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Antike » Forums » Reviews
An unusual game: perfect information but also set-collection-like goals

1. Introduction

When I purchase games on-line, as opposed to taking the pick of the lot which a store might happen to have when I come in, I will listen to comments of friends and acquaintances about the games and more recently look to see comments here on BGG about the game. What initially peaked my interest in this particular game was the intriguing comment that game-play lacked any sort of random element. Although I enjoy many games with random elements in them—indeed the fact I like card games will shortly become relevant to this discussion—I generally think the crême de la crême are those board games, mostly abstracts, which include perfect information. Most of these are two-player games and so all the more Antike peaked my interest. Yet, although the remarks were generally positive, they were also generally vague about what specifically was the attraction of the game. This review is partly intended to try and remedy this vagueness by offering my opinion as to the merits of this game.

Yet, the manner in which I characterize the game may appear odd at first: namely, I would say that the goals of this game are in the main strongly reminiscent of the set-collection class of card games and yet without any of the “lick of the draw” element which makes me less fond of that class of card games than others. This is by no means saying that the board is irrelevant in this game; to the contrary, the board is highly essential, but I will get to that in a moment. Rather, I will explain by a seeming digression about card games. Although I will play games like Rummy once in a while, my taste tends to games like Hearts, Spades and a three-handed bidding game called, like so many other card games, 500. All of these have in common that the cards are dealt out completely at the beginning and so the only randomness is found in the initial deal; the rest of play is bidding and trick-taking which amounts to a strategic assessment of one’s hand and then resource-management. I do like games like Mille Bornes which depend on the draw and collection of certain types of cards—mileage in the last example—under certain restrictions, but the heavy element of randomness means that the game is not and cannot be pure strategy. By contrast, the mechanics of Antike can be largely regarded as a form of set collection where the first player to acquire a certain number of sets—depending on the number of players—wins the game BUT these “sets”, for each of which one acquires an “ancient personage” card, are obtained in a totally non-random fashion. In short, this game modifies to a board game a mechanic characteristic of a class of card games (a contention I will hereafter justify). That class of games is not entirely ruined by the heavy random element associated with “luck of the draw”, but certainly among the pro’s and con’s of these games that random element is the chief ”con”; in some games, randomness is a good thing, but not in this case. Antike takes that mechanic but puts it in a totally non-random context using the board; it adapts the “pro’s” without the chief “con”.

2. Components

In order to be able to demonstrate the perhaps startling premise of this review, one needs talk about the nature of game-play. This is much facilitated however by a primary treatment of the components of the game, to which naturally a discussion of game-play must refer.

a. The Board

The game-board is double-sided, with a map of the ancient world on each side. One side shows the Mediterranean and Black Sea region, going as far north as southern Britain and as far south as northern Africa at the latitude of the southern tip of the Sinai peninsula; the rules’ booklet’s claim with represents the domain of the Roman Empire is not entirely true but the areas briefly under Roman rule that are cut off are relatively negligible. The other side shows northeastern Africa from the eastern coast of Libya down to the Ethiopian peninsula, the Arabian peninsula, Persia and as far west as the southern tip of Italy and mainland Greece. Again, the rules booklet’s contention to show the domain of Alexander’s empire is not completely correct in that India is excluded, but likewise the conquest of northwestern India in the time of the Guptas was extremely transitory, albeit not without some important effects. Speaking as someone who strongly considered an academic career in ancient history, this is a very cool board.

Personally, I would have preferred the rondel and the scoring and knowledge tracks, all of which I will explain below when dealing with game-play, to be on a separate board like the battle board used in the Axis and Allies games; this would not only look better but would require only printing it once, not twice. Likewise, the logo of the game itself would be better in my opinion of the outer edge instead of obscuring part of the map, as it does on both sides. Yet, the board remains attractive and detailed.

Each map is divided into fifty territories—if my quick count is correct—with one city in each. Each city has one of three symbols on it to identify which of three resources that city produces—iron, gold or marble. Although the city markers obscure the symbols, the names are written beside the symbol on color-coded banners, using blue for iron, yellow for gold and white for marble.

