geek
We're trying to reach 3000 New Supporters by the end of 2008!
BoardGameGeek Supporter Drive
300 600 900 1200 1500 1800 2100 2400 2700 3000 3300
   
557 New Supporters - Support BGG Now!
Recently Viewed
Hot Games
Dominion
Agricola
Axis & Allies Anniversary Edition
Android
Battlestar Galactica
Pandemic
Settlers of Catan, The
Race for the Galaxy
Le Havre
Titan
Puerto Rico
Power Grid
Ghost Stories
Lost Cities: The Board Game
Wasabi!
Apples to Apples
Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! - Russia 1941-1942
Arkham Horror
Carcassonne
Twilight Struggle
Stone Age
Exalted: War for the Throne
Ticket to Ride
Sorry! Sliders
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Space Alert
War of the Ring
Red November
Descent: Journeys in the Dark
Last Night on Earth: The Zombie Game
Tigris & Euphrates
Risk
Mad Gab
Galaxy Trucker
BattleLore
Scrabble
Caylus
StarCraft: The Board Game
Formula D
Race for the Galaxy: The Gathering Storm
El Grande
Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition
Age of Empires III: The Age of Discovery
A Touch of Evil, The Supernatural Game
Munchkin Quest
World of WarCraft Miniatures Game
Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage
Guess Who
Railroad Tycoon
Clue
Rules | Subscriptions | Bookmarks | Search | Account | Moderators
Recommend
22
37 Posts
1 , 2  Next »  
New Thread | Printer Friendly | Subscribe | Bookmark
Your Tags: Login to Add Tags | View 
Popular Tags: [View All]
Huzonfirst
flag
Game Designer
Avatar
050708
I’ve now played Race about eight times, including the sessions before it was actually published. And that’s enough for me to conclude that, while I like and admire the game, I’ll never love it, certainly not nearly as much as so many of my peers. Given the game’s astonishing popularity (some fans report averaging three, four, five, or even six playings a day) and the fact that I’m a big fan of designer Tom Lehmann’s games, it’s natural to wonder why that should be so.

One reason may be my lack of enthusiasm for CCGs. Race obviously isn’t of that genre, but it originated from one and, to me, it bears a reasonable resemblance to a CCG. Out of the 114 cards in the game, only 19 are duplicates, so you’ve got a whole bunch of different cards to deal with. Having at least some familiarity with those different types is quite important. You also have to work out how they work together and what the good combos are. Moreover, the high-scoring "6" cards are all different and many of them are quite complex. Lots of different cards, combos, complex interactions — even without a deck building aspect, that sounds a lot like a CCG to me. I can see the average RftG player poring over the deck, working out these tactics, but that’s not the kind of thing I’d ever do. Consequently, I’ve found this to have a much higher learning curve than many others have.

When I mention that Race isn’t an 11 for me, the first question I’m usually asked is if I like San Juan. Actually, I love San Juan, but despite the fact that it’s one of the two parents of Race, I don’t think the two games feel much alike at all. SJ scores with its speed of play and its approachability. There’s only a couple of dozen different cards and most of them are very straightforward. It should only take a few games to get the hang of most of the strategies, which is very appropriate for the middleweight game it is. Many of these strategies revolve around the "6" cards and they’re all easily understood. Race, on the other hand, is very much a gamer’s game. There are multiple ways to play cards, multiple ways to add cards, and lots of different ways to score. There’s a large number of strategies and it probably takes quite a few games to even discover some of them. The "6" cards are just as important, but most of them feature numerous ways of assigning VPs and many of them are very difficult to easily summarize. They may be children born of the same mother, but they are anything but identical twins.

I’ve also found that the sheer variety of Race is something of an impediment to picking it up. Some have complained about the iconography on the cards, but I think Tom, Jay, and lead playtester Wei-Hwa Huang did a terrific job with them. But there’s just so many powers and abilities in the game that it’s almost impossible to make them all crystal clear without a verbal explanation. I’ve found this to be another mild barrier to getting into the game. In addition, this variety makes it very difficult to quickly perceive what your opponents have in front of them until you’ve pretty much memorized the deck. This lessens the interaction in a game that already can play like a solitaire game for the inexperienced.

