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Larry Pryor
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Ancient Battles Deluxe » Forums » Reviews
An old friend reimagined.
First review, so be gentle.

Ancient Battles Deluxe is is the updated version of Bill Bank's Ancients game released by Good Industries and 3W. One might even say that it's a reimagining of that game as the spirit of the rules are the same, but there are some differences in the implementation.

If I had to sum up this game it would be that it is to board wargaming what De Bellis Antiquitatis is to miniatures. It provides a fairly simple set of rules to recreate battles from the dawn of warfare to the introduction of gunpowder. (And ABD will actually cover some early gunpowder battles in future expansions.) This first set covers the battles of Kadesh, Leuctra, Chaeronea, Granicus, Legnano, Hattin, Arsouf and Bannockburn. The first expansion (Elephants at War) has already been announced and is scheduled to add 16 battles. One of the great things about the older game that I hope is soon implemented was the ability to play a simple campaign and build your own army. The set piece battles are interesting, but the ability to buy your own armies and fight those battles is where this system really takes on a life of it's own.

The game comes with 2 11x17" maps, 160 unit counters, 45 unit activation round counters and 58 round counters that represent leaders, command points and other markers, rules, player aid card and 8 cards listing the scenario information. The unit counters represent a scalable amount of men depending on the battle and have a good order and a disordered side.

Rather than give a complete breakdown of the turn order and play I'm going to go over those parts that were "reimagined". (I'm posting by memory right now and don't have access to the game.)

The first major change is in how units are activated. In the old game it was an IGO UGO style of movement. In ABD you dice for a number of command points and receive a bonus for certain leaders. You then use these command points to activate individual units or formations of units with a leader. Quiet a change and I've got to admit that I've liked so far. There are some real tough choices to be made when you've rolled poorly about where those precious command points are going to be used. I should also note that CPs can also be used to automatically rally an individual unit that is disordered or to roll for rallying of disordered units in a formation. They can also be used to move an enemy's disordered units once that army has panicked. And they are also used in a bidding process to attempt to seize the initiative during the initiative phase. Handy they are.

A minor change was also made to movement in that in the old game a unit could move in any of the 3 hexes in it's front and would rotate so that its rear would face the hex it just left. Not units spend 1 movement point to enter the hex directly in front of it and can rotate facing freely before it moves and again after it enters a hex.

The next major change came in combat. Gone are the odds based CRTs and the Missile Fire tables. Missile fire is now resolved by the defender rolling a d6 and adding modifiers for terrain or missile defense listed on its counter and the firing unit rolling a number of d6 equal to the arrow symbols on its counter. If the attacking unit rolls higher it disorders a good unit or destroys a disordered unit, otherwise no result. Melee occurs in it's own phase and players decide on whether to attack with an eligible unit or not. I'll admit that the new melee rules confused me on the first read through, but the next time the light bulb went off. Basically each unit in melee rolls 1d6 and modifies it based on terrain, which hexside it is being attacked through and certain leaders with a "+" rating. There's another modifier which is based on a comparison of the units combat strength (modified by leaders with a "x" rating) expressed as a ratio. For example if your combat strength is more than twice, but less than 3 times, your opponents then you'll receive a +2 on your d6. Once the dice are rolled and modifiers are taken into account a check of the chart determines the results. The new combat system took a little getting used to, but became second nature quickly. Right now I think I like it slightly more than the old one.

If you're looking for a good light wargame that can cover the wide period from the beginning of warfare to the introduction of gunpowder then this reimagined classic is what you're looking for. I'll leave it to others to determine how good of a simulation it is. I enjoy it and can't wait to get some of the chrome from the earlier incarnations reimagined as well.

Jens Hoppe
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Thanks for the review! I have a copy ordered myself which I am looking forward to.

