|
Richard Berg
United States
South Carolina
|
This time I thought I'd venture into an area I'm more familiar with, histo-gaming . . . this one a game still popular after all these years. Remember, this review is about 10 years old . . . not that my opinion has changed. WE, THE ELEPHANTS HANNIBAL by MARK SIMONITCH from THE AVALON HILL GAME CORP. 22” x 33” mounted map; 232 counters of various shapes; 64 Strategy Cards, 48 Battle cards; 14 Plastic stands; Rules Book. Boxed, from TAHGC, Baltimore. $39? Reviewed by RICHARD H. BERG AH’s venture to cash in on the emergence of ancients as a viable sales field , Hannibal, has two things going for it, for me, at least, even before I started rolling dice: it’s based on a very clever Mark Herman system, and it put everything into the game that I would have, if not exactly in the form in which it shows up. And, with some telling reservations, Hannibal pretty much follows through on its promise. As most of you are aware, Hannibal is an adaptation of AH’s critical, if not (immediately) financial, success, We the People. The WePeo system managed to combine ease and speed of play with a sophistication that not only did one not find in more ambitious designs, but one which put a premium on player decision-making. It proved to be an exceptional tournament game, too, even as it also proved to have some flaws that stopped a fairly vocal minority from adopting it as a “classic”, mostly because of what basis on which the player was making those decisions. The way Hannibal plays, and the system it uses, also brings up a somewhat larger question, one that causes a rather healthy debate to spring up almost instantly: why do we play historically-oriented games? How accurate must they be, and, perhaps even more important, what is “accuracy”? And to have fun do we really need all that historicity? The answer, unfortunately - or fortunately, depending on what side of the line you’re standing on - is that there is no set answer. Each of us does this for his/her own personal reasons, and the choices run the gamut from those of us who will play anything, as long as it is done well, through the folks who stick to one series, all the way to the somewhat anal fellow I met at last year’s Avaloncon who said he only played Afrika Korps. Hope he’s good at it. Reason I bring this all up is that Hannibal, like WePeo, is the type of game that elicits some deep-seated responses from the grognard section, which, at last look, is pretty much the last section left hereabouts. That’s because it manages to work so well on so many levels, but far less so on others. Problem is, some of those “others” are where people start drawing those imaginary lines. No one ever really complains about AH production values, though, although many carp at some of the details. The same applies here, as, like virtually all AHers, Hannibal is most user friendly. The box cover is striking in the manner for which it was intended: to get the consumer to look at it. Kurt Miller seems to have found a “style”, if this, and the recent Machiavelli, are any indication. Big, dominant head shots with detail in the background. Here we get a rather Hollywoodish, heroesque looking Hannibal - pre-optical problems - with some rather craggy Alps looming in the background. In some ways it looks like second prize in the Rodger MacGowan look-alike contest, but it works for me. So do the counters, which are colorful and useful, and the excellent cards. OK, so we can ignore the fact that all of the Carthaginian Leaders are the same guy with different colored tunics, and I’m not sure why a Carthaginian leader should be iconned with a spear and a shield. Maybe we can lay it down to the fact that the entire Carthaginian photo gallery went down as soon as the Romans took the delenda est stuff to heart. I’m rather less happy with the striking map, though. Again, very user friendly, although once you put all the Political markers down you can’t see which town is which. Not that it’s too important. But, while the basic map is OK - excluding the god awful featherfluff that passes for the Alps - it appears that Kurt M. then set about doodling all over every square inch that wasn’t covered with information. We get faded sketches of hands (and dreadful hands at that), helmets, swords, spears, an elephant… even a galley battle. Even worse is the faux marble look of the Mediterranean, which looks less like a Sea than a kitchen table top from a third rate condo. Nothing that will stop you from enjoying the game, but one does wish that Kurt would show a little more restraint. I also note a design decision reflected on the map with which I do not agree, and which could have used some explanation. There are no Apennines. Not that I think that, on this scale, they were that great an impediment to movement “rates”. However, because they are not there, it is possible for an army in Samnium to intercept another in Etruria, across the mountains. Never happened. Never could. Just one of the historical oddities that float through this game like bodies in a bay. The rules are clear and, except for some typos that should bother no one, apparently errata free, which should please some of my AoL compatriots to no end. Well, none that WE could find during play. The historical summary does contain a glaring gaffe, though. It states that Hannibal lost all but 3 elephants in crossing the Alps. Not true. His elephant corps was virtually intact for The Trebbia; where he lost them was in passing through the swamps in Etruria, around Pisa (which is where Hannibal also lost his eye to an ophthalmic condition). Those of you who have played We the People will feel pretty much at home with the way Hannibal plays, except that someone seems to have moved all the furniture around. The system essentially uses Strategy Cards to determine what a player can do each turn, either by using the cards to move armies or as events. Movement is geared to the Leader strategy ratings, in which the better guys have a greater chance of moving. There are, though, 2 Major campaign and 4 Minor Campaign cards, the use of which allows a player to use virtually anyone, and use them in combination. These are “killer” cards, and an unequal distribution of them during the game will pretty much seal the issue, as we soon shall see. When combat does occur - and it does not occur that frequently, a rather felicitous aspect of the design - there is no CRT. Instead, players get a number of Battle Cards - Flank Left, Probe, Frontal Assault, Frontal Nudity (Scots and Gauls only) - equal to the number of Combat Points plus Leader rating (and a few other items). Attacker plays a card; if Defender can’t match it with the same card, he loses. It’s that simple. I did not like this idea in WePeo, and I still don’t like it. It reduces battle to a game of Go Fish, in which the outcome depends more on the mathematical probabilities of having one more card of one type than anything else. Yes, the more cards you have in your hand the better chances you’ll have. But it still comes down to a guessing game. Fun? Perhaps. Evocative of the era, or any other era? I think not. As you can see, except for some tangential rules that provide much color, the game is quite accessible, easy to play and understand, and rather fast moving … although it does take about twice as long as WePeo. On the other hand, because of the general strategic situation, there is far more for each player to do here than in the colonies, and that provides Hannibal with its strongest drawing card: it forces players to make difficult decisions almost each play of the cards, and that creates a level of play tension rarely found in other games. That many of those decisions are ones the original participants never would have had available is not the issue. The mechanic works, and it works quite well. What also works well is how neo-designer Mark Simonitch has folded in much of the feel of the era. The Carthaginian use of Celtic and other allies is nicely represented, so much so that Southwestern Hispania becomes an