Difficult to find thematic faults on this game.

The only thing is that the "real" Sauron could be considered an extremely poor player...

In the real book he didn't conquest a single stronghold!

The Shadow armies managed to temporary conquer only Dale , Edoras and (maybe) Pelargir.

How much is it? 3VP!

Before the Mt Doom journey he even managed to lose Orthanc!

Ciao

I've been reading Tolkien's "Letters" recently and one thing stands out. Tolkien is quite clear that no one in Middle Earth could have willingly thrown the ring in the fire at the Sammath Naur. It happened by accident in the book (Gollum fell in - and Gollum wouldn't have been there to do that if Frodo had killed him earlier, so pity pays off and all that - a major Tolkien theme). If Smeagol had stayed loyal to Frodo instead of turning back into Gollum due mostly to Sam, Smeagol might have stolen the ring from Frodo but then willingly jumped in with it on, Tolkien says. Much more remote alternatives could have been Frodo jumping in himself with the ring, or a Companion tossing Frodo in after he refused to dunk it himself.

Rules could be added to adjust for this but I think the real significance is that if Smeagol/Gollum is not the Guide when the ring is dunked, then Frodo himself is probably taking a hot bath, and Sam or another Companion may have thrown him in. Still a win for the Free, but not the warm fuzzy ending imagined in our session reports.

By the way, in one of the letters, Tolkien outlines an "alternate ending" where there is no Gollum and the Ringwraiths meet Frodo at Sammath Naur. I won't spoil it for you but it's pretty interesting.

There are already some house rules out there that add to the theme, for example being able to heal corruption more easily by declaring in Rivendell.

One thing that bugs me is that it is a good idea to "hide" Aragorn by putting him in an area all by himself. If he stays with an army (e.g. besieged in Minas Tirith, as in the book), he can be killed and you lose the die. I frown on such cowardly tactics!

How about:

The North shouldn't be a nation, in the same sense as Gondor and Rohan are. Do the hobbits of the Shire give a flying hoot about Dale? Do they even know what Dale is? Why does one go to war when the other is attacked?

DEW arguably should be a nation. The three-and-a-half allied races in that area had enjoyed a prosperous peace after the defeat of the dragon Smaug and goblin armies. The elven ties with the men of dale, for example, seemed a lot more immediate than their concern for the bluebloods in remote Imladris.

The shadow armies also conquered the Shire. At least, it was under Saruman's control by then, more or less.
I don't think Sauron was a bad player, he just got hosed by the Fellowship card draw. I mean, all the Ents cards came out, and the witch-king killing blade and a Power to Great and the Power of Tom Bombadil (which he must have discarded to get the Shire) and the paths of the dead etc etc etc...

The Free Peoples simply should not be able to win a military victory. Their only salvation lies in destroying the Ring, and the only reasons for their military actions are to distract Sauron and defend themselves while waiting for the Ring's destruction. The game's notion that it would be easy to ditch the Ring after Sauron's military defeat isn't true to the source material, as Alan noted above.

Still a great game, though.

I think "distracting Sauron" is the whole idea behind the military victory. Once Sauron has lost two strongholds, he'll be so distracted fighting the war that he won't notice the hobbits sneaking into his domain. Or even if he does, he won't realize they are carrying the Ring and won't have the spare troops to capture the "spies."

> The Free Peoples simply should not be able to win a military victory.

Yes, but, it is brilliant "design for effect." It very effectively (to me) recreates the "fear of attack by a new Ring Lord" that played on Sauron's cowardice and guided all his actions. Taking away the need for some caution for the Shadow would make the "feel" of the game far less "historical."

Oh, I completely agree! I'm only responding to the original question by pointing out that no matter what else happens, the FP "should" only be able to win by dunking the Ring. It's a difference between the game and the book, but I don't think that the game should be changed because of it.

I loved the movies too, and they departed from the book a lot farther than the game does!

Great discussion!

Did Saruman conquered the Shire before or after the ring dropping?

How would you call DEW? Rhovanion? It should have a multiracial pool
maybe evidenced by a different colour

How would you call the non "Western" North? Arnor? Eriador?

Shire + Bree doesn't seem to be militarily worth much .

What about mixing it with the Grey-Havens/Rivendell Elves and Ered Luin in order to create another sizeable multiracial empire?

What were IYO the major differencies between the movie and the book?