The borders of the territories are red for land territories, blue for water territories [in practice, islands since a city must be built somewhere] and a combination for coastal territories.
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NB: I plan to add a variant to Diplomacy soon using Antike equipment; it works amazingly well.


b. Pieces

Each player has three types of pieces—circular city markers, galleys shaped like a stylized ship and legions shaped almost but not quite like Meeples [a helmet’s outline ruins an exact resemblance]-- in one of six colors, plus six similarly colored cylindrical markers each. All are painted wooden pieces and so quite durable but also making the box relatively heavy for its size.

In addition, the game includes twenty “white” temples, which are really more a light tan.
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Jewish humor: We refer to these as beitei kenesiot—“shuls” to ashkenazim-- except for the one in Jerusalem which is mislabeled Tyros on both sides of the board. The figuring is that the makers of the game must be Reform.


c. Other Elements

The rules are remarkably clear and well-written with several examples and a section of FAQs, but they are also dense. A lot of information is packed into each statement and few if any words are wasted. Most people will have to read through the rules two or three times to make sure they did not miss any important details. Four rules summary cards, double-sided in English and German, are included, but the rules are frankly simple and consistent enough that one probably will not need these past the second time playing.

The last two types of equipment of the game are both types of game money. In the ancient world, paper money did not exist and indeed coins represented only the intrinsic value of the metal. Keeping therefore very much with the theme of the game, the “money” comes in two varieties: Roman numeralled 1’s, 2’s and 5’s in the three types, iron, gold and marble and generic coins equivalent to one of any of these. The generic coins do not to my knowledge reproduce any specific species of actual ancient coin but stylistically resemble any number of ancient coins. Although these are all card-board, the card-board used appears to me the durable kind unlikely to fray over time with usage.

Finally, the game includes several cards. The only random drawing is when one picks which civilization one will play—a different set of six for each side of the board—but even then the first player is determined in each case, depending or whether three, four, five or six people and playing. The first player receives a first player card to set in front of themselves as a reminder to distribute one coin to each player before the turn of the first player’s turn on each round. The remaining cards have five types and always are stacked in the same order: kings, scholars, generals, citizens and navigators. A player receives one of these cards for accomplishing certain tasks in the game and the first player to acquire ten for three players, nine for four players, etc., wins.

3. Game-Play

Each player starts with three cities specified on the card of the nation being played. One produces iron, another gold and the last marble. Players also start with one iron, three gold and two marble, as well as a single generic coin given to each player before the first player takes his turn on each round, including as I read the rules the first.

Central to the game is the rondel, a circular device divided into eight wedges representing seven types of actions. Only “maneuver”, which allows one to move either legions or galleys on the board, appears twice on the rondel. Collection of iron, gold or marble is represented on the rondel by a wedge naming the specific resource. The remaining three actions are arming [which costs one iron per legion or galley placed on the board], building a temple [which costs five marble] and know-how, i.e., acquiring new technology or innovations [which costs gold in amounts that differ depending on whether the knowledge obtained is new or not and primary or secondary].

On the first turn, each player places one of his cylindrical markers on one wedge of the rondel and performs the appropriate action. Thereafter, one each turn, a player move his marker clock-wise up to three spaces on the rondel for free but can pay one of any of the thee resources for each space beyond three on the rondel he may wish to move his marker. One should however note that maneuver allows one to possibly perform two types of actions: founding of a city-- at the cost of one iron, one gold and one marble—or military action which destroys a city and possibly a temple with it, replacing the city with one of the player’s own city markers by eliminating the legion and/or galley used to do it.

The resemblance to a set-collecting card game likes in the nature of the goals set in this game. If one at any point possesses five cities, one gets a king card. To get a second king card one must then at some point have ten cities on the board. Only nine king cards exist and so these will tend to run out fast. Scholar and general cards I will explain shortly. If at any point, one has three temples on the board, one gets a citizen card. To get a second citizen card, one must then have six temples on the board. To get a navigator card, one must have seven galleys on the board in seven different regions simultaneously. To get a second navigator card, one would need fourteen galleys in as many different regions simultaneously. For these, the resemblance to sets collected appears obvious and straight-forward.

