geek
The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Rules | Subscriptions | Bookmarks | Search | Account | Moderators
Robert Mills
United Kingdom
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmb
Twilight Struggle » Forums » Reviews
What you get (or how I learned to stop hating the bits)
Well i just got a load of games and was really looking forward to this one...the most expensive here in Uk by the way.

I opened the box and all i can say it was an anticlimax. One sheet of thin and hard to extract tokens. A lot of thick cards, 2 ok dice and a rather nice but also very crummy card map. oh lets not forget the rules and some sheets. Compared to Ra, Carcassonne-Discovery and Santiago for instance the quality of the bits was rather poor.

Not a good start....I payed how much for this cheap nasty rubbish!!!

The cards and dice are actually rather good but getting them back in the box was a tough one as I put them in deck protectors to help keep them safe. The cards are thick and the best bits in the box...they are also core to the game so at least they got that right

The map like a lot of GMT games was dire (**cough** CC Ancients **cough**, BTW also very expensive) and I can see why some people have commented on it. Thankfully its not as dire as the paper thin maps you get with the Battletech intro box. It is heavily creased and looks like it will need a lot of weight to flatten out nicely. However having said all that it is a rather nice looking map

My next gripe was the tokens/chits/whatever...I had dificulty getting these out and they felt rather thin. In fact a few tried to peel away as I pulled them out. me rushing?? maybe but I was annoyed. Santiago for instance almost fell out by itself just by waving the sheet around. In fact it took me more time to fiddle with these suckers then to get both ra and santiago unpacked and put away. I would rather they had gone down the CCA route of wooden blocks with stickers. the chits are small fiddly and a pain...again like the map they do look nice however. they come with 5 or 6 bags to put them in but i have not come up with a filing system yet. And there is a lot of them so i will need to file them, I like the look of plastic tackle box ideas posted here

Ok so i have moaned and griped but what do i think. Well the rules look great and the bits all look great. The key bits, the cards, are very nice and from a read through of the rules plus my love of the theme I think this is a great game.

The only real moan is that I paid a lot of money for this one game and feel a bit ripped off from a component point of view. I got ra and santiago for the same price as twilight struggle by itself.

However I think that after a few plays the quality of the play experence will help me forgot the cheapness of the parts. After all the game is whats important at the end of the day not the bits

I say buy the game its looks great but just dont stress yourself over the bits

Pros-
Great theme
Looks nice
Plays great (i hear)
custom bits make it look and feel great IMO

Cons-
How much for these bits??
you need custom bits to make it feel great IMO



brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron060708
mbmbmbmbmb
This really is the standard issue from GMT game from the board, to the bits, to the price. In fact, it comes with GMT's "deluxe" board. Here I Stand (which I purchased right after playing TS a few times) has the paper map and much thinner cards.

Not all of the price tag goes into the components. The design is near flawless and that is well worth the price alone. Once you play it, I am sure you will find the same.
Jason Freer
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
It is a great game. One of my favorites.

In fact, Anye and I recently played it on our trip to Michigan. We used the Travel map found in the files area.

It worked out just fine.

Don't let the pieces distract your from playing this game. You won't be disappointed.

Robert Mills
United Kingdom
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmb
Considering the cost vs Ra and the quality difference it leaves a bad taste in the mouth

However I agree with both of you..the game looks great and sounds like it will be a great game to play. I dont regret buying it (yet)

Just very sad that they could not spend a tiny bit more on the thickness of the chits and also putting a better map in the box (not a comment on the look of the map which is great) but the material they have used does not fold well. ill look into the files section and maybe make my own a4 based map

Matthew M Monin
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
admin
Avatar
040506070809
mbmbmbmbmb
trebormills wrote:
Considering the cost vs Ra and the quality difference it leaves a bad taste in the mouth



That's like comparing the special effects in an independent movie to a Hollywood production, despite paying the same price for your ticket. It's an inappropriate comparison. The average euro print run of 3000 is still significantly larger than the average print run for a wargame. Retail price is keyed into production costs/game, and that differs greatly based upon the number of copies that are printed.