There were lots of relatively minor things, like skipping the whole Crickhollow-Old Forest-Tom Bombadil sequence, that didn't upset me. It's a shame the cut the Scouring of the Shire, though, because I think that was a truly important part of the story. Some characters from the book were folded together: instead of Glorfindel, the movie had Arwen riding Frodo over the Ford of Bruinen. That sort of thing didn't bother me either. I was mostly bothered when they changed a major character's motivations or, um, character. Aragorn, for example, should not have shown any doubt about whether he should try to become King. Gimli was over-used for comic relief (although it was well done). So were Merry and Pippin who, by the end, should not have been a pair of adolescent clowns any more.

There's more. It's a mistake to get me started.

Continue PLEEASE ....

Besides, DEW North would be weakened, which is not a bad thing after all..

I smell a variant here...

East & West Variant
Add a "DEW Political Counter" and "Eriador Political Counter" to step 3 of the political track.

These are "Meta Nations", with borders overlapping "real nations". For DEW its everything within 3 regions of Woodland Realm. For Eriador, its everything west of the Misty Mountains.

The meta nation's political counter gets incremented whenever a Free People's settlement within the borders is captured, or whenever a Free People's army within the borders is attacked. They can also be mustered politically with muster dice.

Note that these meta-nations "stack" with the Elves and Dwarves and the North politcal counters. Attack Rivendell, and you move both the Eriador and Elf counters.

Note also that Lorien isn't part of any meta nation. Being haughty doesn't pay, I guess.

Meta nations don't care about activation, but their component nations can't do anything fancy if they're inactive. Otherwise, if DEW or Eriador is "At War", then the member units can attack or move into their meta-nation's regions, and muster at their respective settlements.

Example: DEW is one step from War. Suddenly, Dale is captured. Dew goes to "At War", and the North is activated, if it wasn't already. Since the Elves and North are now active, these regions are close to Woodland Realm, now Carrock and Woodland Realm may muster units and their armies are free to move into nearby allied nation's borders. If the Dwarves were active too, they could also muster and attack in Erebor and Iron Hills.

A few event card touchups:
Fear! Fire! Foes! activates the North, and puts the FP's choice of The North or Eriador to War.
There and Back Again becomes:
Seperate a group of companions and allow them to move one extra region.
If, after this move, Gimli or Legolas is in DEW, move DEW to "At War", activate The North and Dwarves, and move the North, Dwarves, and Elves one step forward each on the political track.

Why don't we keep Rhovanion as a Tolkien name? ...
With Lorien included?





The most realistic solution IMO should be to keep separate pool for the 2 meta - nations (Eriador, Rhovanion) and treat them as normal political multiracial entities.

Maybe the game could become more balanced and realistic.

Of course : they'll substitute Dwarfs, Elves and North.
GOOD: less activation mustering handicaps for the FP.

Rhovinion is stylistically a better name than "DEW".

But, do you really think Lorien belongs, given that
(1) Lorien didn't participate in the Battle of the Five Armies.
(2) As given by Gimli's stereotype, the Dwarves of Erebor didn't think too highly of the elves of Lorien. They were more alien than the elves of Mirkwood.
(3) Lorien is much much farther from the others.
(4) Traditionally Lorien has relied more on elvish magic than alliances for defense. With the others its the opposite.

My feeling is that Lorien is a place apart, both in time and diplomatically, and this should be reflected by the political system.

That East & West variant sounds all well and dandy, but just how do you distinguish Rivendell's armies from Woodland Realm's armies?
I know, the two aren't likely to come into contact, but it's still a valid concern!

Its tied to geography. If Eriador is at war, and pacifist Grimbeorn marches to Dimril Dale, then, hullo! He can attack Moria because its West of the Misty Mountains.

Of course this is a pathological example and won't happen in practice, because the FP don't have dice to go for these long-distance strolls.

I think the biggest departure from the book (and there are hardly any) is the unshakable alliance between Saruman and Sauron. It was anything but in the books. I know there is an "Independent Saruman" version somewhere on this website; I'd like to see it. It would make things especially interesting in 3- or 4-player games!

This is a minor concern. It barely diminishes my absolute LOVE of this game.

Quick question: could someone explain to me how they think the game is imbalanced? which way? I have seen many posts on BBG that say opposite things about who the game favors. My own experience has been that the game is relatively fair, but...

The biggest departure is that, in the books, there is always space enough to put in your armies

definately Faramir. In the books, he's a total good guy. In the movie, he doesn't let Frodo go, until the meaningless scene at Osgiliath, where he sees Frodo menaced by the Nazgul, then decides to let him go, because he now "understands" Frodo. WTH???