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Sean Who Was Paul
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War At Sea » Forums » Reviews
Jutland in the Second World War
War at Sea is a game covering the Battle of the Atlantic and the contest for the Mediterranean Sea during World War II. It belongs to a long line of introductory World War II games, save this one is naval instead of land oriented.

Gameplay (10 out of 30): You command either the Axis or Allied navies that struggle for the European sea lanes, which are divided into six broad areas that you fight over. Each turn covers nine months, and at the end of the turn you see who controls which sea area and draw victory points from that area, with the Axis getting more points because it is harder for there outnumbered navies to get points and because the seas are the lifeblood of the Allied war effort.

The Map:


Sounds simple enough, and accurate, but soon the game dives into fantasy land as it resembles World War I more than its own subject. For one the British fleet can cover every naval area (accurate) and by covering the North Sea on turn one they bottle up the German fleet if it has chosen to remain in port and await reinforcements. No commerce raiding by the Graf Spee or her sisters will ever happen, as the German fleet will soon be trapped in port and must come out to fight the British in the North Sea to break the blockade, because if they don't break the blockade then it is curtains for Jerry. Sounds like Jutland!

North Sea blockade underway:


Can this fate be avoided? On turn one the fleet can either refight Jutland coming out of the gate, or spread out over the Atlantic, cause some havoc and then fight Jutland as your own reinforcements become bottled up. You could run to France, but that port is only open on turns 2-6, so you still have to fight for the North Sea in the future. Basing the German fleet in Norway causes a rules complication. On one hand it is an Axis port, but it gives no indication of having repair points. Shortly after I put this review up I was informed that most consider Norway an extension of Germany, giving you a better shot at avoiding Jutland. This doesn't end my main problems with the game, but it does improve it slightly. Among the best bets to avoid Jutland is if the u-boats cause enough havoc and draw British ship away, which is a big if because you will be at the mercy of the dice.

I'm correcting my original take on the amount of dice rolling in this game. I don't think it is the amount as much as it is the limited options. I'm not scared of dice, and I think luckless and highly abstracted combat, the kind euro people drool over, is dull and highly unrealistic (doesn't capture the chaos of war). Yet in the case of War at Sea, where there are not a lot of options on where to move and a high chance you'll be fighting over the North and Barrents Sea, it comes down to who rolls better. Unless your opponent is an imbecile of course.

Components (3 out of 10): I like the big counters which are legible and feature the silhouette of the ship. The map is absolutely hideous, a mass of ugly splotches a la 1970s color dyes.

The Counters:


Originality (4 out of 5): I'm no expert on the old Avalon Hill titles, but I'm under the impression this was one of the first strategic naval games on the subject so for treading new ground I give it some respect.

Historical Quality (0 out of 5): In my gameplay section I noted how War at Sea easily turn into Jutland, but another a big problem is that both sides don't gain points for not losing ships, so each power will keep committing their forces to bloody naval battles that make anything in the Pacific War look like a session of Battleship. This fact flies in the face of keeping a fleet in being, or at least hoarding your forces because battleships don't just sprout out of the ground. By turn five both navies will have taken heavy losses, and yet be ready for more carnage. In my last session by game's end the Royal navy had lost 12 battleships, and the German fleet ceased to exist. Also you won't be pursuing much of a historical strategy, especially as the Germans where you seek Jutland and pray that the dice spare your u-boats. And by the way, Allied anti-submarine warfare is just as effective in 1939 as it was in 1944! With all this evidence War at Sea warrants a zero.

Overall (17 out of 50): I got this for a bargain, and I'm glad I didn't pay much for it. I'm not opposed to simpler games. I dig them but here it goes from simple to historical insult and I'm not going to take it. Unless you don't mind this silly take on World War II and love the nostalgia factor then I say to the rest STAY AWAY FROM WAR AT SEA! Ignore this title and crack out Bloody Kasserine, Leningrad or Red Vengeance, as these titles are not a total affront to history.

Final Note:
The box contains some truly ludicrous and humorous advertising lines:

"WAR AT SEA...designed to introduce newcomers to the fastest growing hobby today - simulation gaming!" - True then but funny in retrospect.

"WAR AT SEA contains no chance cards, spinners, or random luck elements." - False advertising. Maybe Bush played this game before he sent us to Iraq?

"Who knows...YOU might have been a great commander if only you had been given the chance." - Sounds like the beginning of a "I could have been a contender" style speech.