Anyhow, here's a question: Two maps for eight scenarios - does it work in practice or does one feel that one is fighting over the same terrain every time?
Wrench. Screwdriver. Wrench. Would you guys make up my mind!
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I had the Black box version with green 8.5 x 11 maps. I printed out the 11x17 maps from the website and just because I could I printed them again on a wide format black and white printer at 36 x 48 inches. This photo shows all three map sizes/
Jens Hoppe
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Heh, those black & white maps are monstrous. :)
Larry Pryor
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jens_hoppe wrote:
Thanks for the review! I have a copy ordered myself which I am looking forward to.

Anyhow, here's a question: Two maps for eight scenarios - does it work in practice or does one feel that one is fighting over the same terrain every time?


Actually I've only solo played the Legnano scenario so I haven't run into map fatigue yet. And it probably should be mentioned that one of the maps is entirely clear terrain. I'm almost certain new maps are coming out in the expansions.
Mike Nagel
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There will definitely be new maps in the next few expansions (likely one, each) until all of the original maps from Ancients have been recreated. After that, we'll probably be creating original maps on an as-needed basis.
Brian Hurrel
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I recently purchased both Ancients I and II on eBay, and most likely will pick this up. I enlarged all of the maps to 11x17 as well. The originals are a bit small.

I'm also using a large 36" x "45 felt hex map to create a minis version of Bannockburn. My minis are actually card stock printouts of paper soldiers from Junior Generals, but with 4 colorful English Knights and 8 colorful Scottish spearmen per counter, the effect is actually fairly nice. Just using cardstock streems, model RR trees, and foam hills---not impressive to a real minis person, but still kind of cool. (I tell my wife, rather unconvincingly, that I am spending so much time on this for my young son's benefit)

I'm actually hoping to use this in my History class next year, especially when the Early Gunpowder Age material comes out.

As a die-hard map and counter guy, I was never much into minis outside of RPGs, and some might not consider paper soldiers minis, but the fact is that if the units are proportional, as in this Bannockburn set-up where each mini equals 250 men, you get a real appreciation for how badly outnumbered the Scots were.

I'm hoping to get some 6mm units for an even more impressive line-up.

Suffice it to say, I love this game system for its simplicity, it's ability to represent such a vast array of battles, and for allowing so much emphasis on maneuver and key positioning of leaders.

Unlike 90% of games I have owned, I can actually get friends to play this with:)
bevan ferreira


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One thing I have to say: I don't believe that the new combat system is much of an improvement on the old, and in some cases the results are simply bizarre.

An updated CRT would probably have been a better choice, but given that the prevailing fashion today seems to be that CRT's are "bad" (no data to back that up, just seems to be the current rage) Mike Nagel has done an amazing job of converting what was a ratio-based system into a 1d6 comparison system. Of course the ratio creeps back in as a modifier in what is easily twice the brain/memory requirements of the CRT of old!

I just believe the whole thing could have been better with a newer CRT.
David Conklin
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How does this game compare to Command & Colors: Ancients? They look very similar...
Mike Windsor
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Quote:
And it probably should be mentioned that one of the maps is entirely clear terrain.


This is actually a good thing. Many ancient battles were fought in relatively flat plains for several reasons. The Middle East is filled with deserts and arid plains. Much of the valuable farmland and the settlements were in flat river vallies (the Greeks knew that they didn't have to fight in the hills or mountains, they could just rampage in their opponents' farmland and force their opponent to come to them). Also, many of the armies simply preferred to fight on level ground. As late as the American Civil War, leaders often preferred to line their troops up in front of a line of trees, rather than scatter the troops among the trees.

I have two minor complaints about the game:

First, the basic game doesn't come with a lot of scenarios. This is not as bad as it would seem, however. If you go to the Ancient Battles Deluxe or the old Ancients forum on ConSimWorld, there are a number of scenarios from Ancients that have been adapted to the newer game.

Second, I really wish there were some "desert" maps that used tan as the open terrain color instead of green. Just feels odd fighting a desert battle on a green map.
Mike Nagel
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Mike,

What goes into a game is really a question of economics. In order to balance the components going into the game and its price, we had to limit the game to eight scenarios. Still, I think you'll find that this is a lot more than most other games.