A scholar card is acquired for introducing one of eight types of “know-how”, the primary ones the wheel, sailing, market and monarchy and the respective secondary ones roads, navigation, currency and democracy. Introducing a new primary know-how costs seven gold and a primary second know-how costs ten. Once other players have introduced these innovations, primary know-how costs three gold and secondary five, although of course one must possess a primary know-how before one can proceed to the second. Not only does know-how give a player advantages in the game but any player possessing all eight know-hows gets an additional “ancient personage” card of whichever type have the most remaining. That clearly is a species of set collection. Yet even the acquiring of know-how involves the collection of a certain amount of gold; one must simply be the first to cash in the collection of gold if one wishes to acquire a card for it.

One should note here that the wheel increases a legion’s range of motion from one to two and roads from two to three. Similarly, sailing increases the range of a galley’s motion from one to two and navigation from two to three. Currency allows one to collect a single extra unit of iron, gold or marble whenever one collects these, and currency increases the extra units collected to two. This is similar to the fact that placement of a temple on a city increases the contribution from that city of its type of resource from one to three. Monarchy increases the defensive value of a city from one to two and democracy from two to three. The presence of a temple in the city similarly adds two to the defense. Thus, for example a player must place ordinarily only one legion or galley in a city to destroy it and replace that city with one of his own city markers. If a player has a temple in the city, three legions and/or galleys are needed and so on. The presence of a player’s own legions or galleys in a city also increases the defensive factor. This is important because players also acquire a general card for each temple destroyed. Although this is the most removed from the set-collection model, one also here places a certain number of units in a region in order to acquire the general card and those units are removed when one does so.

4. Over-all

Which specific cards one obtains or even which types does not matter, only the total needed to win. This results in high re-playability in that the method for achieving victory will vary widely. One can get gold and translate it into know-how and thereby scholar cards and possibly one wild card. Alternatively, one could get marble and translate it into temples to get citizens cards. Finally, one could get iron and translate it into galleys for navigator cards, legions and/or galleys to use to found cities—spending all three resources to do so—or simply to take cities and so get king cards or to take cities with temples and so get general cards. In reality, one will combine these.

This game probably will not have the excitement of head-to-head confrontation; it is not a war game and not designed to be one. Indeed, a player cannot lose the last city so that one must win by getting cards, not eliminating opponents. Yet, if one likes card games as I do, this game has the feel of Rummy—not just a single hand, but a full game—yet without any luck of the draw.
Sean Scott
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i enjoyed antike as well.

the set-collection goal works well and the rondel mechanic for game play works
extremely well. i think the lack of a random factor here is excellent.

where i find the game falters a bit is late in the game.
players tend to get focused on what they are trying to achieve and work on accumulating
the resources necessary to get the cards needed to win while stockpiling defense on the
board in the form of galleys and legions.
there's nothing to force players in a battle situation. why have all the legions and galleys, then?
sure, you can get a general's card by tearing down an opponent's temple, but the game is won
before it's really necessary to do so. And there are so many legions on the board by then that
you become too vulnerable to your neighbors if you decide to go this route.

A suggestion to try and balance this a bit more...

A player must obtain one of each of the 5 card types in the total needed to win.


Matthew M Monin
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baksha wrote:

there's nothing to force players in a battle situation. why have all the legions and galleys, then?
sure, you can get a general's card by tearing down an opponent's temple, but the game is won
before it's really necessary to do so.


This is not my experience at all. There are not enough non-general VP cards to go around if everyone is doing their job, meaning the endgame is nothing but conquest as it is the only remaining way to score points.

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Quote:
where i find the game falters a bit is late in the game.
players tend to get focused on what they are trying to achieve and work on accumulating
the resources necessary to get the cards needed to win while stockpiling defense on the
board in the form of galleys and legions.
there's nothing to force players in a battle situation. why have all the legions and galleys, then?
sure, you can get a general's card by tearing down an opponent's temple, but the game is won
before it's really necessary to do so. And there are so many legions on the board by then that
you become too vulnerable to your neighbors if you decide to go this route.