"Begin a lifetime of pleasure! Begin with WAR AR SEA" - Just don't begin with War at Sea
Last edited on 2008-04-02 13:53:58 CST (Total Number of Edits: 10)
James Lowry
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A couple notes:
I'm pretty sure that Norway is not considered a separate staging area from Germany. My copy's a few hundred miles away, but check the rules again, and note that Norway is not separately marked on the map (i.e., with a name). The real point there is that the Germans have to force the RN to cover the Barents, which is not easily done with lots of slow ships and speed rolls--and no Russian port for the first two turns. Don't forget that there is no control at the beginning of the game, and the Germans can send speedy ships out into the North/South Atlantic and then attempt to contact oilers to stay out there even when the cordon has gone up.

Also, ever since the 70's, detractors complain about the dice, and proponents say there's so many that it all evens out. I've seen games with lots of dice where the die rolls rule, but this title (and Victory in the Pacific) don't suffer from it nearly as much as other dice-heavy systems. I'm not sure why, but the results seem to stay within the odds far better than some others. It may be because of the extra roll for damage.

And yes, this was one of the first strategic games of naval warfare, and probably the first in the Atlantic. Of course, it's a game of the war in the Atlantic. Playability, not realism was definitely on John Edward's mind with this design.

It's not a bad game, and certainly was well worth AH reprinting from the original Jedko edition. I personally give it many kudos for being the jumping off point for the excellent Victory in the Pacific.

And I did begin with War at Sea. :D
Sean Who Was Paul
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Quote:
A couple notes:
I'm pretty sure that Norway is not considered a separate staging area from Germany. My copy's a few hundred miles away, but check the rules again, and note that Norway is not separately marked on the map (i.e., with a name). The real point there is that the Germans have to force the RN to cover the Barents, which is not easily done with lots of slow ships and speed rolls--and no Russian port for the first two turns. Don't forget that there is no control at the beginning of the game, and the Germans can send speedy ships out into the North/South Atlantic and then attempt to contact oilers to stay out there even when the cordon has gone up.


I didn't think of Norway that way, so I have to adjust the review. The British ships not being speedy enough to cover the Barents can be a real problem for the RN, although it wasn't in my session I can easily see it being so.


Quote:
And yes, this was one of the first strategic games of naval warfare, and probably the first in the Atlantic. Of course, it's a game of the war in the Atlantic. Playability, not realism was definitely on John Edward's mind with this design.


Like I said I think too much realism was sacrificed, but I am interested in playing Victory in the Pacific.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply and defense of the game.
Last edited on 2008-04-01 13:46:20 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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:D "Rindis" is correct about "Norway/Germany", while you are also correct with your assumption regarding the "Royal Navy" and their 'Speed Rolls' when they attempt to cover the "Barents Sea Zone." This was quite popular to the extent that an expansion was created for it with this here: War at Sea 2 and there is even the latest version for it all War at Sea, with yet another "plastic counters" version that was produced by some company in the mid 1980s, and sorry, but I don't recollect just WHO this were right now. You're fortunate to have obtained this at a greatly reduced COST, when you factor in what they're asking for it now in comparable $$$.
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simon thornton
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As much as I am an admirer of Gittes reviews and always read them avidly I really do think a misunderstanding of the Rules and a single play has caused a slightly skewed review and caused Paul to miss the finer points of the game.

Note I have always treated Norway as a separate area but I dont think that has impacted on the game much.

Quote:
. On one hand it is an Axis port, but it gives no indication of having supply points. Shortly after I put this review up I was informed that most consider Norway an extension of Germany, giving you a better shot at avoiding Jutland. This doesn't end my problem with the game, but it does improve it slightly. Among the best bets to avoid Jutland is if the u-boats cause enough havoc, which is a big if because of the other problem with this game: it is dice fest


A few points. There are no supply rules in the game because of the scale so no need to worry about supply points which aren t mentioned anywhere in the rules as I recall, but anyway. There is a nothing to stop the Germans shifting their entire navy to Norway or spread a few ships to France as well. A good German player will only use Germany and the restrictions that brings if he has any damaged ships. This causes a lot of tension in the game as the UK has to keep control of the north sea but has to still spread his fleet thinly.Weaken North sea too much to 'garrison ' outlying seas and the Germans can seize the north sea back.

It is a fine game and no it should not be taken under any circumstances taken to be a simulation . And strangely enough despite the mass dice rolling I dont think I ever won or lost a game and felt i was 'unlucky' probably because there is so much it evens out.

I strongly recommend you go back and give it a few more games as it is quick (1 1/2 hours) and you ll hopefully begin to appreciate some of the more subtle strategies. And do try VitP as it is a step up in complexity but not necessarily any more enjoyable.
Last edited on 2008-04-01 14:56:32 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Sean Who Was Paul
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Thanks for the input Simon and glad you like most of my reviews. For the record this is based on two plays. A learning session back in February and a return to game yesterday.

