geek
The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Rules | Subscriptions | Bookmarks | Search | Account | Moderators
Recommend
10
11 Posts
New Thread | Printer Friendly | Subscribe  sub options | Bookmark
Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: strategy [+] [View All]
Mark
United States

Midwest
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron06070809
Kingsburg » Forums » Strategy
Building Discussion
After 4 plays and finding myself thinking about the game more than I should, I'm very impressed with how well balanced the building tracks are. That said, it would seem that much of the strategy revolves around your favored choice of building. Also, once you go after a certain building strategy, much of what you do is covering it's weaknesses.

Main strategy: Roll high ;)

Alternate Strategies?

Here's a discussion of the building tracks, starting with the resources, VPs, and ratio of VPs to resources.

Cathedral: 20 resource, 24 VP, 1.2 VPs per resource
Advantages - Efficient, pure VP play with good insurance powers on the early two buildings
Disadvantages – No defense except a +1 to Demons from the church. The top buildings require so many resources that timing becomes a problem if not started early enough.

Merchant's Guild: 18 resources, 7 VPs, 0.39 VP per resource
Advantages - Best powers for making extra resources, VP, and avoiding lock-outs from other players. Significantly improves your chances for the highest rolls, especially the coveted 17. The Merchant's Guild is decent VP and extra gold is quite valuable.
Disadvantages - low VP, defense penalty, & probably the most risky, especially past the first two buildings. With the extra die, you'll probably go last a lot, and other players taking the soldiers could be crucial to improving your reduced defense.

Wizard's Guild: 17 Resources,13 VPs, 0.75 VPs per resource
Advantages – 4 defense, plus the ability to buy soldiers for 1/2 cost.
Disadvantages - none.

Fortress: 14 Resources, 8 VPs, 0.57 VPs per resource
Advantages – 3 defense, plus a bonus soldier for each placement.
Disadvantages - Low on VPs

Embassy: 13* resources, 7* VPs, 0.64* VPs per resource
Advantages – this is the least expensive track, and a big VP play. The -1 gold of the crane is going to help immediately on this row, and possibly more. If done early, the +1 VP per productive season is going to pay off extremely well, and the town hall only increases its potential.
Disadvantages – to maximize its VP, you may fall behind on defense.does not include bonuses. *Assuming the Embassy is up and running by summer of turn 3 the real cost and VP are 11 resources, 15 VPs, 1.36 VPs per resource.

Given this limited analysis, I would say the top priority should be to get the Embassy up and running as soon as safely possible. Obviously you need to have enough soldiers or bonuses to defend it since losing a 6 resource building would be a big hit. Stone can potentially be hard to get, especially in a crowded board, but you can start with a stone as your first resource. You can also use the stone for the guard tower if needed for defense. Having a cheap opener also means you will not fall behind on buildings, which give 1 VP in phase 3 King's reward.

Secondarily, I find the Stable to be a favorite, but that is partly a function of needing defense after getting the Embassy up.

I think Kingsburg offers a neat variety of replay with differing numbers of players, making certain buildings more or less valuable. Also, since there's plenty of die rolling, it's fun to experiment with different buildings to see how they play regardless of how you're scoring.
Robert Ramirez
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron05060708
mbmbmbmbmb
Nice article.

I've played only once (at BGG con), and liked the game quite a bit: dice rolling (big fan of To Court the King), great art and theme, etc.

Now, it may have been that it was the first game to all 5 of us who were playing, but it seemed to me that if someone maximizes the cathedral track, it was almost impossible to catch up to them unless you pushed for that building track too (after all, it provides the buildings with the most VP's).

I got somewhat close to the leader who had maximized this track because mid game I decided to push that track too. Another player did the same, but like me, did not have enough time to beat the leader (we didn't get to build the last building).

So am I not correct in asuming that it's tough to beat a maximized cathedral track?

Andrea Chiarvesio
Italy
Torino
Piemonte
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes nice article.

I cannot comment on the building analysys, being one of the designers my ideas could influence you...
Robert Ramirez
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron05060708
mbmbmbmbmb
But I want some influence! :laugh:
Andrea Chiarvesio
Italy
Torino
Piemonte
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Disclaimer: I am speaking here for myself, Luca (the other author) may have different views on the game.

The basic Kingsburg game (in the way it has been released and published), has a couple of possible strategies (let alone the obvious one: good dice rolls).

1) Embassy rush: you already explained why it's a solid strategy. It's solid, but doesn't win that often, in my records (a lot of 2nd and 3rd placements, however).

2) Merchant Guild rush: rush the 2nd row and protect it. The extra gold will help you in filling also row 1. This is very strong, if you can survive year II and III battles (you'll need some luck with the King's help). Many 1st places, but also some 4th and even 5th, if it really goes wrong.

3) Military way: try to be always the best winner in the end of the year battle, and block advisors # 5 and #10 to your opponents when they will sudden realize they need them (which is likely autumn). You will want strong enemies to succeed, but it's stonger than it may seem

4) The beggar and the Queen: concentrate on row #2 and #4 and assure to be the one getting the help in phase #1 and #5. This will likely allow you to score 12-15 points in the last two years by playing on the advisor # 17 (the Queen). And you can really draw your way to victory.