My experience is different. I find players get cards as soon as they have the wherewithall to do so. Usually, the general cards are the last. So for example what I have seen are games where a player needs one more card to win and another player can prevent him from destroying one temple but not both so that the player has a definite win on his turn.
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whac3 wrote:
My experience is different. I find players get cards as soon as they have the wherewithall to do so. Usually, the general cards are the last. So for example what I have seen are games where a player needs one more card to win and another player can prevent him from destroying one temple but not both so that the player has a definite win on his turn.


With experienced and attentive players in 4+ player games Antike will always end the same way: all VP cards are gone, nobody has won, the next player to sack a temple wins (even if they have the lowest number of VPs).
Last edited on 2008-03-02 13:36:44 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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clearclaw wrote:
whac3 wrote:
My experience is different. I find players get cards as soon as they have the wherewithall to do so. Usually, the general cards are the last. So for example what I have seen are games where a player needs one more card to win and another player can prevent him from destroying one temple but not both so that the player has a definite win on his turn.


With experienced and attentive players in 4+ player games Antike will always end the same way: all VP cards are gone, nobody has won, the next player to sack a temple wins (even if they have the lowest number of VPs).


Didn't someone do the math in another thread and show that this is not possible?

There are 35 VP cards. Even if all 4 players have 8 VP cards each that's 32 cards, still 3 extra ones left. You only need 9 VP for victory.
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clearclaw wrote:
With experienced and attentive players in 4+ player games Antike will always end the same way: all VP cards are gone, nobody has won, the next player to sack a temple wins (even if they have the lowest number of VPs).


I think that needs to be amended to saw:

"In ClearClaw's experience..." That makes it more of a fact. It doesn't hold for everyone else's experience.


Nice review. I don't think you'd have to look hard to find my feelings on the game. I'm glad some people enjoy it though.
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
With experienced and attentive players in 4+ player games Antike will always end the same way: all VP cards are gone, nobody has won, the next player to sack a temple wins (even if they have the lowest number of VPs).


There are 35 VP cards. Even if all 4 players have 8 VP cards each that's 32 cards, still 3 extra ones left. You only need 9 VP for victory.


I can't find my copy of Antike to check the details (I've been digging in the game closet for 20 minutes), but it can and does happen. Possibly I'm mistaking the lower bound of 4 players for 5 players, but once we got a couple games under our belts this is the way that game after game after game after game ended without fail.

Isamoor wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
With experienced and attentive players in 4+ player games Antike will always end the same way: all VP cards are gone, nobody has won, the next player to sack a temple wins (even if they have the lowest number of VPs).


I think that needs to be amended to saw:

"In ClearClaw's experience..." That makes it more of a fact. It doesn't hold for everyone else's experience.


Assuming that you are playing with enough players that the cards can run out, every player can easily determine what the potential of every other player's position is, assuming they've played a couple times and are paying attention. Every player wants to win and will do whatever is necessary within the game to win.. Ergo, if they can't win then every player will take the move that prolongs the game and gives them the opportunity to possibly win later. If a player takes some other move, a move that clearly allows for a different player to win, then they are no longer playing for the win as agreed are giving up or not paying attention or doing something else -- all of which is unacceptable at the game table.
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You are either confusing it with the 5 player game, or doing something wrong int the 4 player game.
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The problem of running out of cards is one I too have experienced. Of course, I game with JC.

But even without that, all of the non-temple-sacking cards are always long gone before the game is over and it becomes a battle of sacking. I don't mind that per se, what I do mind is that every turn because a group effort of 4 against 1 or 5 against 1 to prevent the player immediately following the active player from winning and I stop being interested with all the arguing, negotiating, and bullying involved to get the active player to play right. I am all in favor of negotiation and negotiation games, and Antike certainly qualifies here, but each player should be responsible to play his own position.
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This is why I like adding the rule that the first empire to get all eight advancements gets to take one VP card from the stack with the most left in it. One more non-sacking goal.
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Now I have only played this game 1 time... But let me say it will probably never get another chance.

My experience was very similar to what clearclaw described.

IMHO.. this game sucks.

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Blackberry wrote:
This is why I like adding the rule that the first empire to get all eight advancements gets to take one VP card from the stack with the most left in it. One more non-sacking goal.