alluring target for Rome, mostly because that’s where Boy Barca gets half his troops. The Roman consular system is also handled nicely, if somewhat generically (and rather ahistorically, to be sure), the mechanics for naval movement, although they do ignore the dangers of long voyages, nicely reflect Roman Naval Superiority, and the problems, both Gallic and Attrition-wise, in crossing the Alps reflect reality quite well. On the other hand, I was most curious as to why both players were saddled with a 10 point movement limitation, 10 combat points representing a Consular army of some 20,000 men. Rome fielded armies far in excess of that size throughout the war, and Hannibal crossed the Alps with twice that many men (at least). This rather ahistorically limits any Roman attack to using only one Consular Army; at Cannae they attacked with at least two, and probably four (and a fat lot of good it did them). Even at Zama, Africanus had a Consular Army reinforced by an additional 17,000 men. One assumes that this sort of restriction is in place entirely for “game” purposes, so that the Romans can’t gang up on the Carthos with pure numbers … which they tried to do but with remarkably little success. I don’t entirely disagree with this design decision, and by using a Major Campaign Card you can manage to roll two, or even three, Consular armies against a Carthaginian army. But they come in waves of separate battles, a rather unusual approach to reality. What I do disagree with, though, are the rather high ratings (overall) for the Roman consuls. Even if one excludes Scipio Africanus (who doesn’t enter play until Turn 6 - there are 9 turns, with some artificial, but necessary, telescoping of time going on here), there isn’t a truly bad consul in the lot … and we do know that the Romans fielded some pretty inept politicos for far too long in this war. Gaius Nero and the infamous Varro both have the same strategy ratings as Hannibal, the reasons for which are not only not given (or apparent) but stretch credulity so far out of the envelope that they get left in the mailbox. Fabius, he of the “Fabian” strategy of avoiding combat, has the highest Battle Rating of all Roman leaders other than Africanus and Marcellus (who does get his due here). The result of all this - and one can always quibble about such ratings, which is why God invented the Internet - is that the Romans are just adept enough so as to make a Carthaginian victory a rather remote possibility. And this apparent lack of balance - the official AH position is that repeated plays, about 6-8 repeated plays was the number they offered, will ultimately reveal the strategies necessary for Carthaginian victory - could be the ultimate drawback in what was obviously intended as a game, not a history lesson. Add to that the fact that most Roman players even vaguely familiar with the situation will quickly realize that adopting the strategy that Rome implemented after about 5 years of getting their heads bashed in by Hannibal - run away at home while denying Spain to Carthaginian use as quickly as possible - is, the cards willing, an almost sure winner. I say “the cards willing”, because, more than any other mechanic, including player planning, the Strategy cards delineate the course of the game. If this doesn’t bother you - and it can be fun - it won’t be a hindrance. For those of you easily frustrated by not being able to do anything of what you’d like for turns on end, you will be about as happy as Hasdrubal after The Metaurus. And that’s just about what happened in the first (of two) games we played. For the first three turns very little happened, as no one got the type of cards that would allow major campaigning. Hannibal rattled around Italy, picking off one or two towns, the Romans launched an abortive invasion of Africa - it looks far easier than it turned out to be - and Publius Scipio did his police action rounding up the usual Celtic suspects in Spain. In the 4th turn, the action picked up (we had yet to have a battle). The Carthaginians sent Hasdrubal back to Africa to wipe up Paulus and his consular army, which they did almost without blinking, Hannibal took Syracuse and then laid siege to Tarentum (which didn’t pan out, thanks to a nice play of the cards by the Roman), and P. Scipio got recalled from his Spanish holiday to join Marcellus in Italy. Thus, at the start of the 5th turn, Hannibal, whose capabilities and Battle rating of ‘4’, make him a formidable foe regardless of army size limitations, is sitting in Terventum - a location, by the way, I have much difficulty locating in either Polybius, Livy or any maps I have, unless Mark means Teruentum, a hamlet of truly minor import - with Roman armies in both Rome and Neapolis. Hannibal has the opportunity to try to either ravage the south, or pick off the Romans one army at a time. Unfortunately for him, Fate, in the form of Cards Dealt, is about to give him a “hot stick in the eye”, which, all things considered, is not what Hannibal wants. The Roman Player fans through his cards for the turn, upon which his eyes grow larger than those of a squid with goiter. He has both Major Campaigns cards and one Minor! The initial Major allows him to grab the turn’s initiative from the Carthaginian. His first move is to trap Hasdrubal in Lilybaeum and drive him into the sea, destroying that army. He then launches Marcellus at Hannibal, an attack which Hannibal manages to fend off with minimal loss. But, given the Roman card situation, even minimal losses are going to be a tragedy if the Roman can keep those Campaign cards coming. Doesn’t make much difference, though, as the follow-up attack by Publius Scipio, who is even outnumbered by Hannibal (a rarity indeed) reveals the innate weakness of the Battle Card system. Again, the Romans get a glaucoma-like eye-popper: out of 9 Battle cards, 4 are Double Envelopment and two are Reserves (which can be used as Double Envelopment). As there are only 6 DE’s in the deck, the conclusion is foregone. Even worse, because the Romans win with a DE Card, the Carthaginians have to add two to their Retreat loss DR; in doing so they eliminate the entire army, thus ending the game. Now, it’s not that this will play out will happen often, or even sometimes. (Those of you who did not snore through Statistics class can figure out the odds of getting two specific cards out of a deck of 64 in any one deal of ‘8’.) It’s that the cards created the opportunity, not the player. The player is not acting, he is reacting to what fate has dealt him. It is as if each player’s HQ is located at the Oracle of Delphi. Whether this is any different from rolling a ‘1’ on an old AH 3-1er is a question of perception. But the reality of such perception is that far too much is left to random chance. The Control Freaks are going to need a whole bunch of Peptid AC to get through this one. Oddly enough, and despite all of my cavils, we did have a lot of fun … and maybe that’s the bottom line here. Neither Simonitch nor AH is trying to get us an MA in Roman History; they’re trying to sell games and give some people an afternoon of fun. To that end, they have succeeded marvelously. Of course, I won both games as the Roman, so perhaps that clouds my view of fun. Then again,, any game I can win twice in a row must have built-in problems. CAPSULE COMMENTS Graphic Presentation: Very good, very user friendly, but far too much busy doodling visible. Playability: Excellent. Accessible and fast-moving. Forget solitaire. Replayability: A major plus, as no two games will ever play the same. Historicity: A mixed bag. Some good era evocation marred by some unusual restrictions. Creativity: Herman’s original system has been tweaked but not harmed. Wristage: Almost none. Comparison: Easily the most playable of the Hannibal games out there, although that’s a rather dismal lot. For WePeo fans, this one has more space, more maneuver. Overall: Lot’s of fun, but some of you are going to be mighty frustrated by either the system’s reliance on chance or its ahistorical restrictions.
