|
|
Zombie Plague
» Forums » Reviews
Why ZP is better than Last Night on Earth
I like both games very much. I bought LNOE in hopes that its greatness would replace ZP at my gaming table. It did not. I have played Zombies!!! and found it to be quite broken, and I have also played Mall of Horror and found it to be a good game, but not a good "zombie" game. I've found that Zombie Plague is still my number one zombie game. I've compiled the strongest points of ZP as compared to LNOE. As ZP has many house rules, I'd like to first clarify the primary variant rules that I use: humans must secure one room instead of the whole house, zombies bite on 5 or 6, two zombies spawn per zombie turn, and the zombie turn is autonomous (each zombie moves towards the nearest visible human). Zombie Plague is better because... 1. Barricades.The whole idea of frantically securing the house is very intense. LNOE has zombies walking through walls, something I could never quite get over. One of my favorite moments in ZP was when a fellow player managed to: land two BODYSHOTS on a zombie, forcing it backwards through a door, and then run up and slam in a barricade to win the game. I like LNOE's flavorful scenarios, but, nothing feels quite as thrilling as boarding up that house with all those zombies outside (or inside!). 2. Small-scale.In ZP, the feeling of movement and time is on a small-scale, compared to LNOE. For example, a player must maneuver around a kitchen table in order to reach the refrigerator and search it, or a player must turn around in order to swing his wrench at a zombie lunging at his back. In LNOE, all the spaces and rooms are much more "macro," or large-scale, especially in the center board. There is no facing, there is no maneuvering around board elements (except walls), rooms can be searched from anywhere within the room. You can move quickly from one side of the board to the other, whereas in ZP movement is much more realistic. In my opinion, LNOE's large-scale diminishes the tense interaction of the player to the board elements. One of my favorite moments in ZP was at the very last moments of an arduous session: All the humans except Thad had managed to make it into the cellar. Thad was separated from the cellar door by a throng of zombies. In order to make it, he would have to hack his way through the zombies. He tried desperately for a few turns, while a few of the players in the cellar were demanding that Thad simply be barricaded out and left to be eaten, so the rest could win the game. Finally, I managed to pick off a zombie or two from behind with my rifle, and Thad managed to kill a zombie on the first swing of his kitchen knife, leaving an open path to the cellar. Thad has exactly enough actions points left to run to the cellar, barricading the door to win the game. In LNOE, though tense moments like these can be conveyed through the interaction of the cards, I feel much of these small tense moments are lost in the large-scale of the game. 3. Action points. First of all, action points makes learning ZP pretty easy. Instead of having phases like in LNOE, in ZP a player simply decides how to use his 4 actions however he/she wants. LNOE's phases feel regimented and unrealistic. In LNOE, I can either move OR search (not both), and then attack, etc. To me, ZP's action points offer more freedom of decision. Should I use 4 actions points to run and barricade the window from the zombies right outside, or should I use 2 action points and search the square right next to me? 4. Realistic game board. ZP's game board looks like an actual house, with relatively realistic scale. LNOE "is a courtyard" (to quote Yib-yab's review). To me, the layout of the town is not convincing enough. Where are the roads and the abandoned cars? Why are these building sitting randomly on this grassy expanse? Also the buildings are somewhat off in relative scale to each other. I know this isn't a big deal, but to me I want to feel like I am running frantically around a real town. 5. Better "board" game.In general, board games have the potential to be more "realistic" compared to card games because there are playing pieces that can move and interact with a visual landscape. LNOE often feels like a card game to me. Yes, your player does move on a board, but the fun of the game comes in the interaction of cards. That's where LNOE's zombie-ness comes out, in the very well-written cards. I like ZP because I can face down a zombie and fire away (roll the die) without having random cards be played against me. Both games are very luck-based, but I feel the hands of cards in LNOE make the game much too random. There is randomness in ZP's "event" search cards, but it can only occur during searching. I use the word "realistic" often in my analysis of ZP. I know this word is somewhat relative. But I feel that the relative realism of ZP really helps to convey the intensity of a zombie environment. I strongly feel that the many house rules and variants as well as the print-and-play aspect scare many away from a brilliantly tense and fun game. ~Kwanchai
Last edited on 2008-07-17 04:36:58 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
|
|
|
good points, kwanchai. This game always had "something" for me. years ago I invented my own houserules since I felt the original game was missing somewhat. your review made me look for ZP again, and DUDE, what happened to that file section: lots of variants, VERY professional new designs etc. looks like ZP has kind of grown up. many of those marvellous files are by you, kwanchai. you're an very active ZP player, as it seems. I agree with you, that the sheer amount of house rules looks intimidating - not because it's so complicated, but due to the impression that the "perfect" rule set still hasn't been found. but your review talks me into jumping on the wagon again. so, what would your recommendation for new players (gamers, no newbies) be? what kind of ruleset would be the best combination iyo? which files would you recommend? is there any consensus in the fan group? any opinions of other players? I've only one shot in my ATZ group. any help is appreciated!