5) Wait and see (and many small buildings): don't really choose a path before the end of year III. You will likely always get the extra VP in phase 3 and never have problems with the early fights. Then usually you go for the Cathedral. This is a strategy often choosen by newbies, but sometimes it performs better than expected.

There are other ways to play and win at Kingsburg, this is just a short overview of popular options among playesters...

have fun

Last edited on 2007-12-11 08:20:49 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Robert Ramirez
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron05060708
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, excellent ideas. I particularly like the military one; seems to be the most creative.

Bottomline is, I need to play it more. Thanks!
Matteo Batteo
Italy
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
First of all one little advice: never lose in the battle. Usually losing the battles is the best way to lose the game. This doesn't mean that winning the battles guarantees the winning of the game.

Coming back to the Strategy discussion I find the pure Militar way very difficult to archive. This because at least you can obtain 5 points from the battles (if you are the strongest winner) and probably 3 point from the fortress. For sure if you can manage to "steal" all the mercenary in the most difficult battle of the game (the last one) the other player will lose that battle and so you can obtain other 12-15 vp (the ones that you can obtain plus the ones that the other will lose), but here comes the advice above. Usually if I don't go to the military strategy in the last year first of all I manage to obtain the mercenary and then to obtain the resource.

The embassy and merchant rush can be very powerful but only if you can protect for the battle and if you can finish the line in the first two year. Otherwise they can be very difficult.

Usually I like what Andrea call Wait and see.
Basically because there are a lot of good buildings in the first 2 column.
For example I find very important the stable: it's very important obtain the most mercenary in the less time possible and this is the best way.
Other "must have" buildings are the Inn (the first or the second building in the game) and the market: they can give you a very powerful flessibility in the game.
The Crane it's a kind of poor merchant's guild but comparing the cost I find also more powerful.
Also obtain the blacksmith it important for the last turn (+2 in the battle)
So in short there are at least 3 rows (excluding the crane) in witch I would like to invest two buildings, both for flessibility and managing the battles, and this it's the strength of this strategy the flessibility and the risk management.

Last edited on 2007-12-13 09:49:14 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Mark
United States

Midwest
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron06070809

It's worth mentioning that the number of players slows down resource collection.

FWLIW, my last session was a 4 player with the embassy rush winning. The player used the town hall often as well, which is a good vp converter.

Several players in our group love the Farm strategy, regardless of whether it wins or not simply because they enjoy throwing more dice and getting more possibilities.
Mark
United States

Midwest
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron06070809
tanis wrote:
Disclaimer: I am speaking here for myself, Luca (the other author) may have different views on the game.

The basic Kingsburg game (in the way it has been released and published), has a couple of possible strategies (let alone the obvious one: good dice rolls).

1) Embassy rush: you already explained why it's a solid strategy. It's solid, but doesn't win that often, in my records (a lot of 2nd and 3rd placements, however).

2) Merchant Guild rush: rush the 2nd row and protect it. The extra gold will help you in filling also row 1. This is very strong, if you can survive year II and III battles (you'll need some luck with the King's help). Many 1st places, but also some 4th and even 5th, if it really goes wrong.

3) Military way: try to be always the best winner in the end of the year battle, and block advisors # 5 and #10 to your opponents when they will sudden realize they need them (which is likely autumn). You will want strong enemies to succeed, but it's stonger than it may seem

4) The beggar and the Queen: concentrate on row #2 and #4 and assure to be the one getting the help in phase #1 and #5. This will likely allow you to score 12-15 points in the last two years by playing on the advisor # 17 (the Queen). And you can really draw your way to victory.

5) Wait and see (and many small buildings): don't really choose a path before the end of year III. You will likely always get the extra VP in phase 3 and never have problems with the early fights. Then usually you go for the Cathedral. This is a strategy often choosen by newbies, but sometimes it performs better than expected.

There are other ways to play and win at Kingsburg, this is just a short overview of popular options among playesters...

have fun



Update:
FWIW, after many plays, the Farm strategy seems to be a somewhat more common winner, especially in 3 player games. Start on row 4 or row 3 for protection, working on row 2 as much as possible.

In a 5 player game, the embassy rush seems to be pretty competitive.

The game is so well balanced that no strategy is going to be far above the others though. If there is a "strategy" it seems to be to maximize resources, which the Farm helps quite a bit, assuming you are also careful to protect it.
Dennison Milenkaya
United States

Washington
flag msg tools
mb
Gamer_Dog wrote:
After 4 plays and finding myself thinking about the game more than I should, I'm very impressed with how well balanced the building tracks are. That said, it would seem that much of the strategy revolves around your favored choice of building. Also, once you go after a certain building strategy, much of what you do is covering it's weaknesses.

Main strategy: Roll high ;)


I recently played this game for the first time and I've a few observations relating to this topic.