|
Niko Ruf
Germany Kaiserslautern
|
Thanks for the review. I only recently got the Hannibal reprint from Valley Games, and I must say the game has aged incredibly well (or not at all). There is really no need to update the review and account for supposedly "better" games that have come since. BROG wrote: That many of those decisions are ones the original participants never would have had available is not the issue. Still, it is a point many people who dislike CDGs can't get over. "Do I activate Hanno or give the Roman army in Spain a bad case of dysentery?" This is a meaningful decision in game terms, but it doesn't exactly put you in Hannibal's place. I can live with it, because the cards are such a great way of including a lot of events and "special effects " without cluttering up the rules. I even like the battlecard system. Not because it is a good simulation of ancient battles (it isn't), but because of its psychological dimension. You must find out how much your opponent is willing to risk without losing too much yourself. In the context of attrition and retreat losses, it is essentially a game of chicken. In that regard, it might even serve to capture the tension experienced by the commanders. Fellow geek charlesf has written an excellent analysis of the system here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/221749
|
Daren Jackson
United States Laramie Wyoming
|
I think the limitations and "personalities" of the Roman leaders are built into their ratings and "special abilities" quite well. Varro, for instance, is quick to start a fight (activates with play of any card) and totally inept when he does so (adding only a single battle card to the Roman hand).
But it's the strategy ratings that I really want to focus on. Multiple Roman commanders are slugs, activating only on '3' ops cards. "You mean I have to burn a 3 ops just to move his lazy ass?" Few things are as painful as (late in the game, of course, just when you really need a mobile force to chase Hannibal out of southern Italy for the last time)...wait, what was I typing? Oh yeah...few things are as painful as drawing two new consuls, both with strategy ratings of '3'...and looking in your hand to see nary a 3 ops card in sight. Slugs, I tells ya...
|
Niko Ruf
Germany Kaiserslautern
|
dcjackso wrote: (late in the game, of course, just when you really need a mobile force to chase Hannibal out of southern Italy for the last time) That mobile force is Scipio "Africanus". I wonder in how many games he actually gets to earn his moniker.
|
Richard Young
Canada Victoria BC
|
This review stands up better, but could I be saying that simply because I agree with nearly every word? The game remains one of the best two player CDGs of the series and looks even better with the Valley Games reprint.
I'm no fan of the battle card system and you've identified a couple of the reasons why, but it was a slight improvement over the similar system introduced in WtP and is tolerable considering the excellence of everything else.
As to historicity, again I agree with your observations but I wasn't offended by the artistic licence Mark exercised since the decisions he made resulted in a much better game than it would have been if he had tried to be more historically accurate. That goes for the event card choices, size cap on armies, leader qualities and map design. My experience has been that designs which try to model history too closely often end up being very poor games.
The signal improvement Mark Simonitch made over Mark Herman's groundbreaking We The People was to combine Ops and Events on the same card forcing the player to add another layer to his already heavy decision making load. Few CDGs have done better since...
|
Charles Féaux de la Croix
Germany Berlin
|
BROG wrote: There are no Apennines. Not that I think that, on this scale, they were that great an impediment to movement “rates”. However, because they are not there, it is possible for an army in Samnium to intercept another in Etruria, across the mountains. Never happened. Never could. Just one of the historical oddities that float through this game like bodies in a bay.
I think the Roman manoeuvres prior to the Battle of Metaurus could easily be regarded as such an interception. Particularly at this scale. Quote: When combat does occur - and it does not occur that frequently, a rather felicitous aspect of the design - there is no CRT. Instead, players get a number of Battle Cards ... I did not like this idea in WePeo, and I still don’t like it. It reduces battle to a game of Go Fish, in which the outcome depends more on the mathematical probabilities of having one more card of one type than anything else.
As I think my already mentioned battle tactics article shows, there's more to battles than readily meets the eye. An understandable misconception after only a few Those who think it's merely "a game of Go Fish" will perform considerably worse than those with a sophisticated understanding of the dynamics involved. Quote: Yes, the more cards you have in your hand the better chances you’ll have. But it still comes down to a guessing game. Fun? Perhaps. Evocative of the era, or any other era? I think not. I assert the battle mechanism does a very good job in historical terms. Quote: That many of those decisions are ones the original participants never would have had available is not the issue. The mechanic works, and it works quite well. Those being? I cannot think of anything which feels gamey and ahistorical. Unlike say in Pax Romana, where the little degree of naval-land combat interaction struck me as odd for the portrayed period. Quote: The Roman consular system is also handled nicely, if somewhat generically (and rather ahistorically, to be sure), Well, it's quite abstract, but I don't regard it as being in any manner ahistorical. Though the additional variant generals are a welcome addition in that they create a greater leader pool. I'd be curious about why this aspect's supposed to be ahistorical (i.e. historically implausible). Quote: the mechanics for naval movement, although they do ignore the dangers of long voyages, nicely reflect Roman Naval Superiority, Well, a couple of cards represent the dangers at sea the Roman navy might encounter. So it's present in the game. I find the abstract manner in which Roman naval superiority is presented works very well. Quote: On the other hand, I was most curious as to why both players were saddled with a 10 point movement limitation, 10 combat points representing a Consular army of some 20,000 men. True, some fudging of CU strengths is going on. Quote: I don’t entirely disagree with this design decision, and by using a Major Campaign Card you can manage to roll two, or even three, Consular armies against a Carthaginian army. But they come in waves of separate battles, a rather unusual approach to reality. Yup. Quote: What I do disagree with, though, are the rather high ratings (overall) for the Roman consuls. Even if one excludes Scipio Africanus (who doesn’t enter play until Turn 6 - there are 9 turns, with some artificial, but necessary, telescoping of time going on here), there isn’t a truly bad consul in the lot … and we do know that the Romans fielded some pretty inept politicos for far too long in this war. Gaius Nero and the infamous Varro both have the same strategy ratings as Hannibal, the reasons for which are not only not given (or apparent) but stretch credulity so far out of the envelope that they get left in the mailbox.
