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Imperial
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Imperial - A Fatal Flaw keeps me from liking this one
This is my first review, so I fully expect I'm going to leave something out. I've now played this game twice and, after last night's play, was able to confirm my feelings on this game. Frankly, I just don't like it. I want to like it. I should like it. It's got investing mixed with some area acquisition, but in the end, it just fails for me. My two plays: 1) 6 players with the Investor card 2) 4 players without the Investor card I'm going to leave out the explanation of the rules, since it's been done by many other reviewers better than I could. Basically, the goal of the game is to earn the most money and you do that, primarily, by owning bonds in the countries that have best managed to balance area acquisition, troops, and tax generation. If you own the most worth in bonds for a country, you control that countries actions until someone else controls more than you. It is possible to have control of no countries. There's more to the game than this, but that's the rough gist of it. And now the fatal flaw for me...It's just not fun to not have control of a country, particularly if you aren't able to earn money and reacquire control of one. The mechanics of the game seem to set up situations, particularly without the Investor card (which gives $2,000 to the person with it when it activates) where a person can have control of no countries and not be making enough money to acquire control of one from the players who currently control them. At that point, that player can literally get up, push in their chair, and go find another game, read a book, take a nap, etc, because getting back into the game at that point is nearly impossible. My last play, I was at this point 2/3 of the way through the game and had to sit there for the next hour watching as people moved bits around and saying "pass" since I neither had nor could acquire money unless the other players wished to allow me (and themselves) to. However, since they were all able to get some minor amounts of money coming to them via bonuses during taxation, they had no reason, for the most part, to hit investor on the rondel. I saw this happen to a degree in my first game as well. Once one player had no countries, he pretty much could only sit there and try to scrimp together money and try desperately to retake a country just to have SOMETHING to do. Honestly, I've never been overly fannatical of games where people get knocked out. I like a few ( Samurai Swords, for one), but for the most part, I dislike when people get knocked out of games because then they have to sit and watch. The nice thing, though, is if at a game convention or game night, there are others around to play something else. However, in Imperial, something even worse happens. Players don't get knocked out, but don't have the ability to do much-to-anything either and that, to me, is FAR worse. Sitting there for an hour watching other people play, but not being able to go do something else on the off chance that someone might toss you a bone and let you back in the game a little is just problematic to me. It's something that could've been fixed by perhaps letting a player trade down their bond and get back some money from the country's bank, at least giving the player some money they could attempt to use and alter their strategy to get back in the game. Instead, a player in the situation just ends up in the "No-Fun zone," likely until the game is over. As I said earlier, I REALLY wanted to like this game. Everything, from the theme to the bits is excellent. The rondel mechanic is outstanding. In the end, though, I just don't because of the game's Achilles heel. I'll probably try this game again in the future, hoping that this time I won't see that issue pop up, but with a game that's this unforgiving and knowing that more time in the "no-fun zone" is the punishment that awaits, I'm not sure how fast I'm going to want to volunteer to play again. For me, a 5.5 out of 10.
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Skipping the investor phase is usually a bad decision...
Try the variant in which the country with enough money HAS to land in the investor phase if there's a player without country with investments in that nation. That should fix things quite easily.
In my games I never had do adopt this, though, since players with more than 1 country usually have a weaker hold on them, it only takes a few times around the table before the country-less player gets enough $$$.
A common early mistake in this game is to take a country's control too seriously. It's not who controls the most countries that is important, it's the one with most $$$ in the end.
Losing control of a country is only actually bad if the other player is going to use it to declare war on another country that you had investments in.
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gilby123 wrote: It's just not fun to not have control of a country, particularly if you aren't able to earn money and reacquire control of one. Several local players strive to end up without controlling a country and consider that not controlling a country is the most interesting way to play as they attempt to indirectly influence the course of the game through their investments rather than direct action. Several of our games have been won by players who never controlled a country during the entire game. Quote: The mechanics of the game seem to set up situations, particularly without the Investor card (which gives $2,000 to the person with it when it activates) where a person can have control of no countries and not be making enough money to acquire control of one from the players who currently control them. After 20-some games without the investor card I've only seen one game in which a player ended up not controlling a country when they didn't want that. Quote: At that point, that player can literally get up, push in their chair, and go find another game, read a book, take a nap, etc, because getting back into the game at that point is nearly impossible. This ignores the degree to which they can still significantly affect the game based on when and where they invest. This can be a potent force. Quote: However, since they were all able to get some minor amounts of money coming to them via bonuses during taxation, they had no reason, for the most part, to hit investor on the rondel. That's nuts. There are only two actions in the game that matter, Investor and Taxation, and the majority of a player's money will come from Investor. With good play Investor will be selected by every country in well over half of all rondel rotations.