The biggest issue for me is probably the way my group approaches games. Most Race fanatics report playing it multiple times in a session (sometimes five or six times in a row). It's very rare that my group plays a game even twice in a row. And that’s the way I like it, as I’m very big on variety. But without the reinforcement that this repetition provides, I’m not sure I’ll ever be totally comfortable with the play of this game.

So for me, a typical game of Race has me stumbling through my turns, constantly checking the player aids, and squinting at the card icons, my eyes never leaving my own hand and display. At least once a game, I encounter a card whose function I cannot understand from its icons and, more often than not, I’ll just use it as payment rather than ask for an explanation. My strategy shifts from turn to turn, with little coherence. Usually about two thirds of the way through the game, I’ll check what my opponents are doing and try to take that into account. But it isn’t that much of an issue, as I’m usually far behind by then.

Don’t get me wrong: I don’t dislike this game. I think it’s very clever and don’t mind the play at all. But it’s been eight games now and I still feel like I’m in the early stages of learning it. I don’t need to win a game in order to enjoy it, but there needs to be some minimum level of competence in order for me to really feel like this is a worthwhile use of my limited gaming time. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and I think that’s the prudent thing for me to do with Race. I’m happy the rest of the gaming world loves it and I’m particularly happy for Tom and for Jay. But when I think of Mr. Lehmann and 2007, it’s Phoenicia that I’ll be pining to play and not the more popular Race for the Galaxy.

Update: Okay, I was recently at a session with someone who wanted to learn Race, so, even though this isn't a favorite, I was happy to accomodate them. And then he wanted to play it again! Twice in a row! Yes, there was actual physical pain!

However, I have to admit, the game did flow a bit easier for me when played back to back. And even stranger, I won both games! Now I'm still not sure I'm any closer to grokking this. While both victories came relatively easily, it seemed as if I decided on a strategy early on and I kept picking cards that matched that strategy. So maybe more good fortune than any real understanding. It has made me a bit more receptive to playing Race in the future, but it's still not a game I think I'll ever request. But it was nice to play a couple of games where I didn't feel I was in a fog (and even nicer to win both of them!).
BT Carpenter
flag
Avatar
07
As has been said, it takes 3 games to get past the iconography and understand what's happening.
It takes another 5-8 games to understand why it's happening.
And then after that, you can influence it happening.

So with 8 games under your belt, I'd say you're right where you're supposed to be in the learning curve.

I find the 'won't play games back to back' thing interesting. Because RftG plays so very quickly (if everyone's experienced and wants it to flow quickly), you can easily get in 2-3 games of Race in the time it takes to play one game of any of the other top 10.

As you said, fast repetition pays off, and though you'll never stop learning new combinations or seeing new tactical choices, you will get more familiar with basic strategies and be able to work towards a goal -- which required knowledge of what's in the deck.

I was lucky, in that when my wife and I popped the shrink wrap, we were on a train and had five solid hours of nothing else to do except play in the lounge car. We managed to get past the initial learing curve very quickly with rapid fire, back to back playing (with the starting hands) and just rotating through the start worlds. I'll admit that it helps that we had both independantly read the rules and understood the basics of play before even dealing the first card.
Matt Vollick
flag
I've said this many times but this is the first time I'm actually writing it out:

If your best reason for not liking this game is that it's too hard to learn what the symbols on the cards mean you probably gave up driving a car when you were 16 because of all the confusing road signs and traffic lights. Or declaring a book in Russian is a bad novel because it's too hard to figure out what it means.

If anyone out there is contemplating purchasing RftG and reads the review above; please realize it's coming from someone who is foggy about the rules. Would you place much weight in a movie review when the reviewer only saw 8 minutes of the flick? It's only natural that when you don't know what's going on in a game you're going to be less than enthused about it. RftG is a great game with a short play time and with it's affordable price it's a great addition to almost anyone's collection.



Steven Duff
flag
Avatar
07
Vollick1979 wrote:
If anyone out there is contemplating purchasing RftG and reads the review above; please realize it's coming from someone who is foggy about the rules. Would you place much weight in a movie review when the reviewer only saw 8 minutes of the flick?


In no way is the reviewer "foggy about the rules". He knows the rules, he simply hasn't committed the dozens of colours and symbols to memory as some of you have. This impacts his enjoyment of the game, enough to limit his desire to play it. Which is something that every single potential player of this game is going to have to go through. My wife took one look at the cards and said "No chance in hell". And no, these are not stupid people who can barely learn to drive.

