geek
Hot Games
Agricola
Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! - Russia 1941-1942
World of Warcraft: the Adventure Game
Gaslight
Settlers of Catan, The
Keltis
Race for the Galaxy
Pandemic
Ghost Stories
Puerto Rico
Arkham Horror
Risk
Power Grid
Stone Age
Twilight Struggle
Warriors of God
Last Night on Earth: The Zombie Game
A Touch of Evil, The Supernatural Game
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
StarCraft: The Board Game
Carcassonne
Tigris & Euphrates
Descent: Journeys in the Dark
Ticket to Ride
BattleLore
War of the Ring
Caylus
Age of Empires III: The Age of Discovery
Wealth of Nations
Tribune: Primus Inter Pares
Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition
Brass
Bang!
Arkham Horror - Kingsport Horror Expansion
Arkham Horror - The Black Goat of the Woods Expansion
Glory to Rome
Acquire
El Grande
Galactic Emperor
Blackbeard
Pillars of the Earth, The
Race for the Galaxy: The Gathering Storm
Lost Cities
Néfertiti
Descent: The Road to Legend
Scrabble
Manoeuvre
Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage
Tide of Iron
Ice Flow
Rules | Subscriptions | Bookmarks | Search | Account | Moderators
Recommend
12
10 Posts
New Thread | Printer Friendly | Subscribe | Bookmark
Your Tags: Login to Add Tags | View 
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mike Compton
flag
Avatar
0607


VS.





Note: I wrote a version of this review on my blog some time ago but thought it would be good to post a version of it here on BGG.

Overview
I'm writing this review of "Colosseum" as a comparison between it and "The Princes of Florence" (hereafter abbreviated "Princes") primarily because the game play in Colosseum almost demands the comparison. Specifically, I find in comparing the two games, that "Princes" is a hands down winner on pretty much every level with the exception of intrinsic excitement in the theme and attractivness of the artwork (and even then I have some issues with how Colosseum is laid out). Because of the similarities that will be discussed, it comes as no surprise that the games share co-designer credits (Kramer). Perhaps the easiest way to summarize the comparison between these two games is to say that Colosseum is like "Princes" but "with baggage". So, let's look at why this is.

Similar Mechanics
Both games last for a set number of rounds (Colosseum: 5, "Princes": 7)

Both games have competitive auctioning as well as possibilities for purchasing items from a limited market.

Both games have a number of point scoring goals you work towards that are each unique in the things required to score the maximum points possible (Colosseum has attractions/programs - each requiring a unique tile set of different performers to achieve maximum points while "Princes" has Works with a unique requirement set for landscapes, buildings, and freedoms) - this is the strongest similarity between the two games.

You can play an attraction in Colosseum or a work in "Princes" without having all of the required items but you score less points for either.

If you have the best attraction in Colosseum or the best work in "Princes" in a round, you get three points for it (in Colosseum, those points count towards latter attractions and represent a recurring form of point scoring. With "Princes", the three points are added immediately and are not recurring.)

You may acquire items that can, for one time only, increase the total value of your attraction or your work (for Colosseum it's Medals while, for Princes, it's Bonus Cards).

The Luck Factor
This is where the games are mostly different. With Colosseum, there is the "Emperor" as well as various "Senators" who may or may not attend your attractions depending on luck manifested through rolling dice. Also, with Colosseum, there is luck involved in what tile sets come out for auctioning. With "Princes", the luck in the game is in the drawing of cards but that luck is mitigated by drawing 5 cards at a time and then picking the one out that you want.

The Auctioning System
The auctioning system is more complicated and less satisfying in Colosseum than it is in "Princes" for several reasons. First, you are not bidding on a single item or tile. Instead, you are bidding on sets of tiles (three tiles per set). At first, this might seem like an improvement over "Princes" (much like how the tension in the game "RA" comes from having to decide how worth it it is to you to bid on something with a mixed set of variables). However, the fact that tiles can replenish after a bid is taken makes the auctioning less interesting and more random. Further, the tiles only replenish and other players cannot bid again after they have won a bid until the initial bidding player finally takes a bid. Thus, the auctioning can continue in Colosseum such that a person could win two or more auctions in a given round.

The auctioning system in "Princes" is less complicated and more tense because people are fighting over more similar things and, once they have won a bid, they are out of the bidding. This means that the decision to raise a bid and potentially take it carries a lot more weight in "Princes". Also, in Colosseum, it's too easy (even with 5 players) for everyone to be going after different things (which dramatically reduces the tension).

Attractions vs. Works
With Colosseum, you can only play one attraction per turn. You may, however, play that same attraction over and over again over several turns if you choose to - which lessens the tension of playing it. With Princes, you can play up to two works in a given turn. However, once you've played your work, you can't play it again unless someone happens to recruit it from you and you then recruit it back. Thus, you have to decide if you want to play your work early and take less points for it or play it later and get more points for it - a decision with decidely more tension involved than what Colosseum offers.