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There's only a small bonus from increasing the taxable worth of a country... in reality the most money is made (and thus reinvested) by paying out for a country at Investor... I want countries to pay out, so I can buy more shares, to make more money.
The bonus taxes are important at the start of the game... getting a few extra dollars here can male or break your game, I've found. Players should be paying out regularly (in my book at least) to fund their own purchasers, so anyone going with no flag should have plenty of chances to buy more bonds (maybe never get control again, and that is a hard way to go). If people skip investor to often, their playing it differently to the way I do, and I could imagine getting locked out would be tedious.
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As with many other games, if groupthink takes hold and everyone plays poorly, Imperial can be no fun.
I have won the game while having control of no country for a large chunk of the game. I certainly was not without something to do at that point, as I had to keep track of which countries were likely to finish well and thus worth investment. Towards the end of the game I was able to make a significant amount of cash by scooping up the lower value bonds, which have the highest rate of return.
The important thing to remember, as someone else alluded to above, is that the game is about making money, not controlling countries.
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Gotta agree with others:
Play without the investor card, and play with less people. You shouldn't run into issues of no country then.
But yea, I don't know why it was released as a 6 person game with only 6 controllable countries...
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I will venture a guess that you are playing the game as a wargame. I have played with a couple serious wargamers and they hate, hate, hate Imperial. It is an understatement to say Imperial is "counter intuitive" for wargamers. The goal of the game is to rape the country's treasury that you are controlling. If you aren't controlling a country you want to be in a position to benefit from the treasury raid. Generally, you want your military to be destroyed, and retaining control of the territory you have conquered is a very short term goal. When playing with straight wargamers you will do well to invest in countries the wargamers are not controlling. Wargamers tend to get emotionally vested with doing well with "their" country instead of lining their own pockets. To reiterate the words of a wise man: Psauberer wrote:
The important thing to remember, as someone else alluded to above, is that the game is about making money, not controlling countries.
Last edited on 2008-06-19 17:35:22 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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I haven't ever played without the investor card, so I can't speak to that variant. But with the investor card, I simply can't envision a game unfolding the way you describe. No one is paying out at investor? Where is the money coming from? You simply can't make all that much from taxation. Has your group stumbled into a completely moronic groupthink? If no one is paying out, then all it would take is for one player to pay out his country and he should dominate the game, either by reinvesting in his own country or by taking control of others.
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Let me be the first to acknowledge that my previous comment didn't specifically address your dislike of the game.
I have played several games of Imperial with a game group in another town. In their games it is not uncommon for two people to not control countries, not want to control countries, and one or both will finish first or second.
I cannot envision the scenario you describe. With opponents playing the way you describe, I would win by a blowout. I still suspect you are playing with wargamers, but I further suspect you are making a minor rule mistake. No idea what it may be, but it may have dramatic ramifications.
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gilby123 wrote: It's just not fun to not have control of a country, particularly if you aren't able to earn money and reacquire control of one. You must not have used the designer's variant to address this situation: At the end of each Investor Phase, whether the country landed on Investor or passed over Investor on the Rondel, each player who didn't control a country at the start of the Investor Phase either takes $1M from the Bank or gets to issue one loan. This allows players without countries to accumulate cash until they're ready to issue a loan, usually to net them control of a country.
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I've played this 30 times or so, about 5 F2F and 25+ on BSW. I have never seen anyone not have control of any countries unless thats what they wanted to happen.
You should play it again and try to approach it differently. It is a great game, deserving of a second chance.
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To repeat others: Don't play with 6 players. This is fundamentally a 4 player game.
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gilby123 wrote: It's just not fun to not have control of a country, particularly if you aren't able to earn money and reacquire control of one. The mechanics of the game seem to set up situations, particularly without the Investor card (which gives $2,000 to the person with it when it activates) where a person can have control of no countries and not be making enough money to acquire control of one from the players who currently control them. At that point, that player can literally get up, push in their chair, and go find another game, read a book, take a nap, etc, because getting back into the game at that point is nearly impossible. [...] However, since they were all able to get some minor amounts of money coming to them via bonuses during taxation, they had no reason, for the most part, to hit investor on the rondel. Hm. The last time I played this I didn't control a country for most of the game, which meant that any time someone hit investor, I had more money that I could use to buy bonds in any country I wanted. I rather deliberately didn't give myself control of any countries for a long time, until I took over one that was about to get a big tax bonus. However, this did make me dependent on other people's Investor actions; I had to diversify my holdings to spread out the risks and benefits. I find it very odd that your play group wasn't hitting Investor often enough to make a non-controlling player competitive -- how did they get enough money to buy the bigger bonds? Did they get enough money to buy the bigger bonds? (I've only played this 2 or 3 times, but I seem to recall all the bonds in the good countries selling out before the end of the game.) It seems to me that the way to beat your groupthink would be to hit Investor early and often, and buy up all the cheap bonds when other players don't have money to compete with you. It's certainly possible to be taken out of this game, but not controlling a country shouldn't be related to that. (And, as I said, I've only played this game a few times, so take my advice with a huge grain of salt. I've only won once... and that was in a 4-player game, no Investor card, controlling no countries for the first 2/3 of the game.)