I may be simply too new to the game to fully take advantage of the building combinations possible but I've noticed partway thru that I'm making a mistake. The two players that have played previously mentioned ahead of time that the Market was a good early buy, so I did that. I think this is a good choice, as it gives far more flexibility. With a few early low rolls, I also constructed a couple buildings on the upper track, toward the Cathedral. The first building's effect never kicked in but I'm sure that's just a really good thing to have if you ever do roll all same numbers on each die. It isn't something that you need to have occur during a game, since the only thing you can hope for is a varied result which you have anytime you can't use the effect. The second building gives some protection against rolling really low. I liked this effect and made one of those. It also never kicked in for me, but that's also something that doesn't hurt to not have occur. I wonder if the total allowed for a re-roll should be higher though (8 instead of 7) especially because after I built the third on the track, I noticed my error and built the third on the Merchant Guild track which provides a fourth die and it is highly unlikely one would ever roll so low--and not already have all 1s. Mostly, I was attracted to the Cathedral track because it gives protection from poor rolls and has a lot of Victory Points. Well, aside from an unlikely +1 in combat, the third and fourth buildings do nothing except provide a lot of points and points do nothing until the end of the game.

Then I started looking at other buildings that provide more along the way. The Merchant's Guild does give a Gold building material each production season, so that is good to establish early. The Farms provide that extra die every season, so that's also good early. Along with the Market, the second track is clearly the way to go. Sure, the Farms have a slight disadvantage built in, but still easily worthwhile.

The third and fourth track are lackluster, although they do provide combat bonuses which are only useful up to 5 times per game and that's after you build them and sometimes you won't win with them or won't lose without them, so not a great investment. That said, there are some attractive points to score there as well.

Then there's the Embassy track. For second-level buildings, the Crane is easily going to help quite often, probably second most to the Market, and once you have the Market, you'll probably want the Crane before building the Farms or Merchant Guild. Also, going all the way to the Embassy is going to get you more points for doing that sooner. Now, I don't doubt that my assessment is correct inasmuch as directly after realizing this, I looked up at the building tracks of the other players and of the two that have played previously, one had built a Market and completed the Embassy, the other was almost to the Embassy and simply trying to collect the last few building materials. The other inexperienced player was all over the chart.

So I built the Crane, cheap as it is, and then plowed some Fields, as I figured these would help me catch up faster, then built up to the Embassy. I was able to complete the Merchant Guild, much too late for it to pay off, but the game was coming to a close by now and I needed the points. By the time the final production season ended, I had many building materials, but I was far from the required set to make the Cathedral, which I put off after realizing it was a waste of building materials that I could re-invest meanwhile and it really came down to the last roll of the dice not going my way to purchase the Cathedral.

I also think I missed about 3 Victory Points for some minor buildings along the way, due to being new and not too aware of tracking points as they are built. I do not credit my loss to this.

It was a run-away win. The player with the most experience--and that did roll highest most often (see Main Strategy)--built the Market, Embassy, completed the Merchant Guild, and managed to quickly establish a Cathedral. The other experienced player didn't quite get so many fourth-rank buildings, but he did make a few military buildings early on (thus his delay in the Embassy) and managed to win a couple fights. I also won a few fights and was victorious once.

The winner only won two fights based solely on the die roll and the +1 vs Goblins from the Embassy track, in spite of the Farms. She never hired Soldiers nor constructed military buildings. The Dragon during the darkest Winter shook us all and did nothing to affect her lead. She was ahead ~20 points before that Winter, and nearly topped 50 overall, so if she'd lost to the Dragon and everyone else bested it, this would've changed nothing.

This isn't a session report, though, it is a rebuff to the statement about the building tracks being well-balanced. I don't believe that they are at all. Clearly the second and fifth tracks are best to establish earliest and the first track to purchase in the final crunch. Since I noticed this after I got a feel for the game and noticed this is just what the eventual winner (who was neck-and-neck with me up to 25 points, where I pretty much remained) did for a smashing victory, I'm convinced that it is the way to go. I just don't see any other plans paying off as well.

I've read here on Board Game Geek that there is merit to a military strategy. It is said that it isn't easy, but you can block other players from getting Soldiers and muster some great might of your own. But since you can win by a lot without ever hiring a Soldier nor constructing military buildings, I've pretty sure this is a rarely profitable scheme.

Without a doubt the Cathedral track is going to have a huge impact on the score, but almost worthless to focus on early.

That said, this is a nifty game and I did enjoy playing it. But I'm wondering if it has that staleness of Risk or Monopoly in which there is one and only one dominant way to play. Then everyone does that one thing or gets left behind. This doesn't mean you won't be entertained, but I really would've liked to see more valid paths to victory.

Or maybe I'm a bit green and playtesting proves otherwise. I sincerely hope it does.
Last edited on 2008-02-23 14:52:35 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron060708
mbmbmbmbmb
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Gamer_Dog wrote:
After 4 plays and finding myself thinking about the game more than I should, I'm very impressed with how well balanced the building tracks are. That said, it would seem that much of the strategy revolves around your favored choice of building. Also, once you go after a certain building strategy, much of what you do is covering it's weaknesses.

Main strategy: Roll high ;)


I recently played this game for the first time and I've a few observations relating to this topic.

...

maybe I'm a bit green and playtesting proves otherwise. I sincerely hope it does.


I think we have the answer to your question.
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
BoardGameGeek and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.