I meant repair points, not supply points. I fixed it in the review.

While I now see that Jutland can be avoided in the North Sea, my big problems with the game remain the massive naval battles, the terrifically high battle losses, the lack of just enough chrome like Anti submarine abilities, and to a lesser degree the components. When playing the game it felt like World War I with the Mediterranean tacked on, instead of World War II with commerce raiding and sporadic but fierce surface battles.
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I'll have to go and read your other reviews, but accounting for the (understandable) mistake, this one is certainly good.

I will also point out that this was probably the game that produced the most variants from the second half of the '70s. (There are earlier ones that would beat it, but they have the advantage of there not being any other choices to monkey with.) I can recall one that introduced the French navy, and one that introduced the eastern Med, Alexandria, the Black Sea and the Russian Black Sea squadron, and I know there were other variations on the theme. (And then you get into the later revisions like War at Sea II that Grognads mentions.) Oh, and there was an article that ripped apart the factors on several ships.

So, I'd say that War at Sea was always a game that was perceived as a fun time, but with chronic problems that kept everyone tinkering with it. ;)
Randy Dreger
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Who threw up on the board? :gulp: I gotta lie down...
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I have to disagree with some of the assumptions on this review. I appreciate that Paul didn't like the game, but that is his call. I do quite like it as a simple, fun game that I haven't played for a long while, but that is not my concern here.

I believe that Paul has approached the subject matter of the game itself and its premise from the wrong stand point. To use Jutland as part of the theme of the whole article is, in my opinion, wrong and misleading. War at Sea represents the WWII naval conflict in the Western theatre and the aims and aspirations of Hitler's navy were very different from those of the Kaiser's navy.

From the launch of the Deadnought in 1906 the major naval powers of the world at that time (UK and Germany and to a lesser degree USA and Japan), engaged in a ship building race to achieve, what was hoped to be, supremacy at sea. Britain was not easily discouraged from its long held naval sovereignty and with a lot of extravagent spending and some over-zealous officiousness managed to maintain its premier position, in numbers if not in quality. Germany's only hope throughout the 4 years of conflict was to attempt to destroy the Royal Navy piecemeal, as a straight confrontation (a la Jutland) could have been (and should have been) a costly disaster. However, the German navy during WWI was an efficient fighting force that more than held its own in a number of conflicts.

Hitler was fully aware from very early days that the new German navy of 1933 onward would never be able to meet the Royal Navy in numbers toe to toe and win. Yes, Germany could build bigger, better and stronger ships individually, but it would never come close to the Royal Navy in sheer numbers. The Kreigsmarine in WWII had to follow a different route and that was to disrupt the seas, in other words the very life-blood of Great Britain. Ruling the seas would never happen, but if enough interference could be established, then the maritime trade upon which the British Empire depended could be broken.

I agree that War at Sea allows the Kreigsmarine to sail en masse and duke it out with the Royal Navy, but that is the quick way to lose the game in the first couple of turns, unless you get really lucky with the dice. The game reflects the thinking of the Germans in WWII by forcing them to accept that a slugfest is not an option, but specific raids and limited combat on their terms may gain them enough areas and points to achieve their objective (win the game).

Fully accept your critique of the game Paul, but I feel that any reference to a Jutland approach is misleading.

My 2 cents are that I like the game and think it's a good intro to VITP. But it is not just a trainer for VITP, it's worth a look, even at this great age!
Last edited on 2008-04-02 09:34:15 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Sean Who Was Paul
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Thanks for the thoughtful and respectful reply.

As an added historical note the German navy was supposed to be ready to fight the British in 1945. Raeder was opposed to Hitler's aggressive foreign policy because it would start a war before his navy was ready. I can't quote him precisely but when war began with France and Britain he said all the navy could do was die with honor. All things considered the German navy in WWII did a lot with very little.

In War at Sea I see the Germans selecting opportunistic surface battles as they try to gain control of enough of the seas, because otherwise they will lose. Once again this flies in the face of history. I know, people say this is a game first, and I understand that, but in this case I don't see enough history in it for me to excuse this title.
Last edited on 2008-04-08 19:46:34 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Sean Who Was Paul
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I changed my thoughts on dice in this game. It is not a question of dice, but rather limited options that make you rely upon them to win against a smart opponent.
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It does appear that several rules have been missed or misunderstood.

To name 2.