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D-Rider wrote: gilby123 wrote: It's just not fun to not have control of a country, particularly if you aren't able to earn money and reacquire control of one. [... Designer's variant ...] At the end of each Investor Phase, whether the country landed on Investor or passed over Investor on the Rondel, each player who didn't control a country at the start of the Investor Phase either takes $1M from the Bank or gets to issue one loan. I've never heard of loans in this game -- how do they work? Are they only used in games with the Investor card?
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D-Rider wrote: At the end of each Investor Phase, whether the country landed on Investor or passed over Investor on the Rondel, each player who didn't control a country at the start of the Investor Phase either takes $1M from the Bank or gets to issue one loan. This allows players without countries to accumulate cash until they're ready to issue a loan, usually to net them control of a country. The variant described and the reasoning for it are unnecessary.
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Koldfoot wrote: Let me be the first to acknowledge that my previous comment didn't specifically address your dislike of the game.
I have played several games of Imperial with a game group in another town. In their games it is not uncommon for two people to not control countries, not want to control countries, and one or both will finish first or second.
I cannot envision the scenario you describe. With opponents playing the way you describe, I would win by a blowout. I still suspect you are playing with wargamers, but I further suspect you are making a minor rule mistake. No idea what it may be, but it may have dramatic ramifications. Here's the issue: So, in my last game, I had a 1 in France, 3 in Germany (enough for control for a while), 3 in Italy, and 5 in Russia with only about 3-4 thousand dollars, due to the Russia player skipping Investor because everyone had bonds for Russia. I lose Germany just before taxation after getting it set up nicely and, after managing to get some more money and taking control of a well-set Italy by buying the 5 just before taxation, the owner buys it back immediately after, leaving me now left with little money and no control of countries. I then try to save the little money I have rolling in, but can never get more than the others so I can get control of a country before taxation. This leads to sitting there, collecting pittances of money and saying "pass" during my invest phase, since I can't afford to bump up my stock and all the 1-3's and most of the 4's are gone. So, I then sit for an hour and get to watch as people play the game, unable to do anything to influence. That's not fun. I didn't want to just concede because it's not the game you really can without effecting it, but the mechanics gave me absolutely no way to get back into the game and no way to change my position. I was totally dependent on the other players whether I got to do something or not.
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Morganza wrote: D-Rider wrote: gilby123 wrote: It's just not fun to not have control of a country, particularly if you aren't able to earn money and reacquire control of one. [... Designer's variant ...] At the end of each Investor Phase, whether the country landed on Investor or passed over Investor on the Rondel, each player who didn't control a country at the start of the Investor Phase either takes $1M from the Bank or gets to issue one loan. I've never heard of loans in this game -- how do they work? Are they only used in games with the Investor card? I assume by loan they mean issuing a bond.
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D-Rider wrote: gilby123 wrote: It's just not fun to not have control of a country, particularly if you aren't able to earn money and reacquire control of one. You must not have used the designer's variant to address this situation: At the end of each Investor Phase, whether the country landed on Investor or passed over Investor on the Rondel, each player who didn't control a country at the start of the Investor Phase either takes $1M from the Bank or gets to issue one loan. This allows players without countries to accumulate cash until they're ready to issue a loan, usually to net them control of a country. That might've helped. At least I might've been able to wrench control and get back into the game.
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gilby123 wrote: I didn't want to just concede because it's not the game you really can without effecting it, but the mechanics gave me absolutely no way to get back into the game and no way to change my position. I was totally dependent on the other players whether I got to do something or not. Much like several other games (Container comes to mind), you do not control your own fate in Imperial. Your own actions will not lead you to victory. The other players control your fate. What you can do is to encourage incentive structures which benefit you. There is no power-play in Imperial. At a fairly large level you win games of Imperial because the other players let you, not because your game-playing mastery forced them or the game into submission. If you want to win, get the other players to help you win. If you do not like games where you are so heavily dependant on the interests of others, where your fate is more in the other player's control than yours, where you cannot win without the implicit collusion of other players, then perhaps Imperial is not the game for you.