Last edited on 2008-07-17 02:24:23 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
|
|
|
That's a brilliant review which mirrors the majority of my thoughts exactly.
|
|
|
The focus of the game on the smaller locale compared to an entire town is why my gaming group also prefers ZP to LNOE. We tried to get into LNOE, but just could not do it when we had Zombie Plague sitting right there.
I like all the points you brought up. LNOE tried to fix up some of the complaints of the game with the expansion, which made it a little more fun and thematic for us, but it still sits on the shelf more than it's played. ZP wins 4 of 5 votes hands down every time someone in my group wants to play a zombie game.
|
|
|
How much do you need to spend to have it printed at Kinko's? It does look interesting, I've just never taken the plunge on a print and play game. Thanks.
TK.
|
|
|
kwanchai wrote: LNOE often feels like a card game to me. Yes, your player does move on a board, but the fun of the game comes in the interaction of cards. This is my main complaint about LNoE. There is very little tactics involved in moving, searching etc. 99% of the time, the cards will dictate the action. You just convinced me to give ZP a try...
|
|
|
Good analysis, thank you. Personally, I enjoy both games. ZP is great to take on vacation with my kids. Easy to pack and play. While on vacation in Boston last summer, we played each night in the hotel lobby. LNOE is a different game for a different group. Check out the spiel pod cast interview with Flying Frog. The card art and thought that went into it is amazing. Hey, don’t tell anyone, but I have used the LNOE figs with ZP.
grey
|
|
|
Very nice Kwanchai. Sums up the differences very well. I don't know if I'd say that's why ZP is BETTER, but I would say that's why it's 100% EVERY BIT AS GOOD AS LNOE. They're both different flavors of zombie board gaming to me (as is Zombies!!! with the Quick(er)Play rules. I like LNOE quite a bit, but for all the reasons you mention I'll never give up ZP, & think everyone who is in to zombies & zombie games should check it out. I'll add a couple more too: First, ZP is FREE!  Second, since it is free & all of your components are already homemade, it very easy to integrate new cards, boards etc. Along those same lines, to me LNOE is fairly "dense" design wise. This-is-balanced-against-that. A little nudge the wrong way tips the whole thing, & it's all so interwoven design wise, w/ so many rule/card interactions, that it makes it difficult to add/change anything. ZP's beauty partially lies in it's simplicity. It makes it very easy (& attractive...) to add, subtract, rearrange & tinker to your hearts content. If you're a BGG'er who like to do customs for your games it's a dream in that regard. ---MS
|
|
|
kwanchai wrote: As ZP has many house rules, I'd like to first clarify the primary variant rules that I use: humans must secure one room instead of the whole house, zombies bite on 5 or 6, two zombies spawn per zombie turn, and the zombie turn is autonomous (each zombie moves towards the nearest visible human). It's been a couple months since we played ZP. But these house rules of yours would seem to make the game a bit of a cakewalk. Only need to secure one room? And we actually tried it with autonomous zombies first, a carryover from having previously played many games of Dead of Night. The autonomous zombies were just too easy to thwart, so we opted for evil zombie overlord, a la Descent. Can you explain a little more why you feel your alterations improve the game?
