geek
The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Rules | Subscriptions | Bookmarks | Search | Account | Moderators
Michael Bachelor
United States

Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
BoardGameGeek » Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming
The ONE thing (ok TWO things) that could make Euros better for me...
To let you all know where I am coming from..

I enjoy playing many of the Euros my gaming group has introduced me to. I find some of the games well balanced, with little in the way of randomess that might turn a game on it's heels. Many of them encourage long range planning or have multiple strategies that one can attempt during subsequent games. All of these things are what I look for and enjoy in a game.

However, like many people here I began my serious enjoyment of boardgames in the heyday of Avalon hill and SPI, playing games like Dune, Civilization, and I played many of the comsims, even though I was not the best at military strategy and usually got my butt kicked. These games had theme and conflict in them, which is something I enjoyed, but I can certainly understand why they would not be to everyone's taste. I also enjoyed some of the old games like Clue, which I think had more universal appeal.

Then of course came settlers and a the wave of Euros. I caught the settlers wave, but missed the big rise in boardgames as I bought a house and started a family and some of my best game friends moved out of town. In the last year I have met people in a local game group and have been introduced to a LOT of the games I have missed in the last 10 years. OK - enough of the Bio - it's not essential, but I think it helps to understand my POV, and to put my comments in context.



There was a time in my game group a few months ago when I played Cuba, Guatemala Café, Taj Mahal and Notre Dame (among others) within the space of 2 months (I list them in order of enjoyment BTW - Did not care much for TM and ND). As is typical for many Euros I watched the token move around the edge of the board, noting the Victory points, and I started to think about how VP's seem so abstract to me sometimes. It's hard to get excited sometimes about POINTS, especially when so many games use the idea. I could not help feel that a little GREED, a little bit of the profit motive, a little bit of COLD HARD CASH would increase my interest in the games. What is so wrong with being an unrepentant capitalist? Money is already used as a resource in many Euros, it would not take much to alter the game a little so that one gets a return on investment instead of getting VP's.



The intellectual part of me says "It's all the same thing! - it's just a way of keeping score". But the less rational part misses money as an objective in some of the games. I like holding it, I like stacking it in my playspace, I like counting it. I like watching the stack increase as a game progresses. You ever try to wave around a stack of Victory points to intimidate or lord over your opponents? It's very unsatisfying.

It does not even have to be money; Give me trophies of some kind, anything other than just POINTS on the board! If you can't do that, then give me a goal, something to strive for other than points. I think this is why Power Grid has been one of my favorite Euros so far. Money is by far the biggest, most important resource in the game, and there is a clear goal to strive for. It definitely fills in some of the things I find lacking in some other games, and gives me a sense of theme and accomplishment. Part of me says it would not take much to make some of the Eros feel more thematic and help me enjoy them a lot more.

That's what would make me enjoy some games more. Give me some money, give me a goal. I would also say give me the ability to really screw over the opposing player better, but that's a completely different topic dealing with game design..
Erik D
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
The Spinal Tap video alone is worth the thumb.

I've recently found the term "victory points" amusing since (a) my fiancee hates the term, and (b) simply "points" would suffice. In a game of baseball, do we call them Victory Runs? We totally should.

My question for you is do you like abstracts? I'd like to think Euros are abstracts that are inspired by a theme (nycavri's Penguin Soccer, though not a Euro, was created via this process).

Dave Wilson
United States
Pleasanton
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
040506070809
mbmbmbmbmb
erak wrote:
I've recently found the term "victory points" amusing since (a) my fiancee hates the term, and (b) simply "points" would suffice.


Sometimes you need to distinguish victory points from, say, action points, like in Tikal.
Erik D
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
daw65 wrote:
erak wrote:
I've recently found the term "victory points" amusing since (a) my fiancee hates the term, and (b) simply "points" would suffice.


Sometimes you need to distinguish victory points from, say, action points, like in Tikal.


To which we could simply call "actions".
Jason Spears
United States
Saint Joseph
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
0506070809
mbmbmbmbmb
erak wrote:
daw65 wrote:
erak wrote:
I've recently found the term "victory points" amusing since (a) my fiancee hates the term, and (b) simply "points" would suffice.


Sometimes you need to distinguish victory points from, say, action points, like in Tikal.


To which we could simply call "actions".

So you get 10 "actions" each turn and it takes 3 "actions" to exchange a treasure with another player? Meh, give me action points. I love 'em.
pronoblem
United States
Holyoke
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
0506070809
mbmbmbmbmb
erak wrote:
To which we could simply call "actions".


Not quite... there's actions and the actions cost a certain number of "points". 1 to move, 2 to dig, 3 for treasure dig 3 for treasure swap, 5 to camp, 5 to lay claim, etc. You have 6 possible actions and 10 "points" to spend on those action costs.
J C Lawrence
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
0405060708
erak wrote:
I've recently found the term "victory points" amusing since (a) my fiancee hates the term, and (b) simply "points" would suffice. In a game of baseball, do we call them Victory Runs? We totally should.


Victory Points as a term came around both via literal translation from the German and the fact that some games have multiple different types of points and there's a need to differentiate among them. All points are not victory points.
Richard Johnson
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
mbtigger wrote:
The intellectual part of me says "It's all the same thing! - it's just a way of keeping score". But the less rational part misses money as an objective in some of the games. I like holding it, I like stacking it in my playspace, I like counting it. I like watching the stack increase as a game progresses. You ever try to wave around a stack of Victory points to intimidate or lord over your opponents? It's very unsatisfying.


