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Subject: All tokens played but game not finished yet rss

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Massimo B.
Italy
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What happens when a player has placed all 20 of his tokens and the end-game condition has not been reached yet?

If you think this could never happen, it just did in a play-by-web game on MaBiWeb:
http://www.mabiweb.com/modules.php?name=GM_Samurai&g_id=1251...

(EDIT: the above linked game is not locked anymore, I fixed it by allowing blue player to skip its turn and so it has now been completed.)

This case doesn't seem to be covered in the rules. Or did I miss it?
 
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Mark Haberman
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I don't see how that's possible since both players have the same number of tokens that aren't free-play.

Are you allowing players to play a free-play token without playing a normal one? I don't think that that is allowed.

Otherwise, both players should have played all their pieces by the same round, which they haven't.
 
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Heckle Jekyll
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Red still has tokens and should continue to play. Blue has not more turns.

A player may choose to only play one token per turn, if the other player plays six in one turn (one regular token and five symboled tokens) then that player will run out sooner and the other player can continue play.

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Mark Haberman
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Looking at the game log, this seems to be the case.

The translated, unofficial rules on BGG don't mention needing to play a non-free token as one of their plays, but I was always under the assumption that this was the case.

Can anyone with an official rule book confirm this?
 
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Massimo B.
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habermanm wrote:
Are you allowing players to play a free-play token without playing a normal one? I don't think that that is allowed.

Yes, that is allowed in my implementation, and it's not unusual for me to do this kind of move, e.g. placing just a ship. Why do you think it's not allowedby the rules?
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Drew
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MaBi wrote:
habermanm wrote:
Are you allowing players to play a free-play token without playing a normal one? I don't think that that is allowed.

Yes, that is allowed in my implementation, and it's not unusual for me to do this kind of move, e.g. placing just a ship. Why do you think it's not allowedby the rules?


Whether or not it's allowed, I can't imagine doing it. You're essentially giving up a turn. I imagine it's not covered in the rules because it's not something one would normally (or even abnormally) do in a game.
 
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Samuel Hinz
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mainly because the rules state that playing a non-free tile is the end of your turn and a free one isn't. meaning you place a free one, but your turn won't end until you've placed a normal tile.
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Massimo B.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Whether or not it's allowed, I can't imagine doing it. You're essentially giving up a turn. I imagine it's not covered in the rules because it's not something one would normally (or even abnormally) do in a game.

That's right for multiplayer games, but in a 2-player game there are situations where giving up a turn is exactly what you want. In chess it's called zugzwang.
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Massimo B.
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abodi wrote:
mainly because the rules state that playing a non-free tile is the end of your turn and a free one isn't. meaning you place a free one, but your turn won't end until you've placed a normal tile.

Where exactly in the rules is this stated?

In my copy of the rules I can't find anything supporting the claim that free-play tiles only are not allowed.

In the tokens description section it says:
- A player may play any number of the 5 tokens with Japanese characters in a turn.
- A player may play only one of the 15 tokens without Japanese characters per turn.

and later, in the turn description:

- At least one token must be played.

Just one token, no mention about the type of token. In German it says Mindestenes ein Plattchen muss gelegt werden, which seems the same to me.
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Justin
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the rules state that a token must be played each turn, but i think that's operating under the assumption that it's possible to do so. if a player exhausts their token pile, auto-passing their turns seems like the most reasonable solution to me. surely the game would not intend to create a situation where, per its own rules, it could not be played to completion! if it did, i think it would call this out as some sort of draw.
 
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Massimo B.
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Yes, that seems reasonable and it was also easy to implement, so for now I have updated Samurai in this way: players who run out of tokens will just be skipped (automatic pass) and the game goes on to completion.
Not that I think it would happen often, this was the first in 4600 games, and red played three times consecutively a single ship, a kind of suicidal strategy. But it could have been abused as a way to 'break' a game.

Until an official clarification about the single free token play will turn up, I will keep the current implementation. Thanks to all for your replies.
 
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Brian Newman
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MaBi wrote:
What happens when a player has placed all 20 of his tokens and the end-game condition has not been reached yet?

If you think this could never happen, it just did in a play-by-web game on MaBiWeb:
http://www.mabiweb.com/modules.php?name=GM_Samurai&g_id=1251...

This case doesn't seem to be covered in the rules. Or did I miss it?


It looks like you might have missed one rule that is commonly missed. We missed it for a long time.

The game ends when the last of ANY ONE of the three kinds of figures is removed from the board. I.e., when the last buddha is removed, the last rice field is removed, OR the last helmet is removed. Not when the last figure of ALL three kinds is removed.

I double checked and didn't see a rice field on your play-by-web game board, so the game would have ended already.
 