Player Interactivity
The one main criticism of "Princes" is that the player interactivity is low. Colosseum does have more player interactivity. You can make trades and exchanges with other players involving tiles and money. There is also some indirect interactivity in that how the players move the senators and the emperor on their turn can impact the other players' abilities to score more points on their respective turns. However, in my opinion, the movement of the senators is not that interesting of a decision making process.

The main source of interaction in Princes is the auction and the limited market (not having enough of everything for every player to acquire one). So, what other players do on their turns with respect to purchasing items in "Princes" is more interesting than what other players are doing on their turns in Colosseum. Because everyone's tiles are out in the open in Colosseum, you can reasonably deduce what attractions they are most likely gunning for. With "Princes", by having less factors at play with respect to scoring points for your works compared to the many factors at play in scoring points with attractions, there is actually more intrigue because you honestly can't always figure out exactly what the other players will be buying next. There are simply more possibilities that might be reasonable for them as the smaller number of factors at play have a wider range of possible solutions. Also, in "Princes", the works that other players have in their hands are secret and each player's money supply can be kept secret - both of which are aspects that add more intrigue to the game when compared to the open resources of Colosseum.

Components
Ok, the artwork on Colosseum is typical Days of Wonder: very colorful and attractive. However, the functionality could have been slightly improved. The auctioning mechanism of how turn order flows and who can bid and who can't is quite clunky in my opinion. Some additional components could have easily helped make this mechanic a lot smoother by helping the players to keep track of things. Also, there are various tiles that award bonuses if you have the most of them but not all of the tiles are eligible for this bonus. Just like how RA incorporates the use of a symbol to remind the players of which tiles stay and which tiles are discarded at the end of a round, it's my position that Days of Wonder could have included symbols on the tiles to indicate which ones are eligible for a majority bonus and which ones aren't. This small addition won't make much of a difference to experienced players but it would help out a lot in trying to teach new people how to play the game.

Conclusion
The bottom line here is that, in my opinion, if you are looking for the kinds of decisions and intrigue offered by Colosseum, then "The Princes of Florence" offers many of the same kinds of decisions but does so to a greater, more fulfilling degree and in a more streamlined, less complicated fashion. Colosseum has more pieces involved in it's structure, but "The Princes of Florence" has stronger depth. Perhaps the easiest way to say it is that, sometimes in life, "less is more".
John Hilla
flag
Avatar
0708
Thanks for this write-up ... I really like Colosseum but haven't played (I know, I know) Princes of Florence, so I'm taking all of this to mean that I might like Princes even more than Colosseum. Sounds good to me!
Mike Compton
flag
Avatar
0607
tonguepaste wrote:
... I really like Colosseum but haven't played (I know, I know) Princes of Florence, so I'm taking all of this to mean that I might like Princes even more than Colosseum. Sounds good to me!


Possibly, but not necesssarily. :)

The reason why I say this is because, even though I decidedly come down in favor of Princes in this comparison, most of my points were about mechanics. So, I would say that it depends on your tastes. If you prefer theme over mechanics, then Colosseum might be a winner for you. I can see how the theme of Princes might be off-putting to some such that, in spite of Princes being, IMO, a deeper and more streamlined game, some might find Colosseum more fun to play due to the imaginitive engagement of the theme in spite of the other drawbacks I personally find in the game.

So, it depends. :)

Since I find many of the decisions presented by the two games to be somewhat similar in form but decidedly better in depth on the side of "Princes", the theme of Colosseum is simply not enough for me to choose it over Princes if given a choice between the two.
Last edited on 2007-12-06 13:26:42 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
brian
flag
Avatar
0607
compman wrote:

The Auctioning System
The auctioning system is more complicated and less satisfying in Colosseum than it is in "Princes" for several reasons. First, you are not bidding on a single item or tile. Instead, you are bidding on sets of tiles (three tiles per set). At first, this might seem like an improvement over "Princes" (much like how the tension in the game "RA" comes from having to decide how worth it it is to you to bid on something with a mixed set of variables). However, the fact that tiles can replenish after a bid is taken makes the auctioning less interesting and more random. Further, the tiles only replenish and other players cannot bid again after they have won a bid until the initial bidding player finally takes a bid. Thus, the auctioning can continue in Colosseum such that a person could win two or more auctions in a given round.

Unless you were playing the variant, I think you have this aspect wrong.

Once you win a bid, in the original game, you are out for the rest of the round. So it is impossible to win multiple auctions. An official variant was released later that allowed for someone to bid multiple times.

The tiles only replensish once the active player passes/wins.
David Brain
flag
Game Designer
Avatar
050607
Excellent comparison, but I think it ignores the key aspect: fundamentally, Colosseum is a more accessible game than Princes. I know that I can play Princes with one of my regular gaming groups, where the depth and sheer elegance of the mechanics is appreciated. But I am going to be able to play Colosseum with my family this Christmas and know that it will work with them as well, which Princes never would. That's a crucial factor. It doesn't make Colosseum the better game - it certainly isn't! - but it's far more accessible (not to mention much more forgiving - even with fewer rounds you are much less likely to find yourself out of the game from the start.)