Well, they were aggressive generals in the field. That's what the strategy rating reflects. Varro can do stuff, but he's a liability once the battle is joined. Seems reasonable enough. Quote: The result of all this - and one can always quibble about such ratings, which is why God invented the Internet - is that the Romans are just adept enough so as to make a Carthaginian victory a rather remote possibility. And this apparent lack of balance - the official AH position is that repeated plays, about 6-8 repeated plays was the number they offered, will ultimately reveal the strategies necessary for Carthaginian victory - could be the ultimate drawback in what was obviously intended as a game, not a history lesson. Well, I don't recall the Carthaginians' cause being hopeless in my very first games. No issue here. I don't see why a game can be faulted when a particular gaming group is slower picking up how to play one side well. I'd say the 2nd edition rules give the Romans something like a 55-45 edge and is thus reasonably well balanced. Quote: Add to that the fact that most Roman players even vaguely familiar with the situation will quickly realize that adopting the strategy that Rome implemented after about 5 years of getting their heads bashed in by Hannibal - run away at home while denying Spain to Carthaginian use as quickly as possible - is, the cards willing, an almost sure winner.
I'd say that's a mischaracterisation of Rome's strategy. After the post-Cannae crisis was over, they were happy to offer the Carthaginians battle very much on THEIR terms and - since Hannibal couldn't afford to join battle at such a severe disadvantage - they were able to progressively reduce his freedom of action. The Fabian strategy was similar to the Union's Anaconda Plan during the ACW and quite unlike say Lettow-Vorbeck's hit-and-run warfare in the later stages of his WWI campaign. Quote: I say “the cards willing”, because, more than any other mechanic, including player planning, the Strategy cards delineate the course of the game. If this doesn’t bother you - and it can be fun - it won’t be a hindrance. For those of you easily frustrated by not being able to do anything of what you’d like for turns on end, you will be about as happy as Hasdrubal after The Metaurus. And that’s just about what happened in the first (of two) games we played.
Historical leaders didn't have godlike powers and the limits a less than ideal hand imposes reflect that. Players need to deal with adversity just as historical commanders had to. Quote: Doesn’t make much difference, though, as the follow-up attack by Publius Scipio, who is even outnumbered by Hannibal (a rarity indeed) reveals the innate weakness of the Battle Card system. Again, the Romans get a glaucoma-like eye-popper: out of 9 Battle cards, 4 are Double Envelopment and two are Reserves (which can be used as Double Envelopment). As there are only 6 DE’s in the deck, the conclusion is foregone. Even worse, because the Romans win with a DE Card, the Carthaginians have to add two to their Retreat loss DR; in doing so they eliminate the entire army, thus ending the game. This is of course a game using the old first edition rules. Looks like P. Scipio did an outstanding job winning back the initiative. It's tough winning a DE battle against Hannibal with a mediocre general considering the initiative issues and Hannibal's probe ability. In any case, the second edition allowing Carthage to soldier on without Hannibal is a massive improvement. Quote: It’s that the cards created the opportunity, not the player. The player is not acting, he is reacting to what fate has dealt him. It is as if each player’s HQ is located at the Oracle of Delphi. Whether this is any different from rolling a ‘1’ on an old AH 3-1er is a question of perception. But the reality of such perception is that far too much is left to random chance. I don't see why. The battle cards give players a degree of control a CRT wouldn't allow. Quote: Graphic Presentation: Very good, very user friendly, but far too much busy doodling visible.
I also find the manner in which the Med is painted a little odd, but I think the map's quite pleasant. That said, I prefer my own (not entirely finished) Hannibal map design you can find on BGG. But then, I designed it to suit my own taste... Quote: Playability: Excellent. Accessible and fast-moving. Forget solitaire.
It think most two-player CDGs work reasonably well as solitaires. As far as solitaire playing goes. Though I generally do so only to study a game's dynamics. Still fun though. Haven't done it in ages though. Quote: Replayability: A major plus, as no two games will ever play the same.
One of the reasons I'm always coming back for more. More variability than say Twilight Struggle. Quote: Historicity: A mixed bag. Some good era evocation marred by some unusual restrictions.
I don't share some of the concerns you have. All depends on what one can rationalise in historical terms, I dare say. Quote: Creativity: Herman’s original system has been tweaked but not harmed.
A MASSIVE MASSIVE improvement over WtP, in my book. Quite frankly, I find WtP unpolished, obsolete, redundant and I wouldn't ever want to play WtP when a copy of Hannibal's available.
|
Charles Féaux de la Croix
Germany Berlin
|
Niko Ruf wrote: That mobile force is Scipio "Africanus". I wonder in how many games he actually gets to earn his moniker.
Well, not many. Largely due to the game rarely producing as decisive a Carthaginian defeat as was historically the care. After all, the Romans conquered the Barcid Empire in Spain and pretty much all of Africa. Indeed, I think the Carthaginians surrendered because they couldn't remove the mandated number of PC markers during the victory phase. It Africanus does is military agnomen even half-justice (i.e. conquers say two African provinces), then it's extremely unlikely Carthage will have won nonetheless.
|
Severus Snape
Canada
Ontario
|
Quote: I did not like this idea in WePeo, and I still don’t like it. It reduces battle to a game of Go Fish, in which the outcome depends more on the mathematical probabilities of having one more card of one type than anything else. Yes, the more cards you have in your hand the better chances you’ll have. But it still comes down to a guessing game. Fun? Perhaps. Evocative of the era, or any other era? I think not. Richard, seeing these reviews back in print, with you to answer questions and engage in discussion, is a bit like seeing the dead come back to life. I mean this in a good way. Could you please explain the comparison to "Go Fish" (whether or not you used hyperbole), and could you elaborate on what combat systems are more "evocative of the era"?
|
Severus Snape
Canada
Ontario
|
Quote: I think the Roman manoeuvres prior to the Battle of Metaurus could easily be regarded as such an interception. Particularly at this scale. Really? What history books would justify this? Tell me and I will look it up. Quote: As I think my already mentioned battle tactics article shows, there's more to battles than readily meets the eye.
An understandable misconception after only a few
Those who think it's merely "a game of Go Fish" will perform considerably worse than those with a sophisticated understanding of the dynamics involved. Translation: the emperor is still naked. Always was. Always will be. Quote: I assert the battle mechanism does a very good job in historical terms. Want to go back to the history books and cite the historical examples? Quote: Quote: That many of those decisions are ones the original participants never would have had available is not the issue. The mechanic works, and it works quite well.