-MMM
Last edited on 2007-10-16 14:10:39 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Robert Mills
United Kingdom
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmb
Octavian wrote:
trebormills wrote:
Considering the cost vs Ra and the quality difference it leaves a bad taste in the mouth



That's like comparing the special effects in an independent movie to a Hollywood production, despite paying the same price for your ticket. It's an inappropriate comparison. The average euro print run of 3000 is still significantly larger than the average print run for a wargame. Retail price is keyed into production costs/game, and that differs greatly based upon the number of copies that are printed.

-MMM


BTW Ra cost 50% less than Twi Struggle for me here in UK so the analagy not quite perfect but i take your point

An intresting observation... and might explain things

Ta

rob
Jeff Thompson
United States
Homewood
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron07
mbmb
And imagine the amount of research that goes into the theme of a Euro...

None?

Imagine the amount of research that went into TS? Even the rulebook has a paragraph of extra historical context for each card.

If you had to pay for a game based on research for theme, TS would cost 100s of times that of a Euro.

How long do you think it took to come up with the "formula" for building the various components of Settlers of Cataan?

Ok, how long did it take to compile all the ideas for the cards, all the stability numbers for the countries, how to arrange the countries, etc. in TS?

It's true, anytime someone rips the component quality of TS I can't help but opening my mouth.

I'm 100%+ satisfied with my TS components. In fact I found the game an absolute bargain and a pure joy to play.
Robert Mills
United Kingdom
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmb
Tompy wrote:
And imagine the amount of research that goes into the theme of a Euro...

None?

Imagine the amount of research that went into TS? Even the rulebook has a paragraph of extra historical context for each card.

If you had to pay for a game based on research for theme, TS would cost 100s of times that of a Euro.

How long do you think it took to come up with the "formula" for building the various components of Settlers of Cataan?

Ok, how long did it take to compile all the ideas for the cards, all the stability numbers for the countries, how to arrange the countries, etc. in TS?

It's true, anytime someone rips the component quality of TS I can't help but opening my mouth.

I'm 100%+ satisfied with my TS components. In fact I found the game an absolute bargain and a pure joy to play.


Quote:
Not all of the price tag goes into the components. The design is near flawless and that is well worth the price alone. Once you play it, I am sure you will find the same.


I think your being a bit unfair on some euros (assuming die marcher qualifies as euro i will cite that as an example ??) but you are right TS seems well researched which takes time and that means money. Also as you say the gameplay is what keeps you playing "pure joy" and the more play you get the better value the game.

I agree with you both...

I hope people dont think i hate this game and regret buying it...cos I dont.
Last edited on 2007-10-16 15:22:32 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Baron von Doom
United States
Dacula
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Having just purchased the game myself, I indulged an extra $10 USD for a sheet of plexiglass.

Boy, what an improvement!! The board now looks awesome.


-d
Iain K
United States
Lakewood
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0405
Tompy wrote:
And imagine the amount of research that goes into the theme of a Euro...

None?

Imagine the amount of research that went into TS? Even the rulebook has a paragraph of extra historical context for each card.

If you had to pay for a game based on research for theme, TS would cost 100s of times that of a Euro.

How long do you think it took to come up with the "formula" for building the various components of Settlers of Cataan?

Ok, how long did it take to compile all the ideas for the cards, all the stability numbers for the countries, how to arrange the countries, etc. in TS?


This is a funny argument when you consider that the game's designer told Aldie in an interview here on the Geek that he earns about a buck per copy of TS sold.

So remind me, how exactly am I paying for the designer's efforts?

TS is a very good game. But its physical quality is low to put it kindly.