Each expansion will add more units types and maps to the series and more and more scenarios. We've got quite a few to work with ... some you've seen before in the "classic" game along with lots of new ones.

I don't think that printing a "desert" map is out of the question. I'm working closely with Alan Emrich at Victory Point Games to come up with all kinds of cool expansion possibilities, just like that one! :-)

-- MPN
Mike Nagel
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David,

ABD varies significantly from CC:A (which, btw, is one of my all time favorite games!).

First of all, there is no card play which gives players some better (albeit not complete) control over what goes on during a battle.

Command and Control is established through the use of a random number of orders that can be issued each turn. Orders are issued on an alternating basis between players, so there's a constant ebb-and-flow of units during the battle. The combat system requires more calculation than that in CC:A, but does do without the use of a CRT. I believe that on the whole, an ABD scenario can be completed more quickly than a CC:A battle (barring insanely bad die rolls).

Complexity-wise, I'd put ABD a notch below CC:A, with the exception of the combat system, which is a notch above.

Both are excellent games (if I may say so ... ) that approach Ancient combat with quick-playing, fun systems.

-- MPN
Mike Windsor
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By the way, I prefer the ABD command and control system over that of CC:A. In ABD, I have the option to use my orders to engage in actions where I want to engage in actions. That way, if I want to push forward in the center, I can use all of my orders to keep the momentum as long as possible, the rest of the battlefield be damned. In CC:A (which I like a lot), I find that there can be some odd situations because of the command cards. I'd get my heavy troops moving forward, only to spend a few turns with no cards to keep them moving. I will grant that this can reflect "real world" situations, but at times it really feels artificial.
Kenneth Wofford
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jens_hoppe wrote:
Thanks for the review! I have a copy ordered myself which I am looking forward to.

Anyhow, here's a question: Two maps for eight scenarios - does it work in practice or does one feel that one is fighting over the same terrain every time?


Not particularly. Since the battles are linear and the forces are constrained (Mike seems to have read Sabin's Lost Battles book and taken to heart his suggested 20 unit per side limit) you can use different portions of the maps to represent different battlefields. Unlike a WWII game where units shuttle all over the map, units in ABD are pretty constrained once they lock up with the enemy.
bevan ferreira


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David

It's a bit late, but the short answer is this game doesn't compare to CC:A at all. They are completely different representations of the same type of thing. Kinda like comparing a Picasso to a Da Vinci.

The components are just the beginning. CC:A has far more in the looks and feel department, but comes in at a whopping price tag for all that flavour (especially if you pick up the expansions). CC:A is a huge game compared to ABD. The latter can easily be stored in a clear plastic envelope in your desk. CC:A needs a closet all to itself.

Then there's the gameplay. CC:A emphasises more a combined arms meets total chaos approach. Often you find yourself having to totally readjust your tactics on the spur of the moment. ABD appears to play more like a general's game. You have a fair bit more say over the tempo and location of the action in ABD, but you still have a tremendous amount of choice in when and how you activate, but the opponent isalways getting in your way.

Bottom line: CC:A uses cards, ABD uses dice to generate a total level of command for the turn. ABD is more of an IGO-UGO in an ever changing seuence. ABD is closer to Clash for a Continent than Commands and Colors, but it is well worth checking out. You can't beat the price!
Last edited on 2009-02-28 02:40:49 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Brad
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broadsword wrote:
David

It's a bit late, but the short answer is this game doesn't compare to CC:A at all. They are completely different representations of the same type of thing. Kinda like comparing a Picasso to a Da Vinci.


High praise indeed for both of the games! Just bought a copy of DBA with the expansions, but have been a long time player of CC:A
Tony Kerstan
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I've got Ancients I and II, but I think I may have to look at picking up this little gem. So far I've been very impressed with Victory Point Games - small is indeed beautiful!
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