You mean you're not turning your victory points into the Victory Point store? I already have enough VP's to get a Gameboy!
James Ludlow
United States
Saint Louis Park
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
mbtigger wrote:
It's hard to get excited sometimes about POINTS, especially when so many games use the idea. I could not help feel that a little GREED, a little bit of the profit motive, a little bit of COLD HARD CASH would increase my interest in the games. What is so wrong with being an unrepentant capitalist? Money is already used as a resource in many Euros, it would not take much to alter the game a little so that one gets a return on investment instead of getting VP's.


Econ and train games would fill your desire for cash-as-win-condition and returns on investment. It's hard to tell if you'd care for them at all though, since your only rated game is RoboRally.

Tell a bit more about what you enjoy, and I'd sure that people can come up with suggestions.
Michael Bachelor
United States

Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
jdludlow wrote:

Econ and train games would fill your desire for cash-as-win-condition and returns on investment. It's hard to tell if you'd care for them at all though, since your only rated game is RoboRally.

Tell a bit more about what you enjoy, and I'd sure that people can come up with suggestions.


It's not that I dislike or am not having fun with the games my group enjoys - it's just that I find points on a track a little less emotionally satisfying that reaching a goal or earning great flipping wads of cash. I would rather play a well designed game with VP's than a poor game that uses cash.

I like train games, and I own several - And I like Acquire and a couple of the other suggested games. I know I should sit back and rate my other games, but I find it hard to put them in context in comparison with other games. Expecially since many games with our game group I have played only once or twice, and it is very hard for me to rate a game because my enjoyment is dependent on my understanding of the game, the context it is played in. I might have to play a game 2 or three times before I can decide how well I like it.


OH! - How much is it for an I-pod Cuzzle?
J C Lawrence
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
0405060708
mbtigger wrote:
It's not that I dislike or am not having fun with the games my group enjoys - it's just that I find points on a track a little less emotionally satisfying that reaching a goal or earning great flipping wads of cash. I would rather play a well designed game with VP's than a poor game that uses cash.


So just tell yourself that the points track is actually a money track. Every point you get is a money unit.
Last edited on 2008-04-15 15:43:15 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Ken Agress
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmbmb
Sounds more to me like you've an issue with the games that you're playing thematically than the scoring mechanism. You don't want to gain prestige, build a civ, or gain influence in India. You want economic games that have direct monetary activity. You've played games that don't use that as a mechanism, and are therefore finding them unsatisfying.

So I'll second Balthus Dire's list of games above. It's not the VP you don't like - you don't like what you're actually doing in the game.
Greg Jones
United States

California
flag msg tools
patron08
For games that have both money and victory points, you could easily make your own variant. Every time it says to get victory points, take the equivalent money instead. You might need an exchange rate other than 1:1 if this doesn't quite make sense. (For example a game might have an option to spend two money to get one victory point.)

I think the game won't be as good in a lot of cases. In these games, some times you have to make decisions that make tradeoffs between money and victory points. If they're the same, that challenge is removed. Or, maybe money will be too plentiful. Maybe money's supposed to be tight.
Greg Jones
United States

California
flag msg tools
patron08
perfalbion wrote:
Sounds more to me like you've an issue with the games that you're playing thematically than the scoring mechanism. You don't want to gain prestige, build a civ, or gain influence in India. You want economic games that have direct monetary activity. You've played games that don't use that as a mechanism, and are therefore finding them unsatisfying.

So I'll second Balthus Dire's list of games above. It's not the VP you don't like - you don't like what you're actually doing in the game.


Or maybe other themes that sound like something you'd actually want to do in real life would appeal. Like winning a race, or going on an expedition, or space travel.
alan beaumont
United Kingdom
LONDON
Unspecified
flag msg tools
daw65 wrote:
Sometimes you need to distinguish victory points from, say, action points, like in Tikal.


And this is why we call them veeps.:meeple:
Darren Hron
United States

Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0708
mbmbmbmbmb
Not that you are looking for other games, but El Capitán might work for you. Very Euro IMHO, but the "points" are money.
Maarten D. de Jong
Netherlands
Zaandam
flag msg tools
Avatar
clearclaw wrote:
So just tell yourself that the points track is actually a money track. Every point you get is a money unit.

Nonono. It's much better if the designer tells you that the points track is actually a money track. It's like cats, really. They'll always prefer drinking straight out of the faucet rather than from the bowl you filled for them moments earlier from the very same faucet.

Some people just don't like to be reminded they're actually doing an excercise in applied mathematics, I guess, for the entire argument the OP is one litany of 'I don't like abstractions in games, please hide these buggers so I don't even have to think about them to begin with'. I suppose there's a thesis in psychology in this observation somewhere.
It's Just A Ride
United States

Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron08
mbmbmb
The KEY thing that would help Euros.

Spinners.

Darilian
ackmondual
United States

Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron08
mbmbmbmbmb
They're not just points, they're victory points! Or in case of some games like Ra... fame points. But I digress, the "victory" and "fame" just goes towards the theme. Points are points, and I tell new players that we know that "victory points" and points are the same thing.

I suppose what would make "victory points" more valuable would be to have other types of points as well, such as "you suck-ass points" or something like that.
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
BoardGameGeek and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.