Consider that 1960 is a less expensive game by the same designer and has superior components.
John Paul Sodusta
United States
Santa Barbara
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0708
mbmbmbmbmb
Doesn't GMT "buys" the game from the designer and the $1 per copy sold is just royalties? If that is the case the $1 per copy the designer recieves is just icing on the cake.
Jeroen van der Valk
Netherlands
Gouda
Zuid Holland
flag msg tools
Avatar
0406070809
mbmbmbmbmb
So how is this a review? :what:
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron060708
mbmbmbmbmb
citizen k wrote:
Consider that 1960 is a less expensive game by the same designer and has superior components.

While it is a different game, 1960 greatly benefits from the groundwork laid out by TS. In addition to that, the popularity of TS will help initial sales of 1960. (I was ready to buy this game blind even before I read the rules or saw more than the proto-type components based soley on the Jason's work on TS.)

I assume that allowed Z-Man to commit to a greater risk on that game and either issue a larger print run reducing costs which he pumped back into the components or just taking smaller profit margins betting that the volume of sales would make up the difference.
Karl Schmit
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron050708
mbmbmbmbmb
jvdv wrote:
So how is this a review? :what:
It was a review of the crappy(by Eurogame standards) components.
Robert Mills
United Kingdom
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmb
jvdv wrote:
So how is this a review? :what:



It is a review of the bits you get in the box..... basically I think the bits could have done with more work on the quality. The game itself however is fine from what i have heard/seen/read.

if you dont feel its a review thats fine with me.

But when buying games I like to know what I am getting so a review of the parts IMO is required. There are lots of reviews about the rules and the mechanics so i felt a review focussing on bits was a good idea

Also read the title of the review it quite clearly stated its a review of the bits (in a dr strangelove sort of way) and the purpose of it was to say yes the bits feel a bit shoddy and yes i felt shortchanged BUT the game is a gem and at the end of the day play is what gets you into a game not the bits

I hope that answers you query..
Last edited on 2007-10-16 17:14:36 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Robert Mills
United Kingdom
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmb
Baron von Doom wrote:
Having just purchased the game myself, I indulged an extra $10 USD for a sheet of plexiglass.

Boy, what an improvement!! The board now looks awesome.


-d


The only issue I see with that is lugging around a lump of plexiglass but it does sound like a nice idea

i have a 40 min drive to my local games club.... with plexiglass flying around in car it could get a bit exciting.

Worth a look I guess...I think i saw an image in gallery..Ill go have another look
フィル
Australia
Newtown
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robert, most games of this type come with a thin paper map (TS is considered a deluxe map in this niche). So if you like Twilight Struggle and end up buying more GMT games, a sheet of plexi is a good investment. I don't know if it's worth buying just for one game, though.
Randy Dreger
Australia
Ballarat
Victoria
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron09
mbmbmbmbmb
trebormills wrote:
i have a 40 min drive to my local games club.... with plexiglass flying around in car it could get a bit exciting.


Make sure you remember to file down the sharpened edges first! zombie
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
040506070809
mbmbmbmbmb
ColtsFan76 wrote:
citizen k wrote:
Consider that 1960 is a less expensive game by the same designer and has superior components.

While it is a different game, 1960 greatly benefits from the groundwork laid out by TS. In addition to that, the popularity of TS will help initial sales of 1960. (I was ready to buy this game blind even before I read the rules or saw more than the proto-type components based soley on the Jason's work on TS.)

I assume that allowed Z-Man to commit to a greater risk on that game and either issue a larger print run reducing costs which he pumped back into the components or just taking smaller profit margins betting that the volume of sales would make up the difference.