Those being? I cannot think of anything which feels gamey and ahistorical. Unlike say in Pax Romana, where the little degree of naval-land combat interaction struck me as odd for the portrayed period. Explanation and examples from "both" sides would help clarify matters. Otherwise, we are all just tossing opinons around with nothing to back them up. Quote: Well, it's quite abstract, but I don't regard it as being in any manner ahistorical. Though the additional variant generals are a welcome addition in that they create a greater leader pool.
I'd be curious about why this aspect's supposed to be ahistorical (i.e. historically implausible). If the variants are not in the game, most of us cannot use them. If the leader was killed, his "resurrection" is, ahem, rather ahistorical. The selection of leaders was rather lazy, and probably reflected a design and cost limitation. Quote: I'd say that's a mischaracterisation of Rome's strategy. After the post-Cannae crisis was over, they were happy to offer the Carthaginians battle very much on THEIR terms and - since Hannibal couldn't afford to join battle at such a severe disadvantage - they were able to progressively reduce his freedom of action. The Fabian strategy was similar to the Union's Anaconda Plan during the ACW . . . . I disagree, and the comparison with the ACW is beyond silly. Time for you to pull out those history books again. And which ACW books will demonstrate that the Union's Anaconda Plan was Fabian like in strategy? There is more to say, but reality is knocking at the door once more.
|
Richard Berg
United States
South Carolina
|
> "Could you please explain the comparison to "Go Fish" (whether or not you used hyperbole)..."
Been some time, but in GO FISH you keep pulling cards until you have 4 of the same (I think, been 60 years since I did this) . . . in han, having more of one kind provides you with a win in battkle.
> "...and could you elaborate on what combat systems are more "evocative of the era"?"
The Battle Card system in HANNIBAL is evocative of nothing. Mark designed the system because his wife wouldn't help him playtest the game if she had to look at charts and she liked cards. E.g,m to allow Romans a "double Envelopment' card goes against the very rigid Roman tactical manual of the day (until Scipio started to change it). It would be similar to giving the French a "blitzkrieg" card in a 1940 game.
You want era=evocative combat systems? Try my Great Battles of History series, which is, admittedly, at a much different scale . . . but at the same scale try out my "Ancient World" combat system. THAT is an era-evocative - and era=definitive - combat system. (Not the only one, to be sure . . . ) All in one dieroll, too.
RHB
|
Richard Young
Canada Victoria BC
|
The Go Fish! comparison has been often observed to elicit foam and froth from those that think the BC system to be both an elegant and thematic relief from more traditional non-deterministic systems (primarily those involving dice and charts). Which specific card game it most resembles could well form the basis of a new thread. But the unmistakable fact is that the BC system is a card game in its own right and has nothing historic or evocative about it other than the words (and now pictures) on the cards that are meant to remind one of forms of tactics in use during, or close to, the period being represented. The card game itself would have worked just as well with numbers or letters (I play a "five," match that!).
RHB would know better but I can't help believing that the cards themselves may have been inspired by an old AH game based on the American Revolutionary War entitled 1776. The cards looked quite similar and had similar terms on them but were used to determine die roll modifiers rather than actual combat outcomes and used a look-up table where the cards were cross-referenced (a la rock/scissors/paper) to provide the mod. The basic combat system used a CRT/die roll mechanism. As Richard has refreshingly told us, the system in Hannibal was not to be like that.
I have also used a Crazy Eights comparison but I would argue that the BC card game may be even more like Snap! as the sole basis for it is card matching. Upon this, "hang all the law and the prophets" (in other words all the rest is window dressing)...
As for more evocative systems - where to begin?
|
Charles Féaux de la Croix
Germany Berlin
|
bentlarsen wrote: I disagree, and the comparison with the ACW is beyond silly. Time for you to pull out those history books again. And which ACW books will demonstrate that the Union's Anaconda Plan was Fabian like in strategy?
In a nutshell, the Roman post-Cannae grand strategy was all about restricting and diminishing Hannibal's freedom of action and ensuring he couldn't draw supplies and reinforcements from his overseas bases. The aim was to turn Hannibal's internal lines into a liability. The Union's Mississippi campaign to cut the Confederacy in two (and the later March to the Sea, I might add) may be compared to the progressive nibbling away at Hannibal's territory in Southern Italy. Ultimately, he was reduced to operating merely in Lucania. Both the Union and Roman Republic used their naval superiority to ensure little overseas supplies were able to reach their enemy. Also, consider McClellan's conservative strategy, reluctance to join battle at risky odds and preparation for a long war. I'm not the first to compare Rome's and the Union's strategy. It's been done by the ACW's contemporaries and later historians. How about thinking twice (oh, and perhaps arguing your case...) before dismissing something and somebody as silly and ignorant...?
|
Charles Féaux de la Croix
Germany Berlin
|
Bubslug wrote: But the unmistakable fact is that the BC system is a card game in its own right and has nothing historic or evocative about it other than the words (and now pictures) on the cards that are meant to remind one of forms of tactics in use during, or close to, the period being represented. Unmistakable fact? Come on, give it a rest. Many vehemently disagree with the position you, Bent and a few others have and have argued that the BC system is actually very evocative of ancient warfare. I don't want to reopen this old debate, but just want to point out that given how hotly the matter is debated, there can be no talk of this being an "unmistakable fact".
|
|
|
Quote: but at the same scale try out my "Ancient World" combat system. THAT is an era-evocative - and era=definitive - combat system. (Not the only one, to be sure . . . ) All in one dieroll, too. One dieroll sounds a bit misleading. You forget about the 4 pages of pre-combat resolution, combat resolution and combat loss charts with in total (let me count) 13 tables and lots and lots of die roll modifiers. Going through endless charts isn't my idea of evocative; playing a suspensful and quick cardgame embedded within the wider, strategic scope of the game, with some added historical chrome, plausible results, in which you have to make some meaningfull choices (avoid, withdraw etcetera) comes much closer.
|
Aram Schvey
United States Washington Dist of Columbia
|
The debate about whether the battle-card system is evocative is tiresome, because this is a GAME, not a simulation of reality. How is rolling a cube painted with pips any more evocative of a battle?
|
Severus Snape
Canada
Ontario
|
charlesf wrote: bentlarsen wrote: I disagree, and the comparison with the ACW is beyond silly. Time for you to pull out those history books again. And which ACW books will demonstrate that the Union's Anaconda Plan was Fabian like in strategy?
