geek
The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Rules | Subscriptions | Bookmarks | Search | Account | Moderators
Recommend
59
11 Posts
New Thread | Printer Friendly | Subscribe  sub options | Bookmark
Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David G. Cox Esq.
Australia
Lighthouse Beach
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
Machiavelli » Forums » Reviews
No! No! No! Machiavelli is NOT the Same as Diplomacy!
Yesterday I read a Geek List that pointed out that there is no review for Machiavelli – I took that as a challenge.


I have played Machiavelli several times – both face-to-face and by mail. My initial reaction to the game was that it was a Diplomacy clone. That opinion was based on ignorance – to think that Machiavelli is simply ‘Diplomacy in Italy’ is to do Machiavelli a grave injustice.

The Components
Originally published by Battleline, Machiavelli was reprinted in two different editions by Avalon Hill. I have owned all three versions.
Battleline – the counters were in strong primary and secondary colours and were double thickness (as was the habit of Battleline). The map was on cardboard and had the home territories colour-coded to facilitate the set-up of counters.




Avalon Hill 1st Edition – used the same box design as Battleline. The map was mounted and rather than having entire provinces colour-coded, only the edges of the provinces were of the colour matching the initial owner. The counters were the same colours as previously but only half the thickness (normal Avalon Hill thickness).


Avalon Hill 2nd Edition – game moved to a book-case box. The counters went to tertiary colours – much softer than the original counters (on the eyes - not to the touch) . The map became a work of art with many shades of blue representing the sea and the land areas replaced with shades of gold and brown. There is a soft colour shading at the edge of provinces to show initial ownership. It is so subtle as to be virtually a waste of effort – but the map does look really attractive.



The Rules
The game has several scenarios – one of the scenarios is for 8 players and the other three scenarios are for 6 players. There are suggestions for variations on the number of players so the game can be played by fewer than 6.

The game has Basic Rules which are virtually the same as the rules of Diplomacy.

The Advanced Rules, however, give Machiavelli a totally new dimension and allows for many more options regarding both strategy and tactics.
Finances – money is gained by controlling territory. Forces are built using this money and you may build one elite unit. You can lend or give money to other players.
Expenditure - money can be spent on Famine Relief (optional rules), Rebellions, Assassination Attempts (if successful the victim’s forces do nothing for a turn), Bribing Enemy Forces to disband or even change sides.

Playing The Game
You should really play with the Advanced and Optional Rules. They add no real complexity to the game but add massive variety and opportunities. I played one game where I was able to take out my neighbour on the very first turn of the game. I hate to say it but I lied to him. I let him think I was his ally and I borrowed money from him. I used this money to disband two of his armies and to gain control of a third. On the first move I marched into his two provinces where his armies had been disbanded and used the third army to take control of his third and last city. He was out. I now cringe at the thought of it and ask myself how could I ever have acted in such a way to a person who trusted me. Needless to say I didn’t have to repay the money I had borrowed.

Is It Really Different To Diplomacy

If you only use the Basic Rules the answer is "NO", it really is 'Diplomacy in Italy'.

If you use the Advanced and Optional rules it is quite different because the military aspects of the game become much more open, much more variable and have an element of randomness. Combat in Diplomacy is not random - two units will always beat one unit and three units will never beat another three units. This all changes in Machiavelli. Due to random factors such as plague and rebellion armies may die and provinces may stop producing income. Due to Assassination armies you expect to move may do nothing. Due to the Bribery of armies some of your units may disappear or even turn against you. Due to Elite units having the strength of two ordinary units a single army can now defeat another single army.

It is all due to money and how you use it. A worthwhile strategy is to play a low-key, save your money and when you have enough in reserve become very aggressive. The is a much stronger feel of randomness in Machiavelli - Diplomacy has a much stronger element of certainly when it comes down to military affairs.