Equating 8 to 10 full plays of a game to watching only 8 minutes of a movie is pretty insulting. One game play equals one minute? What, he should play it 100 times before he's qualified to offer his impressions?
Guy Srinivasan
flag
08
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Equating 8 to 10 full plays of a game to watching only 8 minutes of a movie is pretty insulting. One game play equals one minute? What, he should play it 100 times before he's qualified to offer his impressions?

Hm, let's see. We'll put the movie at 90 minutes. A reviewer need not see the entire thing to be qualified to review it... let's say he needs to see at least 2/3 before we stop scoffing at him. So that's 60 minutes. Seeing 8 minutes being like playing 8 times means we're demanding 60 plays for a reviewer. That's equivalent to about 20 plays of a normal length game. Maybe a little stringent, but far from insulting.

And now that I think about it, I'm not sure I'd care much about a review of Puerto Rico from someone with less than 20 plays under their belt. Unless of course I'm looking to see how I'll like it for my first few plays. In which case this review is excellent, because it seems to be a not-uncommon first reaction to the game.
Last edited on 2008-07-07 02:07:00 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Huzonfirst
flag
Game Designer
Avatar
050708
Well, it isn't a review, it's a "brief look". Essentially, it's my feelings about the game and my attempt to figure out why I'm less than enthusiastic about it than many other gamers are when I like the style, I like the designer's other work, and it's clear that it's a superior design. It certainly isn't meant as an attack against the game. On the other hand, I am quite clear on the rules, thank you--it's executing a coherent plan that I'm still struggling with. There are games that you pick up right away and others you have troubles grasping and for me, Race is tending toward the latter. However, there may be reasons for that and I've tried to outline a few of them.

And Matt, if the traffic signs in Canada really do resemble the icons in Race for the Galaxy, maybe I'd better keep driving south of the border! :)
Goran Topic
flag
0708
Firstly, I like the review. It's subjective in an objective way (or the other way around, I'm not sure) - Huzonfirst's comments are primarily on the way he feels about the game, and is quite straightforward about the fact, as well as about the quite objective reasons that. It is neither the shower of praise, nor hatefest (mandatorily followed by it's-subtle-and-you-just-don't-get-its, which I agree with but... repetitive much?) I have, regretfully, come to expect from an average RftG review.

Second, I agree with the gist, if not the tone, of Vollick's post. Learning Race is work.

First you have to understand the rules. Then you can play a mock turn or two.

Then you have to understand the icons. Then you can play a mock game.

This far, you've spent maybe an hour or so. Which is shorter than the first mock-turn for Die Macher. You still don't know how to play well, but you know how to play.

Then you have to know (all) the icons. Then you can play a real game or three.

Then you have to grok the distribution of different features. (I.e. There's a lot of military 2 gene windfalls. There's only 1 world with resistance over 7, and none over that. There are heaps of blue trade powers, but not for yellow. Etc. etc.). And this, you don't get this by poring over the deck (at least, I didn't) - but by playing dozens of games, where you gradually improve your game as you understand more and more of the universe.

Meanwhile you have to learn to watch what the opponents are doing. This also comes with experience, and you can't do it before you are comfortable with the cards.

Which is exactly the way we learn how to play most other games well. I can recite the four or so rules of Go in under five minutes. I can teach someone to play in under half an hour. But I still know that I myself am a crap player, and if I play much, much more diligently than I play now, I might, maybe, possibly, get good in ten or twenty years.

But you don't have to memorise the cards themselves. I still don't know the majority of them, at least not by heart, and certainly not by name. I can't follow most of the master solver threads here, because I have no clue which cards they're talking about most of the time (and I can't be bothered to take my deck and look up each one). But I can nevertheless play with confidence, knowing I can evaluate the game situation at a glance - since the icons are that well developed.

Ultimately, IMHO, it's about the way our memory works. Repetition is important. When you learn something, you have to reinforce it. If you space your initial repetitions too far apart, you forget - and then you have to start learning all over again. Previous learning does not help. All over again.