1. The Germans do not actually have to fight Jutland to "break the blockade." They deny the British control over any area where they have surviving UBoats at the end of the turn. The ready German tactic was to not commit any Uboats until you had accumulated several, then put one or 2 in areas the British were trying to control with just one or 2 ships, and put a stack in a sea zone you definitely wanted to deny control of. Yes, you have to endure the ASW rolls, but with 4 or 5 uboats you have a good chance of some surviving-- and then the North Sea suddenly is not British controlled.

2. On those speed rolls, remember, if you DON'T make it successfully, your ship can still go to the far-away port. It's just not in action that particular turn. So it was fairly easy for the British player to elect a couple slow battleships that would just "stay" on Barents duty. The 4-4-4s were popular for this, as they had a pretty good chance of succeeding and the same pretty good chance of coming back if you wanted them elsewhere.

The other item not mentioned in the review was that we always played the game with the British ships hidden-- placed face down before the German move. Was that a stack of BBs or CAs? Only one way to find out. It made life harder for the Germans, and some folks thought it was hard enough already, but we greatly enjoyed the game that way.

Prior to the expansion of the Med into 2 sea zones, we also made it worth more VPs to the Axis if they controlled in a sequential number of turns (we tried 3 usually). This made it more costly for the Brits to use the "abandon the Med" strategy, which was pretty effective in game turns (but of course, rather silly in historic ones.)

This was a fine, wonderful game to play in its day.
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Quote:
1. The Germans do not actually have to fight Jutland to "break the blockade." They deny the British control over any area where they have surviving UBoats at the end of the turn. The ready German tactic was to not commit any Uboats until you had accumulated several, then put one or 2 in areas the British were trying to control with just one or 2 ships, and put a stack in a sea zone you definitely wanted to deny control of. Yes, you have to endure the ASW rolls, but with 4 or 5 uboats you have a good chance of some surviving-- and then the North Sea suddenly is not British controlled.


I know this and in both sessions the u-boats hurt the British but not nearly enough due to some die rolls and bad German u-boat placement in one turn. Plus in this strategy you once again commit a mass of German surface vessels to take back a sea zone, which is too unhistorical. I already noted that Jutland can be avoided, but you still end up fighting massive surface actions reminiscent of Jutland.

Quote:
2. On those speed rolls, remember, if you DON'T make it successfully, your ship can still go to the far-away port. It's just not in action that particular turn. So it was fairly easy for the British player to elect a couple slow battleships that would just "stay" on Barents duty. The 4-4-4s were popular for this, as they had a pretty good chance of succeeding and the same pretty good chance of coming back if you wanted them elsewhere.


Didn't note this because it didn't seem too important to what I was getting at.

Quote:
The other item not mentioned in the review was that we always played the game with the British ships hidden-- placed face down before the German move. Was that a stack of BBs or CAs? Only one way to find out. It made life harder for the Germans, and some folks thought it was hard enough already, but we greatly enjoyed the game that way.


Hard to mention a house rule in a review like mine. If it was included in later versions of the game it wasn't included in mine.
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Gittes, I hope you'll give this one another try.

I've only played about 5-6 games of this title and it gets better with each play. Both sides play very differently and I tend to enjoy assymetrical games.

Sure, it's not historical, but in the last 3 games I did chase the Bismarck around after the Hood went down.

Loads of dicey fun.

Just as a note, I've got the L2 remake of this game and components are really well done...which adds a lot to the game for me.
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I think I shall give it another go, and write up a second review. Everyone's impassioned defense of this game is almost inspiring.
Last edited on 2008-04-02 20:47:12 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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I agree. You should reread the rules and give it another go. It is a really fun wargame to play when you only have about two hours to spend.
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Quote:
Quote:
The other item not mentioned in the review was that we always played the game with the British ships hidden-- placed face down before the German move. Was that a stack of BBs or CAs? Only one way to find out. It made life harder for the Germans, and some folks thought it was hard enough already, but we greatly enjoyed the game that way.



Quote:
Hard to mention a house rule in a review like mine. If it was included in later versions of the game it wasn't included in mine.





It was not a house rule-- it was an optional rule in the original game, printed in the rules.
Last edited on 2008-04-06 09:31:40 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Sean Who Was Paul
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Found it under the optional rules. Sorry.
Daniel Blumentritt
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When playing the game it felt like World War I with the Mediterranean tacked on, instead of World War II with commerce raiding and sporadic but fierce surface battle


True, but to be fair, the rules did say that the game wasn't trying to model the actual WW2 of commerce raiding, it was concocting a scenario where the Germans used their surface fleet much more aggressively.
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