Honesty in ‘Diplomacy-type’ games
When I first started playing this sort of game I was under the misapprehension that lying was a mandatory part of the game. I used to feel sick in the stomach because I was lying to people. It made me feel really uncomfortable, even though it was only a game. I was quite happy to shoot and assassinate people – but lying was a different thing altogether. Happily I have found that you don’t HAVE TO lie at all. You can adopt the policy that you think long and hard about your agreements and you word them in such a way that you can honour them and win. I will now frequently put a time limit or a condition that the agreement is in effect until certain things happen or even simply have a clause that two turns notice will be given between cancelling an agreement and then attacking the former ally. I find this works for me and actually makes it easier for other people to deal with you.

An Amazing Tournament

One of my most amazing gaming experiences was a Machiavelli tournament for teams of 3 players. In each team one person was the Ruler, another was the Marshall and the third was the Diplomat.
The rules were as follows: Rulers could only talk to their personal Marshall and Diplomat. Diplomats were allowed 10 minutes in the diplomacy area to talk to other Diplomats. Each Marshall was allowed to choose to talk to another Marshall for 5 minutes (this meant that if each Marshall chose a different person that would get to talk to two others for 5 minutes each – if by some chance two Marshals chose each other they would get 10 minutes).
The Ruler would instruct the Diplomat regarding what he wanted said and who he wanted it said to. He would also instruct the Marshall, in general terms, who were friends and who were enemies.
The Diplomat would talk with other Diplomats and report back to the Ruler (I was the Diplomat – goodness knows why).
The Marshall would make all military decisions.
As it turned out, we did very poorly for the first 6 turns. After that we stopped talking to the other Diplomats and let our armies do our talking for us and our situation improved. Clearly the Marshall was better at his job than the Diplomat.

"Dead Men Tell No Tales!" :arrrh:
Last edited on 2008-02-13 15:42:16 CST (Total Number of Edits: 5)
Bill Morgal
United States
Elkridge
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmb
And I quite like the trim of your review sails. If I ever need a pirate, I know who to look for.

The tournament you played in sounds really neat. The three player team idea sounds like it was a lot of fun.
Alex Rockwell
United States
Bothell
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
patron0609
mbmbmbmb
This game was described to me as 'its kindof like diplomacy'.
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron060708
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
This game was described to me as 'its kindof like diplomacy'.


Yea, the reviewer stated that "to think that Machiavelli is simply ‘Diplomacy in Italy’ is to do Machiavelli a grave injustice." Yet nowhere in the review did I find anything to make me think it was NOT like Diplomacy.

A little more depth on the differences in the two games would be helpful. Not that I will ever play either, but you know, I'm just sayin'...
David G. Cox Esq.
Australia
Lighthouse Beach
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Quote:
This game was described to me as 'its kindof like diplomacy'.


Yea, the reviewer stated that "to think that Machiavelli is simply ‘Diplomacy in Italy’ is to do Machiavelli a grave injustice." Yet nowhere in the review did I find anything to make me think it was NOT like Diplomacy.

A little more depth on the differences in the two games would be helpful. Not that I will ever play either, but you know, I'm just sayin'...


The difference is when you use the advanced rules. In Diplomacy every unit has a strength of one and units cannot be bribed. This means that the 'front-line' can be rather static.

The Financial Rules create many more options and make it easier to 'break through' and opposing force. Also, Elite units (each side is allowed to have one) have double strength - it is much more difficult to just 'hold the line' and try to 'stonewall' your opponent.

You also have the chance, with the optional rules, of plagues and rebellions occuring which creates more randomness in the game. Diplomacy has very little randomness regarding combat resolution.
Last edited on 2008-02-13 13:19:53 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
David Abel
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
There's nothing sweeter than bribing your way into Venice, except of course, bribing your way into Venice with money from another player who was originally paid by Venice to attack you.

This is by far my favorite variant. Before learning this, we were playing Blood Royal where you have all this money and nothing to do with it. Machiavelli taught us what money is truly for.
Last edited on 2008-02-13 18:17:39 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Steve Hope

Emerald Hills
California
msg tools
Avatar
040506070809
mbmbmbmbmb
I used to like this game a lot (probably still would, actually), but the one thing that stuck in my craw was the bribery system--a little too chaotic for the rest of the game. Which is too bad, because it ruins the tactical analysis that is really at the heart of what makes Diplomacy great. There are plenty of stab-your-neighbor games. Diplomacy is special because it's layered on top of a simple yet interesting tactical system. While I like several of the tweaks in this game (variable incomes from different cities, elite units) the bribing and counter-bribing was a drag.