Other games give you the needed repetition through their length, so you're good for a week to couple of months (after that, people forget if they don't play again - I have witnessed it time and again; the precise interval depends on a person). This game is so short that the initial rules-learning game does not last you a week. You need several games back-to-back in the start to give you the long-term learning effect comparable to other games first session.
Last edited on 2008-07-07 03:17:51 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Todd McCorkle
flag
Avatar
Larry Levy wrote:
I’ve also found that the sheer variety of Race is something of an impediment to picking it up. Some have complained about the iconography on the cards, but I think Tom, Jay, and lead playtester Wei-Hwa Huang did a terrific job with them. But there’s just so many powers and abilities in the game that it’s almost impossible to make them all crystal clear without a verbal explanation. I’ve found this to be another mild barrier to getting into the game. In addition, this variety makes it very difficult to quickly perceive what your opponents have in front of them until you’ve pretty much memorized the deck. This lessens the interaction in a game that already can play like a solitaire game for the inexperienced.
I want to focus on this section for a moment and give my "in defense of icons" rant.

I vastly prefer the icons to text. Seemingly for the same reason why you don't like them. I can't read tiny upside down text on cards that are on the other side of the table from me. I used to dabble in CCGs and at first I would annoy people to death by asking "what does that card do again? What does this card do?" I get to about the 5th card and have forgotten what the 1st one I asked about did. When playing San Juan, if my opponent plays a library, I only know what it does because I have the card memorized. Thankfully SJ has few cards and it was easy to quickly memorize most of the deck.

With Race, I can quickly scan my opponents tableau from across the table and see where they are strong/weak. "Hmmm, he has lots of development bonuses. Maybe I should avoid picking that role." I especially like the design choice of aligning all the phases along the left edge of the card. Looking for explore powers? Just check the top of the card. With text it would be looking for all the cards that say "explore phase" which would make it a lot easier for me to miss.

The icons also make it easier for cards to do different stuff during multiple phases. Again, with text, it would be "explore phase: blah. trader phase: blah". The card would quickly get cluttered and nearly unreadable (and that's when it is in my hand, let alone your side of the table). All the cards in SJ are single phase only. This gives Race a lot more variety which makes the game a lot more interesting for me. I still like SJ a lot, but it seems overly simple to me now. *shrug*
Huge Lightsabre
flag
Avatar
GreedyAlgorithm wrote:
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Equating 8 to 10 full plays of a game to watching only 8 minutes of a movie is pretty insulting. One game play equals one minute? What, he should play it 100 times before he's qualified to offer his impressions?

Hm, let's see. We'll put the movie at 90 minutes. A reviewer need not see the entire thing to be qualified to review it... let's say he needs to see at least 2/3 before we stop scoffing at him. So that's 60 minutes. Seeing 8 minutes being like playing 8 times means we're demanding 60 plays for a reviewer. That's equivalent to about 20 plays of a normal length game. Maybe a little stringent, but far from insulting.

And now that I think about it, I'm not sure I'd care much about a review of Puerto Rico from someone with less than 20 plays under their belt. Unless of course I'm looking to see how I'll like it for my first few plays. In which case this review is excellent, because it seems to be a not-uncommon first reaction to the game.


I find it rather patronising that often a review posted after only one play is attacked by fans of the game proclaiming that the reviewer 'didn't understand it' or 'needs to play more'. I've played enough games to know what I like and what I don't, and I can recognise that after only one or two plays. I can often understand why people enjoy a game that I don't, or appreciate the design and mechanics involved, but just know that it isn't my cup of tea.

Given that position, why should someone subject themselves to 20 plays of a game they don't like before they are qualified to have an opinion? If we applied that, then there would only even be positive reviews on the Geek, because no-one is actually going to play a game they don't enjoy that much just in order to review it here.

The movie analogy is unfair as well, since a movie lasts about the same length as one typical game in the top 100 (not of RftG, obviously), and first plays take longer. Besides, you don't need to watch the whole of Gigli or Dungeons and Dragons: The Movie to know that they're sh*t.

Personally I love RftG, and I never had a problem with the iconography. But I can understand why people do, I understand that it has a steep learning curve, and as such I think this review serves as a decent counter-point to some of the worship that goes on around here. It's important for potential purchasers consulting BGG reviews to have a variety of views on any game, to make the best informed decision they can.
Last edited on 2008-07-07 04:21:26 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Huge Lightsabre
flag
Avatar
Oh, and bonus points for use of the word 'grokking'.
Eric Brosius
flag
Avatar
0405060708