I also think that although the thematic element is stronger in Princes, the potential for role-playing is fantastic in Colosseum: games where you are competing to hire Russell Crowe or Champion the Wonder Horse are going to be much more social (and rowdier!) than the cerebral calculation of Princes.
Matthew Smith
flag
Avatar
060708
compman wrote:
Attractions vs. Works
With Colosseum, you can only play one attraction per turn. You may, however, play that same attraction over and over again over several turns if you choose to - which lessens the tension of playing it.

If you put on a show that you've already put on, it actually costs you the five points you would have received from leaving that show face down. Since you're trying to increase the overall score of a single show, it's better to put on a new show if you can. The "retread" option should only be used if you have no other choice and just need the income.

compman wrote:
Player Interactivity
Because everyone's tiles are out in the open in Colosseum, you can reasonably deduce what attractions they are most likely gunning for.

Many shows have overlapping components. So, the "big" show that you're aiming for in turn 4 or 5 will likely require more components than you have in turns 1-3(4). Early in the game, it's likely there will be several shows your components could be used for, making it hard for your opponents to know exactly which show you eventually want to buy/produce.

Oh, and don't discount the decisions regarding moving the nobles. From the very first turn you need to be looking ahead to turn 4 or 5, where you will likely be producing your biggest show. It's never too early to start maneuvering those nobles. Obviously the luck of the dice play a role, but you just have to get them close to your arena so you can use the dice/medals to move them in for your big show.
Surya Van Lierde is pure Eurosnoot and proud of it!
flag
Avatar
compman wrote:
The bottom line here is that, in my opinion, if you are looking for the kinds of decisions and intrigue offered by Colosseum, then "The Princes of Florence" offers many of the same kinds of decisions but does so to a greater, more fulfilling degree and in a more streamlined, less complicated fashion. Colosseum has more pieces involved in it's structure, but "The Princes of Florence" has stronger depth. Perhaps the easiest way to say it is that, sometimes in life, "less is more".

While I certainly agree with this, I don't think that means that there is no reason to play Colosseum, as it does give a similar experience, but it is different. So for people looking for something similar to Princes, I think it's a decent option.
Philippe Keppens
flag
compman wrote:


Also, there are various tiles that award bonuses if you have the most of them but not all of the tiles are eligible for this bonus. Just like how RA incorporates the use of a symbol to remind the players of which tiles stay and which tiles are discarded at the end of a round, it's my position that Days of Wonder could have included symbols on the tiles to indicate which ones are eligible for a majority bonus and which ones aren't. This small addition won't make much of a difference to experienced players but it would help out a lot in trying to teach new people how to play the game.


In fact it's quite easy: you can get a star performer for each animal or human, not for objects like chariots and scenery.
stephen mcleod
flag
Played both- own PoF.

PoF is like a dry red whine.
Colloseum was like a sweet white wine.

Both are fun.

But we never laugh during PoF.
We laugh constantly during C.

The innate humor of putting on a horse show with no horses (and the comments about coconuts).

Or putting on a show with musicians, poets, and lions--- but no cages.

Comments about "has been retreads" being why the emperor is moving on.

And the since the points do not "add", you get a growing sense that the shows really are more and more spectacular. You remember putting on your first 25 point show and then you see a 79 point show and go Wow!

The theme just kills in terms of fun atmosphere.
Jack
flag
0708
Scurra wrote:
Excellent comparison, but I think it ignores the key aspect: fundamentally, Colosseum is a more accessible game than Princes. I know that I can play Princes with one of my regular gaming groups, where the depth and sheer elegance of the mechanics is appreciated. But I am going to be able to play Colosseum with my family this Christmas and know that it will work with them as well, which Princes never would. That's a crucial factor. It doesn't make Colosseum the better game - it certainly isn't! - but it's far more accessible (not to mention much more forgiving - even with fewer rounds you are much less likely to find yourself out of the game from the start.)

I also think that although the thematic element is stronger in Princes, the potential for role-playing is fantastic in Colosseum: games where you are competing to hire Russell Crowe or Champion the Wonder Horse are going to be much more social (and rowdier!) than the cerebral calculation of Princes.


Just to throw in another perspective: I played Princes for the first time with a table of 3 non-gamers. No-one new how to play. I was the only one with experience with Eurogames, or who knew the term "eurogame" for that matter. We had a BLAST. All of the non-gamers wanted to play again, and were talking of buying a copy for their house (they all live together).

I should note, however, that I'm almost always the designated "teacher" 95% of the time I play any boardgame. There's almost always someone new present; in the above example, it was an entirely new group. I have a ridiculously atypical success introducing heavy Euros to nongamers, and honestly, I sometimes wonder if that's partly because I don't refer to them as "heavy Euros" in advance. One time, on a lark, a gamer friend and I invited two oblivious non-gamers over for caylus..., and then we proceeded to lose (3rd and 4th place). They thought the game was really neat, no "Oh my God / never again / I feel like I just got kicked in the head" reactions.

So, granting that Colosseum might be great fun (I haven't played), I think PoF is an easy sell.

Also, thanks to the OP for the comparison. I'll probably stick with Princes for a while now before trying Colosseum.
Last edited on 2008-04-12 21:48:22 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
BoardGameGeek and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.