I think I'd choose to play it over Diplomacy still, but probably try some variant where you couldn't bribe opposing units, or at least where the money you spent to protect your units from bribery was preserved and could be used at your option as "bribery defense" in later turns. The biggest single problem with the system that I recall is that the best defense was definitely a good offense so the game degenerated into people disbanding opposing units all over the place.
Was George Orwell an optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
0506070809
mbmbmbmbmb
out4blood wrote:
Quote:
This game was described to me as 'its kindof like diplomacy'.


Yea, the reviewer stated that "to think that Machiavelli is simply ‘Diplomacy in Italy’ is to do Machiavelli a grave injustice." Yet nowhere in the review did I find anything to make me think it was NOT like Diplomacy.

A little more depth on the differences in the two games would be helpful. Not that I will ever play either, but you know, I'm just sayin'...


It really is Diplomacy with some added chrome. You've got a Dippy style map and Dippy style units, and you write Dippy style move orders for simultaneos resolution.

As the OP said, there are a bunch of additional rules that modify the base system. Some folks will think that makes the system more fun, and others will think it just muddies things up. But I can't see how anybody that has read the rules can dispute the lineage.
paul canosa
Japan

flag msg tools
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
It is quite rare for a bounce in mach, at least after the first bounce. After that first instance the money gets spent.

Diplomacy often turns into a bounce fest resulting in someone backstabbing another. But you need to team up on someone to make it work... unless one of the original players makes an error.

In mach you can pay your way through a bounce.

bribe the unit
fund a rebellion

plenty of other options in mach a much improved system.

Its like saying that roll and move is monopoly. Well monopoly is roll and move but not all roll and move is monopoly.
Andrew Rae
New Zealand
Wellington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for reviewing Mach, it was well worth the read. I'm inlcined to disagree with the thrust of your review though that dip and mach are the same.

Technically you are correct and practically there are many many more options open for you, I agree. The post about being able to resolve bounces by bribing is a good example. So yes they are different.

But to my mind the premise and underlying nature of the game remains the same. Two players will always beat one player all things remainign equal. There are just are few more factors to consider. If you are facing two player alone you can avoid a bounce by bribing one of thier units. However they can also do the same but with twice the amount of cash. So I would argue that, despite all the additional flexibility in the mechanics the game still plays the same. You must ally with other players and coordinate your forces.

So perhaps we can say that the mechanics are different but the game still plays in the same way as diplomacy. Afterall a good diplomacy player will beat a bad one in mach just as easily as in dip. And the skills required to play both are incredibly similar. Certainly though the point is taken that mach is more complex and allows a little more cunning.

I would make a similar argument for Game of thrones, except that is another step removed again from dip. But besides all the addons, the primary mechanism is diplomacyand there is nothing around that.

On another point I also wonder if I read your comments correctly. They seemed to imply that you had a problem with lying, but not with decieving. Therefore Mach is a better game for you because the mechanisma made deceiving easier. To my mind lying is just a more overt form of deception and I view both in the same light in diplomacy. Still I can see how others might feel differently. Either way I would argue that there is as much room for deciving in diplomacy as in mach. The less specific an agreement the more wiggle room there is.

To my mind Mach is a good alternative for Dip, though I would be wary of thinking of Mach as anything more than a dip varaint with bells on. Thank you for the review and for stimulating the discussion.




n h


msg tools
Hi all

I have played and enjoyed Diplomacy for years, both FTF and vie email. But when I came across Machiavelli, I quit Dip altogether and now only play Mach !!

For those of you who want to play by email, you can do so on the automated judges which can be found on the Diplomatic Pouch:

www.diplom.org

www.floc.net has automated maps which makes playing Dip or Mach really easy.

The DP caters primarily for Dip but the Mach community, though small, is quite active. There are always 3 or 4 games going on at any given time and it's easy to find someone to master a game if you want one set up.

I would advise all, experienced players and beginners, to give it a go. You only need to register, it's free and it's fun.

Any questions, ask me :)

Best
Nick
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
BoardGameGeek and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.