In a nutshell, the Roman post-Cannae grand strategy was all about restricting and diminishing Hannibal's freedom of action and ensuring he couldn't draw supplies and reinforcements from his overseas bases. The aim was to turn Hannibal's internal lines into a liability. The Union's Mississippi campaign to cut the Confederacy in two (and the later March to the Sea, I might add) may be compared to the progressive nibbling away at Hannibal's territory in Southern Italy. Ultimately, he was reduced to operating merely in Lucania. Both the Union and Roman Republic used their naval superiority to ensure little overseas supplies were able to reach their enemy. Also, consider McClellan's conservative strategy, reluctance to join battle at risky odds and preparation for a long war. I'm not the first to compare Rome's and the Union's strategy. It's been done by the ACW's contemporaries and later historians. How about thinking twice (oh, and perhaps arguing your case...) before dismissing something and somebody as silly and ignorant...? Part of the disagreement comes from your choice of words--"Anaconda Plan," which brings to mind the plan originated by Scott, before he retired and handed the reins over to Little Mac. This plan did not involve tailing Confederate armies, while nipping at their heals, nor did it involve a Fabian approach by avoiding battles. Little Mac did not want to avoid a fight, he just wanted to fight on his own terms and conditions. The practical problem was that his terms and conditions were so perfectionist in thinking that real fighting did not happen nearly enough. To call his strategy "Fabian" would be to give him too much credit. I understand that you have superior history books on your side of the pond, but on this side I have yet to have read an ACW book which calls Little Mac "Fabian," unless someone has misunderstood the "Fabian" appoach. When Grant, Inc. cut the Confederacy in two at Vicksburg, it was hardly a case of "nibbling." The South lost because its armies were defeated in the field. From a strategic standpoint, the war was won/lost in the West, but Lee & Company still awaited Grant, Inc. for the operational showdown in the East. "Ignorant" is not a word I used, so why say that I did if accuracy is imporant to you? "Silly" is a word that I used, and why bother to think twice when I was right the first time? Some ideas are silly. If things are getting too hot for you, you can always leave the kitchen. We both love Hannibal, the game and in history; we do differ over the battle card system. And we differ over how to relate the 2nd Punic War to other periods of history.
Last edited on 2008-01-17 18:27:56 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
|
Severus Snape
Canada
Ontario
|
charlesf wrote: Bubslug wrote: But the unmistakable fact is that the BC system is a card game in its own right and has nothing historic or evocative about it other than the words (and now pictures) on the cards that are meant to remind one of forms of tactics in use during, or close to, the period being represented. Unmistakable fact? Come on, give it a rest. Many vehemently disagree with the position you, Bent and a few others have and have argued that the BC system is actually very evocative of ancient warfare. I don't want to reopen this old debate, but just want to point out that given how hotly the matter is debated, there can be no talk of this being an "unmistakable fact". Why not throw the questions at RHB? If you think that anyone has demonstrated that the battle-card system is "evocative" of anything other than a card game in and of itself, then you have chosen to look over the "unistakable fact" that no one has done so, if for no other reason than it cannot be done. You heard RHB's description of why/how the designer came up with the battle-card system. Here it is again: The Battle Card system in HANNIBAL is evocative of nothing. Mark designed the system because his wife wouldn't help him playtest the game if she had to look at charts and she liked cards. E.g,m to allow Romans a "double Envelopment' card goes against the very rigid Roman tactical manual of the day (until Scipio started to change it). It would be similar to giving the French a "blitzkrieg" card in a 1940 game.Now, argue with Berg and demonstrate that he is wrong. Charles, it does not bother me that you like the emperor naked. Stark, staring, naked. Naked as a blue jay (the bird, not the ball player). What bothers me to no end it when the emperor's legions try to convince the non-believers how well-dressed he is. You can enjoy the battle-card system. You can play Hannibal to your heart's content. But do not pretend that the battle-card system represents history. For all we really know of the 2nd Punic War, the entire game may be a farce. And if Richard, or I, or anyone else dare to differ, do not tell us to give it a rest. It is our time to waste. You do not have to read anything that might give you doubts. Use your evident intelligence and energy to fight something other than windmills.
Last edited on 2008-01-18 15:10:47 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
|
Richard Young
Canada Victoria BC
|
charlesf wrote: Many vehemently disagree with the position you, Bent and a few others have and have argued that the BC system is actually very evocative of ancient warfare...don't want to reopen this old debate, but just want to point out that given how hotly the matter is debated, there can be no talk of this being an "unmistakable fact". I should have been clearer here that the "fact" I'm referring to is that it is a game within a game and one based on card matching. I really think the debate is over how evocative the little card game is for different players. As far as I'm concerned what it will "evoke" in folks playing it will differ as it is a highly subjective issue. This thread started with an old review by RHB being recycled perhaps in response to the re-issue of Hannibal by Valley Games, or because there were folks who encouraged him to re-present his thoughtful observations on games from an authoritative and long perspective. I chose to comment because I found the review interesting but wanted to add some contrasting as well as supportive opinion in response. You are right however that I have stated my views on how un-evocative I find the system, and precisely why, on numerous occasions so I will stand down on this here and simply restate my complete agreement with RHB on it. Different aspects of game design will always have degrees of both objective and subjective analysis in their discussion but I'm willing to grant RHB a great deal of credibility in his perspectives being as close to the source as he was...
Last edited on 2008-01-17 17:34:00 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
|
Richard Berg
United States
South Carolina
|
Help[s to remember, that a review is only an opinion. Granted, here an opinion backed by expertise, but still an opinion.
"Now, argue with Berg and demonstrate that he is wrong."
I'm waiting.
RHB
|
Jeff Kunkel
United States Smithtown New York
|
Wow, the battle card still brings up some passionate discussion.
Here's my perspective, that of a newcomer to the game.
I like it. Why? For one basic reason - unlike a CRT, the battle card mini-game offers a key decision at several points throughout the battle - whether or not you want to withdraw if you have the initiative, or retreat if you don't (i.e. voluntarily not match your opponent's card so as to minimize your casualties). CRT's do not permit this kind of decision making. As Bent pointed out, everything is decided in a single die roll - you can't choose to retreat while the die is still rolling.
