some confusion here. I didn't say (Oops--Edit--didn't MEAN to say) that a set that has any N/A essentially ranks all the games equally. A set that has 14 of 15 N/As essentially ranks all games equally, but that is because you didn't express any opinion between any two games.

Here is how the system works: It breaks down the data into a zillion (exactly that many) independent one-on-one elections. It looks at your votes for each election. If you rank Game A higher than Game B in the A vs B election, A gets a "point" in that election. if you rank game B N/A you don't participate in that one election. You will still participate in in the A vs C election, and so forth. If a game wins all of the one-on-one elections outright, it wins overall. If not, there are tie-breakers.

So, since this works by one-on-one elections, you can see how having the N/As in the "middle" doesn't really work. If they were in the middle, where would the break-point come? if a game is a 9, are the N/As above it or below it? If you want to rank some games in the middle, feel free to give them all a 7, or whatever number would go in the middle. but that is a different place for every person.
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David Reed
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Okay, this makes more sense. I can live with it (like I had any other choice), and it seems reasonable to me. Thanks for the clarification - my apologies for the misunderstanding.
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