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Massimo B.
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Blackberry wrote:
I double checked and didn't see a rice field on your play-by-web game board, so the game would have ended already.

No, the end of game condition is correctly implemented. The game was locked yesterday but it has now been completed after I applied the fix mentioned in my previous post. I will edit my original message.
 
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Mike B
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Whooops!

I guess I played all my games (9) of Samurai wrong untill now!

Always just played untill every figure is off the board...
Didn't read the rule about the game ending after the 4th figure is lost due to a tie either...
 
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ackmondual
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MikeBwithoutadot wrote:
Whooops!

I guess I played all my games (9) of Samurai wrong untill now!

Always just played untill every figure is off the board...
Didn't read the rule about the game ending after the 4th figure is lost due to a tie either...


Well, the Klear Games implementation of Samurai does have an alternative rule that the game ends when ALL of the figures have been removed from that board, which makes for nice replayability, especially combined with the new, exclusive maps. However, I still prefer the classic rules stated in the book which you also just mentioned.

Oddly enough, this must be one of the shortest game instruction manuals out there that people still end up missing things or misinterpreting important details. The thing is 8 pages, but since half of that is in German, and half of the English portion describes scoring, go figure. As soon as people see some of the illustrations and realize how intuitive things are, ppl jump right in w/o reading into much else.
 
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Russ Williams
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ackmondual wrote:
Oddly enough, this must be one of the shortest game instruction manuals out there that people still end up missing things or misinterpreting important details.

Indeed!

Just 2 nights ago we played with the owner of the game, who'd forgotten that the game ends when one piece runs out, so was surprised when I ended the game by collecting the last of one type.

Also thanks to this thread I just learned that you are not required to play a piece without the Japanese symbol; we'd been playing that you have to. But I see that indeed the rules say only that you must play at least one piece. And it's possible that a player only has pieces with the Japanese symbol, so of course it wouldn't make sense to require that you must play a piece without the symbol... (Otherwise there might need to be a special case for this, and a rule about whether the player has to show his pieces to prove that he has no symbol-less pieces...)
 
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ackmondual
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Samurai » Forums » Rules
Re: All tokens played but game not finished yet
russ wrote:
Also thanks to this thread I just learned that you are not required to play a piece without the Japanese symbol; we'd been playing that you have to. But I see that indeed the rules say only that you must play at least one piece. And it's possible that a player only has pieces with the Japanese symbol, so of course it wouldn't make sense to require that you must play a piece without the symbol... (Otherwise there might need to be a special case for this, and a rule about whether the player has to show his pieces to prove that he has no symbol-less pieces...)
WOW! You certainly beat the 5/20 odds with a hand of 5 tokens! Yeah, usually it doesn't come up since it's the better move to play a normal/slow tile
 
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Russ Williams
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ackmondual wrote:
WOW! You certainly beat the 5/20 odds with a hand of 5 tokens!

But 5/20 means a 1/4 chance of this happening! It's actually not rare at all!

(Disclaimer: intentionally bad math for humorous effect. Do not try this at home.)
 
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ackmondual
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russ wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
WOW! You certainly beat the 5/20 odds with a hand of 5 tokens!

But 5/20 means a 1/4 chance of this happening! It's actually not rare at all!

(Disclaimer: intentionally bad math for humorous effect. Do not try this at home.)
I took a stat class back in college, so this got my limited "statistical juices" flowing.....

This would be a matter of "20 (combination) choose 5" which comes out to be 15,504. I don't remember the actual formula. My PDA has functions that does combinations and permeatations for within the calculator's statistics category so I just plugged in the numbers there.

1/15504 is some VERY damn small number

It would make me feel better if someone confirmed or corrected this though.
 
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Justin
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when your draw pool is depleted, your hand size begins to reduce. with a hand size of one, for example, you'd only need one symbol token to have nothing but them.
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Russ Williams
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ackmondual wrote:
This would be a matter of "20 (combination) choose 5" which comes out to be 15,504.

Right, but remember also that it's not simply a matter of drawing 5 random tiles, except on the first turn. (Unless you're playing with the rule where players select their starting hand!)

After that, a player decides which tiles to play, and then redraws, so a player could keep hoarding the special tiles to collect a large number if they wanted (not that this is necessarily a great strategy).

Eventually such a non-special-tile-playing player who has 4 special tiles at some point now has a 1/n chance of getting all 5 tiles when they replace the normal tile they did play (where n = number of their remaining tiles). Indeed by never playing a special tile, a player can guarantee that they will eventually hold all 5 of them (unless the game ends before they've drawn all their tiles!) So estimating the "real" probability of the situation occurring in a real game is not so simple...
 
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ackmondual
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^^

yep. I forgot this is probability withOUT replacement
 
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