As for whether nor not it's evocative, that depends on how you're using the term. Do you mean "evoking an emotional response" or "representative of reality?" The first is purely subjective, while the second is something that can be meaningfully debated. I don't think the mini-game is all that representative of a real battle, but I don't particularly care. It's far more interesting to me than a single die roll and referring to a table to see what happened. The battle card system gives the illusion that you have more control than you actually do, which can be just as fun as the real thing if you allow yourself to buy into it. You do have some control, of course, and some real decisions to make, but a significant portion of the outcome is determined by luck.
|
Nigel Wright
United Kingdom Nottingham England
|
aschvey wrote: The debate about whether the battle-card system is evocative is tiresome, because this is a GAME, not a simulation of reality. Welcome to the wonderful world of the grognard. What to a eurogamer is another game that just happens to have war and ancient historical themes is to a grognard a conflict simulation, and some sort of relation to historical reality beyond the cosmetic is pretty much expected. aschvey wrote: How is rolling a cube painted with pips any more evocative of a battle? The rolling of a die is a convenient way to add the necessary element of chance to the process, beyond that its very much a question of what other factors affect the outcome.
|
Richard Berg
United States
South Carolina
|
"How is rolling a cube painted with pips any more evocative of a battle?"
It's not the rolling of the die, but the game's combat system, the mechanics of combat, what goes into the battle . . . all of which is resolved by that die (or dice) roll, which represents not luck but the range of possible results based on the factors in the battle. Below is a list of the DierollModifiers for the one diceroll (11-66)in the Ancient World series . . . and that list doesn't include Avoidance, Ciounter-Attack, Coordinated Attack, et al.
You get some idea of what one can do with just one diceroll . . .
(8.31) The Battle DR Adjustments. Positive (+) DRM help the attacker; negative (-) DRM aid the defender.
Leader Tactical Ability Adjustment: The comparison of tactical abilities can result in a die roll adjustment of as much as +/–9. See 8.32 for how this works.
Subordinate Leader Battle Points: Non-active leaders with the Force may use their Subordinate Leader Ratings as die roll adjustments (maximum of 2 points per player). Leaders in command of the battle do not use their Subordinate Battle Rating to affect combat; they use their Battle Letter.
Combat Ratio Adjustment: The attacker totals his SPs and compares them to the total SPs the defender has. This comparison is expressed as a simple ratio, rounded down in favor of the defender. Players then consult the Combat Ratio Chart to determine the die roll adjustment. Odds are always expressed from the viewpoint of the attacker, so odds in favor of the attacker will get a positive adjustment, while those in favor of the defender will achieve a negative adjustment. Elephant SPs are not included in these calculations.
Cavalry Superiority: Determine the difference in cavalry strength by subtracting the cavalry strength of the player with the lesser amount from the player with the larger amount. Consult the Cavalry Superiority Chart and cross reference this difference with Force type and terrain to determine the battle DRM for Cavalry Superiority.
Failed Avoidance or Interception Attempt: +2 to die roll (as per 8.23 and 6.55).
Ambush: +5 to the die roll (see 6.58)
Double Envelopment: +4 to the die roll (see 6.57)
Terrain: If the attacker (any attacker, including one from a coordinating force) has crossed a river (and remember 6.35) to directly enter the battle hex (even if he used a road), subtract three (–3) from the die roll.
Amphibious Attacks: If the attacking force disembarked in the hex, or entered the hex via a strait crossing (6.38), subtract three (–3) from the die roll. If a force is attacked in its debarkation hex or remained in the hex entered after a strait crossing, add three (+3) to the attackers die roll (see 7.27).
Elite Units: The player adjusts the die roll one in his favor (attacker adds, defender subtracts) for each Elite unique unit type and Contingent of at least 5 SPs present. Elite cavalry modifiers apply even if the battle is in Mountain or Marsh terrain.
Play Note: If the player has at least 5 SPs of Elite Numidian Cavalry units involved in the battle, he would receive a +1/-1 to the die roll. The number of counters doesn’t matter. The modifier is determined by Contingent (Numidian) and Type (Cavalry) with a minimum of 5 SPs of that contingent and type.
After Battle Status Effects: Consult the After Battle Status Effects chart to determine the applicable Battle DRM. If units with more than one ABS are involved in the battle, use the worst.
Elephants: As per the Elephant Table.
All of the above adjustments are cumulative, and there is no limit to how far up or down the die roll may be adjusted, other than the limits of the BRT.
|
sunday silence
United States
Maryland
|
I for one am in the pro-Battle card camp and I'd like to make a few pts.
Okay, no. 1, the battle card system in Hannibal is somewhat awkward because of all those die rolls for iniative thrown in the middle of a card game. Few games, let alone wargames have been able to combine both cards and dice (know any?). There are some good, logical reasons why that is, and we can explore that, but I will just touch upon it for now. So for those who criticize the BC on the basis of interminable die rolling: you have a pt. It does drag the game out way too long. Because while the players wisely invest their thinking time on how to play the battle cards, in the end, they are left to the vagaries of the dice.
Hence valuable game time is spent thinking on the cards, but then the dice intervene anyway. It's not a complete waste but it's somewhat wasteful of thinking time you spend on the game. Doing dice would be much faster and less thinking. Doing cards, per se, would be some thinking time and quite challenging. Doing both together gives you the worst of both worlds; even more time and less cerebral. A horse by committe as it were.
Okay, pt 2. Cards are far different than dice; they are not the same. The one major factor that you have to consider in wargames, nay, all games is this; What information is available to the players? In dice games, the information is equaly available to both sides. In card games information is not equally available to both sides.
You want to play wargames with dice and CRT's then you might as well just concede that both commanders knew everything about each other going into battle. That is ridiculous but just keep on pumping out these types of wargames and see where it leads. It's been going on for fifty years so I guess it will continue a few more.
COmmnder's didnt have perfect information, and even more crucially; they didnt have the same information as the other guy. Furthermore: it is even more ludicrous to think that each commander would have access to the outcome of the battle at the same as the other. Not talking about before the battle, now I am talking about the results of battle. For the US to be as aware of what is happening in a jungle in vietnam at the same time as RNVN; or for Hitler to know what has happened in Normandy the same time as Ike or for....Well you get the picture.
That's the pt. of cards. That's they are more effective.