How is this adding a rule? As mentioned in the review above, my copy's set of rules clearly include this rule. My experience is that in a six-player game, this makes it so a player can not only sack temples but go for one or two last know-hows for the win. I've not had a game yet drag out too much because usually the ultimately winning player and all the others [or most if someone's playing badly that game] are neck to neck and each has a couple of different possible routes by which to win, whether a choice of temples to sack or going for that last know-how. I like that fact that in more than a few games I've thought to myself, "Inevitably someone will win this round; who's it going to be?"
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I've only played this game once, and I've never read the rules, so please treat this as much as questions as they are comments.

1. I really thought the game would benefit from rotating the starting player every turn, particularly since the game was explained to me as a race - first one to reach 8 VP (5 player game) wins, everyone else is out.

2. The military side of things struck me as very, very "Risk" like. First one to move was exposing themselves to horrid retribution from all sides. So if you struck when it couldn't win you the game, you'd weaken yourself so much as to give someone else the win.

3. Defense was nearly impossible, particularly with the "sudden death" end game as it was explained to me. I might be able to defend one temple, perhaps two, but to do so I'd need to expend a huge number of resources to build up my defense at a cost of taking other actions. So my options to gain VP while denying others VP from burning my temples to the ground seemed quite limited.

It was an interesting game with some interesting mechanics. But I'd be concerned that after playing it another 2-3 times I'd "just be done with it" because it had lost replayability interest.
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perfalbion wrote:
I've only played this game once, and I've never read the rules, so please treat this as much as questions as they are comments.

1. I really thought the game would benefit from rotating the starting player every turn, particularly since the game was explained to me as a race - first one to reach 8 VP (5 player game) wins, everyone else is out.

2. The military side of things struck me as very, very "Risk" like. First one to move was exposing themselves to horrid retribution from all sides. So if you struck when it couldn't win you the game, you'd weaken yourself so much as to give someone else the win.

3. Defense was nearly impossible, particularly with the "sudden death" end game as it was explained to me. I might be able to defend one temple, perhaps two, but to do so I'd need to expend a huge number of resources to build up my defense at a cost of taking other actions. So my options to gain VP while denying others VP from burning my temples to the ground seemed quite limited.

It was an interesting game with some interesting mechanics. But I'd be concerned that after playing it another 2-3 times I'd "just be done with it" because it had lost replayability interest.


1. This is just about as un-Risk-like a game as I can imagine still having a map-board. The notion of "don't strike unless it wins you the game" is, in my opinion, greatly exaggerated. Yes, legions or galleys used to strike are removed from the board, but in the games I've played military actions have always started early enough no one is built up. Frankly, the most common first military action I've seen is not sacking a temple but suddenly taking over enough cities to get one a second king card when all [or practically all] the cities have been claimed. If people play this game the way it's supposed to be played, there simply is no time for massive build-ups.

2. As for replayability, this game has so many ways of getting cards that I don't see how this could get repetitive unless a player just chooses to use the same strategy over and over again. No compelling reason exists to do so and I canthink of a good few reasons not to.

3. To you and to the maker of the snide remark above enlightening us with the in-depth comment that the poster thinks "this game sucks" [not very informative, eh?] I would simply say that I tried to get across in my review that I think this game appeals to that class of people who like card-games, and particularly set-collection card games. Obviously, this isn't either a card game or even one thinly disguised by an unnecessary board, but it does have a similar underlying mechanic. If one likes that mechanic, one will probably like this game. If one does not, then one probably will not.

THAT is the point of a review-- not to trash a game pointlessly but to illustrate who might like the game and why; even if one thinks a game badly done, the review and comments thereto should be specific. So, Ken, you need ask yourself if you like such set-collection games. If you do, go ahead and give this game another try. If you don't, then you'd probably be wasting your time.
Last edited on 2008-03-04 10:17:21 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Please remember, I've played this a total of once and shared my first impressions. I'm not writing a detailed review of the game, just sharing initial thoughts while noting I need to play it more.

whac3 wrote:
1. This is just about as un-Risk-like a game as I can imagine still having a map-board. The notion of "don't strike unless it wins you the game" is, in my opinion, greatly exaggerated.