There's always an excuse for why GMT can't possibly put a mounted board into their games, but plenty of other small publishers do. Now we will have the hordes of "I prefer crappy components" posts that will pooh-pooh your concerns...
tiger tiger
United States
Lexington
South Carolina
flag msg tools
mb
I do wish the deluxe maps were heavy enough to lay flat, without backbending or weights on top. Other than that though I have no complaints. The chits are standard for Gmt's other wargames. I'm sure it would cost them quite a bit more to make thicker chits just for one game. Can't remember if they're the 1/2" or 5/8" size.
Michael Debije
Netherlands
Eindhoven
The Netherlands
flag msg tools
Believe it or not, some people actually DO prefer the cardboard counters and the paper mats, as bizarre as that may sound. I cringed when I heard the call for wooden blocks for TS: what a terrible mess! The counters are easy and fast to read. There are plenty of companies providing games with 'nicer' bits for you, but I don't think they are making innovative games like TS or Here I Stand. To each his own: if it is too expensive to you, don't buy it. I think it is ridiculous to be expected to pay in excess of $60 for a box of plastic miniatures with no game attached, like Twilight Imperium 3 or Descent. So, yes, I pooh-pooh his complaints, just as you will 'pooh-pooh' mine.
Robert Mills
United Kingdom
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmb
to put some perspective on things for me in the uk the following is true...You may hate the following cames BUT the following are cheaper than twilight struggle....

Arkham horror comes with nice thick high quality bits
Ra/Santiago/Carcassonne are massively cheaper and come with very nice thick bits. even Carcassonne The city is cheaper

others as examples

Age of empires
Axis and allies
Die marcher
WOW deluxe set with 4 minis
tannuhauser (sorry if spelling off)

Hell even Doom is cheaper !!!


It seems in fact that lots are games are cheaper (over 1000 in fact according to one dealers website). Thats why I expected more from the parts inside.

However as others have said your not always paying for the bits.

The artwork is fantastic, the concept is great, the game sems to be gem and its a hit. If you can "Learn to stop hating the bits" then you will not regret buying this game...if you cant get over the bits I suggest you still buy this game but be aware of its faults (ie the bits) and be prepared to do some custom parts.

If you cant even do that then your beyond help or redemption :p

Edit is the ps below

PS-
In uk seems to be about £40 which is somewhere between $60 and $80 then there is shipping on top. Ra and Carcasonne(with river) together add up to about £40. Doom is £39

PPS
And if any smart alex says i could have got it for 50% cheaper i may have to slap them :p
Last edited on 2007-10-17 10:47:48 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Robert Mills
United Kingdom
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmb
mi_de wrote:
Believe it or not, some people actually DO prefer the cardboard counters and the paper mats, as bizarre as that may sound. I cringed when I heard the call for wooden blocks for TS: what a terrible mess! The counters are easy and fast to read. There are plenty of companies providing games with 'nicer' bits for you, but I don't think they are making innovative games like TS or Here I Stand. To each his own: if it is too expensive to you, don't buy it. I think it is ridiculous to be expected to pay in excess of $60 for a box of plastic miniatures with no game attached, like Twilight Imperium 3 or Descent. So, yes, I pooh-pooh his complaints, just as you will 'pooh-pooh' mine.


Glad to hear you like the bits...what do you do about the map not folding out flat straight out the box??

ta
Robert Mills
United Kingdom
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmb
trebormills wrote:
to put some perspective on things for me in the uk the following is true...You may hate the following cames BUT the following are cheaper than twilight struggle....
Quoting myself now....:arrrh:

In the interest of fairness the following cost more than twi struggle

Descent
World of Warcraft
C&C Ancients
Battlelore
CC Europe
Carcasonne big box
Indonesia
Tide of iron
Go (delux folding suitcase wood box edition)

and a few others (about 30 in fact in total)
Robert Mills
United Kingdom
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmb
sbszine wrote:
Robert, most games of this type come with a thin paper map (TS is considered a deluxe map in this niche). So if you like Twilight Struggle and end up buying more GMT games, a sheet of plexi is a good investment. I don't know if it's worth buying just for one game, though.


I have C&C ancients and I almost prefer the cheaper nastier paper to the Twi Struggle card. Also as mentioned I have battletech and thats quite nasty paper. I also own Battlelore and I prefer that over any of the GMT products. I gues I just love mounted boards or no board at all. these paper sheets just dont cut it

Of course the artwork on the diferent boards is a different story... TS wins by a mile. Then there is that custom map on the forum
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
BoardGameGeek and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.