3) If you want to compare cards to playing Go Fish; can you explain why Schotten Totten/Battle Line has recieved such praise all across the spectrum? Why does no one criticize that game as playing Poker for War? WHy does that analogy not come up? Isnt there really something interesting going on here when you use a simple card mechanic for war? So enough w/ the Go Fish analogies; there are card games and card mechanics that can work for this. You dont like Poker for War? take a look at Durak.
4) There is a "lottery" aspect to the Battle Cards. This is quite true and fair criticism, but you dont go around repeating it like Chicken Little and hiding behind that Mantra everytime someone calls you out and asks for an intelligent debate on the game...
You want to talk about the lottery apsect, or you want to hide?
It has been pointed out, quite well, that the basic Go Fish problem/Lotttery aspect of Hannibal manifests itself mostly in the early part of the battle. Near the end of battle there is more use for deduction, thinking, etc. There is another discussion on this forum for that, it's readily available.
Therefore, the main problem with the "lottery aspect" is in the early part of the battle. Ergo: if you can solve that problem you can probably get the Battle Cards working quite well.
THere could be any number of ways to solve this problem? How does Battle line do it? How does Durak do it? So if you want to enter this debate start thinking of solutions rather than just winning some debating game.
|
Richard Young
Canada Victoria BC
|
sundaysilence wrote: ...Few games, let alone wargames have been able to combine both cards and dice (know any?). There are some good, logical reasons why that is, and we can explore that, but I will just touch upon it for now. So for those who criticize the BC on the basis of interminable die rolling: you have a pt. It does drag the game out way too long. Because while the players wisely invest their thinking time on how to play the battle cards, in the end, they are left to the vagaries of the dice. The dice are not the culprit for the extended time fighting battles takes here...it is the little card game itself. The die roll is an integral part of it as a way of having the initiative change hands - sometimes a card will do that on its own (DE). If you dislike the card game, as I do you, you begrudge the length the whole process takes to do what it does, and I certainly don't just blame the dice. As for games that very successfully combine dice and cards for battle resolution, I must question what your basis of comparison actually is? Just about all of the GMT CDGs do for a start and most of them are excellent. Other examples: War of the Ring, Twilight Imperium, Risk: 2210, etc (too numerous to mention). If you allow for a transition from cards to tiles (just different shapes and sizes really), then a lot of Martin Wallace's titles emerge: Princes of Rennaisance, Struggle of Empires, and the one that most truly shows how to combine cards and dice, Empires of the Ancient World. I will argue that combining dice and cards can be one of the better ways to handle combat resolution and certainly doesn't have to be uncomfortably time consuming. Of the short list I've indicated only one (the last one) rivals Hannibal's little card game in the time department but it is so well designed you actually look forward to it (at least I do) rather than simply having to go through the motions. Approach to design is the key of course. sundaysilence wrote: Okay, pt 2. Cards are far different than dice; they are not the same. The one major factor that you have to consider in wargames, nay, all games is this; What information is available to the players? In dice games, the information is equaly available to both sides. In card games information is not equally available to both sides...
This intro and the rest of the discussion under pt 2. simply left me scratching my head as to what your point actually was. Perfect vs. imperfect information I guess? I think of simultaneous or hidden movement, block games, and other "surprise" elements of a battle resolution system as some of the ways designers have employed to mirror that reality in human conflict. As RHB clearly explained, the roll of a die is the game designer's tool to abstract all the intangibles (Clausewitz' term for this was "friction"), many of which cannot be represented in a boardgame except in an abstract way, into a system which presents a range of possible outcomes but leaves the selection of which one will actually occur to chance. So sure, the players know what goes into the formula but aren't sure precisely what the result will be. How many of the elements of "friction" a designer can model will vary with the aim of the game (game---consim). Again, there are any number of ways of doing this as the range of different games out there will readily attest. The questions that are important to me are: 1) Is the system reasonable in terms of results? 2) Does the system support the theme? 3) Does the system require similar skill as might be required of a military commander in the manipulation of the manageable elements? I give the system in Hannibal half a point for #1, half a point for #2 and 0 for #3. One point total out of three is a failing grade in my book. sundaysilence wrote: 3) If you want to compare cards to playing Go Fish; can you explain why Schotten Totten/Battle Line has recieved such praise all across the spectrum? Why does no one criticize that game as playing Poker for War? WHy does that analogy not come up?...You dont like Poker for War? take a look at Durak. Battle Line is a pure card game set strictly at the tactical level. If that same system were in Hannibal (no reason why it couldn't work), I would be even more vehemently against it as being totally out of place in a stategic/operational level game. As a combination of Rummy and Poker I have no interest in it either as a stand alone game or part of something larger - so I guess you are seeing criticism of it here and now. Durak? Durak?? Should I be starting to feel a huge hook in the side of my mouth?!? sundaysilence wrote: 4) There is a "lottery" aspect to the Battle Cards. This is quite true and fair criticism, but you dont go around repeating it like Chicken Little and hiding behind that Mantra everytime someone calls you out and asks for an intelligent debate on the game...You want to talk about the lottery apsect, or you want to hide?
Erm, not knowing what to say at this point I guess I'll have to hide, which I'm really starting to think I should have done from the opening of this, ah, debate...
Last edited on 2008-01-21 23:30:24 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
|
Bill Wood
United States Eden North Carolina
|
If I were to use a Richard Berg game design on the 2nd Punic War, it would take me two months to complete, using 6 hour play sessions every Saturday in a month. In the same time I could enjoy HRvC 24 times and have a lot more fun... Hannibal is a great deal of fun - while a Berg game can be fun too - if a whole lot more of a chore.  ------------------ Not to say I don't enjoy Richard Berg games - I bet at least 30% of what I own is Berg designed or based - like all the GBACW games, the South Mountain games, The Crusaders (which is a lot of fun, more grognardly, and would make a good starting point for a Berg Hannibal game). Sometimes though, I really do like to finish my games.... ------------------ I actually have room in my gaming life for both types of games - Bergfests and Playfests...amof, my group tends to keep one grognard like game running and setup for weeks on end, and 1 medium weight game going (say, Pea Ridge or Sicily, for example) and an empty table for the player games, like Hannibal, or the scenario based games, like ASL, Soldiers, BoH, Tank Leader... ----------------- Berg's review at the start is a fair one - if I need a history lesson or more detail, I have to go beyond Hannibal. Just like if I want to to do a quick Waterloo, out comes AH's Napoleon; if I want more detail, out comes Berg's Battles of Waterloo.
Last edited on 2008-03-10 09:31:12 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
|
|
|