This depends greatly on your position in the turn order and the actions of the players ahead of you. If they're building up massively and not striking as you suggest, then the level of risk corresponding to acting yourself increases.

And note that my comparison to Risk has only to do with the general case where he who strikes first in Risk often is leaving the door very open to opponents, which is what occurred in the game I played.

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If people play this game the way it's supposed to be played, there simply is no time for massive build-ups.


Not wanting to start a flame war, but if a game is "supposed to be played" one way and doesn't work as well as a game if it's not, then that's a design issue. You've elaborated an alternative path to victory over massive military actions to sack temples, and that's valid. But the play of your opponents will also dictate whether that's valid or not.

Now if you had to stop moving as soon as conflict occurred so that a perimeter defense was a more valid alternative, then your strategy is brilliant. But that's not how the rules were explained to me.

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2. As for replayability, this game has so many ways of getting cards that I don't see how this could get repetitive unless a player just chooses to use the same strategy over and over again. No compelling reason exists to do so and I canthink of a good few reasons not to.


You may be 100% right. I need to play it more and try other strategies to see if I agree with your assessment.

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3. To you and to the maker of the snide remark above enlightening us with the in-depth comment that the poster thinks "this game sucks" [not very informative, eh?]


I'd ask that you not lump me together with comments along those lines. I think I stated some comments, clearly stated they didn't have enough game play to qualify me as an experts, and pointed out initial thoughts. If they're inaccurate, I'm happy to discuss them and why.

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THAT is the point of a review-- not to trash a game pointlessly but to illustrate who might like the game and why; even if one thinks a game badly done, the review and comments thereto should be specific. So, Ken, you need ask yourself if you like such set-collection games. If you do, go ahead and give this game another try. If you don't, then you'd probably be wasting your time.


I hope you'll pardon me if I take some offense at your conclusion regarding the reason I posted. I don't need to "ask myself" much of anything. I didn't say the game sucked, I never said I would not play it again (indeed, I said I needed to play it again), and raised some concerns over mechanics and strategy that bothered me after an initial play.

Further, the point of the review is also to stimulate discussion about the game, what works, what doesn't, and how one might fix it. I've written some reviews myself where I've been positive and negative and discussed the game as a game. That's sparked much discussion on those threads with a great deal of information passing back and forth.

I might suggest to you that if you're unprepared for individuals to express alternate opinions, impressions, and/or concerns, that reviews aren't a great idea. I appreciate your review, I'll take your strategy advice into consideration, and I'll be happy to try the game again to see if it ultimately "works" for me. My commentary is designed to elicit responses as to alternate strategies and ides about a game and perhaps play it better (which generally increases one's enjoyment).

That I had some concerns after on play is not invalid on its face - I've been gaming over 20 years so I've some experience that can lead to good first impressions. They aren't always right, which is why I try the games again.

But I'd appreciate it if you didn't address my impressions as though I'm a raving lunatic (OK - this is over the top) looking to tear down the game and instead assumed I had some intelligence and thought in providing my conclusions.
Last edited on 2008-03-04 11:05:16 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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I was not intending to be harsh to you, Ken, and by "the way it's supposed to be played" I merely mean everyone's playing to win. Wasting one's time just uilding up early in the game is not playing to win. As for offending you, I'm sorry I did but I fail to see any reason for the offense. I merely politely responded to your comments.
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
whac3 wrote:
My experience is different. I find players get cards as soon as they have the wherewithall to do so. Usually, the general cards are the last. So for example what I have seen are games where a player needs one more card to win and another player can prevent him from destroying one temple but not both so that the player has a definite win on his turn.


With experienced and attentive players in 4+ player games Antike will always end the same way: all VP cards are gone, nobody has won, the next player to sack a temple wins (even if they have the lowest number of VPs).


Didn't someone do the math in another thread and show that this is not possible?

There are 35 VP cards. Even if all 4 players have 8 VP cards each that's 32 cards, still 3 extra ones left. You only need 9 VP for victory.


Yeah, that was me. The "math" is here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2125393#2125393

:-)
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