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Have you ever played a game of 18xx?
Seriously.
If you haven't, play an 18xx game. You may be better able to appreciate Imperial if you look at it like a stock manipulation game instead of a wargame. In the 18xx railroad games only the largest stockholder controls each company. Many 18xx games last 6 or 8 hours. It is not uncommon for players only control a railroad for a few rounds of the game, win, and not feel left out simply because they didn't control a railroad.
Wargamers who play 18xx for the first time will often wrest control of railroads from other players, because it seems to them that is the way to win. It is not.
A game of Imperial where every country is doing very, very well and no one wants to drop a poor country like a hot potato.... I have to fall back on my wargamer theory.
Some people have a mindset that the country they start the game with is "their" country. At a certain point it should be clear that 2 or 3 countries will finish at the top of the heap and those bonds should go like hotcakes (or possibly like bacon). It should also be clear that 1 or 2 countries will finish at the bottom of the heap. The players who control those countries are foolish to keep buying "their" bonds simply to maintain control. Furthermore, a person who does not control a nation would be foolish to buy floundering bonds just so they can "control" a country.
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I've had very interesting games which have slugged out in the end game as the 'which country will make the x5' rotates around the board as everyone tries to lesson the chances of country X going off. I think one game had 4 countries in the x4 or above.
And other's that haven't gone that way at all.
It isn't a wargame BUT sometimes going to war is the way forward.
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ronaldinho @boardspace.net
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You may be interested in my review. The game is better with 2-4 players in my opinion.
You can't win a game in the opening, but you can lose it. Yes it is pointless to keep playing after that, against experienced players who will never let you back into the game. But once you are experienced yourself, you will avoid losing the game in the opening. You've only played 2 games, it takes a lot more than that to begin to grasp the strategy and intricacies in Imperial.
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dkeisen wrote: To repeat others: Don't play with 6 players. This is fundamentally a 4 player game. Sorry, but I love the game with 6 and feel it is the ideal number.
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gilby123 wrote: .
I want to like it. I should like it.
I'm not sure why you think you "should like it," as this game is very much unlike every game you have rated as an 8 or a 9 (your highest rating, and the 8's were as low as I skimmed). There are no games high in your ratings where you play "outside the game," ala this, or 18xx or Liberte, etc. All of your games to this point have the player taking a direct part as amember of the board population--sure you rate an "investment"ish game like Power Grid highly, but in that you are playing, say the "yellow" power company, buying and placing your own "routes." In games like Imperial or 18xx, you play outside investors who are at heart, disinterested in any one "company" which may be playing a role on the board; you're instead only interested in how the on-board-entities can benefit your portfolio (score). If Power Grid (just as example) worked this way, instead of "being" the yellow player, you (the player) might invest in yellow if you thought it would pay off significantly in the near or longterm--then if it changed later, that red might be a better investment, you'd dump yellow for cash and buy up red, etc. It wouldn't matter to you how yellow did in the long run, only how you could benefit from it--be it investing, selling, or exploiting it's build turn to block a company your opponents are invested in. It may simply be a style of game you just don't like--similar to some people not liking wargames or abstracts or what have you. No fatal flaw in this great game, obviously very well liked and very much played enough to show all its flaws, it's just not your style.
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To be fair to the reviewer, there is a fatal flaw in the game as presented. It's the way the game is presented:
(1) According to experienced players, the game is advertised as being for 2-6 players, but it breaks down with more than four.
(2) It's not immediately obvious whether or not to play with the Investor card. Choose wisely, however, because it may have a big impact on your enjoyment of the game.
(3) A few strategy tips in the rulebook might help people avoid playing it the wrong way ("wargamey" mindset, overly attached to countries, figure out how to "get other people to let you win").
In other words, the game as presented is easy to get wrong. Superficially, it looks like a wargame, with armies, navies, and wars--but it's not. It's not altogether clear, at first glance, exactly what role you're playing (Lloyd's of London? The Rothschilds? The Bavarian Illumanti?), so it's easy to get attached to a country, which you shouldn't. Unless you have experience with games like it, the notion of "getting other people to let you win" might be completely inobvious.
It's the same problem I had with Twilight Imperium, which I think is a great game. The designers did not put sufficient effort into helping new players, who if they don't grok the game, are going to get very frustrated. You shouldn't have to research the game on BGG, listening to the sage advice of people with 30-40 games under their belt, to avoid playing the game with the wrong number of people, the wrong variant, or the wrong way.
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