|
|
|
Grey Dragon wrote: Good analysis, thank you. Personally, I enjoy both games. ZP is great to take on vacation with my kids. Easy to pack and play. While on vacation in Boston last summer, we played each night in the hotel lobby. LNOE is a different game for a different group. Check out the spiel pod cast interview with Flying Frog. The card art and thought that went into it is amazing. Hey, don’t tell anyone, but I have used the LNOE figs with ZP.
grey
I absolutely love the quality of LNOE. They did a good job with the art, the cards and the figures. Like you said, it's an entirely differen type of game for a certain group of people. We actually use a Bag o Zombies from the Zombies!! game for our zombies. My figs for the survivors are actually from another game which I cannot think of right now. But since you mentioned it, I think I'll start using LNOE's hero figs with ZP.
|
|
|
Kwanchai I am a huge fan of ZOMBIE PLAGUE, in fact I don't own any other game since this covers almost to perfection the genre. Every time we play it everybody enjoys it so much time is not a problem at all and with all the extra cards, expansions and extra maps we have enough variety for continuous play. I love also that the way I printed the maps (A3 laminated) I can store them without consuming space on another box and the quality of the graphics is really spectacular. I also use a bag'o zombies as they fit perfectly the squares and the heroes from Betrayal at the house of the Hill. I am looking for buying of course the heroes from Last night on earth since they look very cool to use with this game. Just take a look at this: The quality is awesome and with painted zombies it looks even better. Until I am proven that other game is better than Zombie Plague, I will not touch anything else in the genre. However I changed the rules slighty when a character dies to allow everybody to play to the end: Now the heroes as a team have as many lives as heroes are playing and when one of them dies he/she reapears through a dice roll on one of the sides removing one life from the team and adding an extra level to the zombies. The extra level is represented by increasing the limit the zombie player has for placing zombies by 2 for each life taken, so if the heroes are 3 and 2 of them die the zombie player can place up to 8 zombies per hero and since the 3 will be playing till the end that increases their doom faster. Also a dead hero loses all items and weapons that remain in the position of the dead and also a zombie is placed as usual on that position to represent zombification. We use the action points as life to measure how well is a hero doing and remove an action point everytime a hero is wounded. This gives the game a realistic experience as the more wounded the hero is the higher the probabilities he will be killed. Anyway, we enjoy this very much, enough too say I am not expecting any more expansions as I think the game is so expansive I have to choose carefully from the actual expansions to create my own Zombie Plague for a particular session. Plus the spanish translation of the cards makes this game one of the few I have in my own language and we REALLY LOVE THIS FACT. Now I can play with my non english speaking friends too so this game has everything and I am very happy as you can see
Last edited on 2008-07-18 10:30:11 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
|
|
|
Thanks for the review kwanchai!  I've been remiss in playing ZP and based on your review, will have to at least give it a few tries. It might just find a home here...
|
|
|
I totally agree with you, and it's quite strange 'cause it's obvious that LNOE is based on ZP (and a bit of Zombies!!!). Some changes they made spoiled the "freshness" and theme-feeling of the original. I'm thinking of mixing "components" to re-arrange LNOE to be more like ZP. Roll dice for moving?
|
|
|
Thanks for writing such a compelling review. I think I'll be printing this today.
|
|
|
Wonderful review. I've not played LNOE, only seen it demoed. And while I've wanted to buy it, "something" has always nagged at me not to do so. I think your review sums this up nicely. I'll be printing the board tonight, mounting it onto the 1/8" hardboard, and playing with my Twilight Creations Zombies!!! pieces the first chance I get.
|
Was George Orwell an optimist?
|
I find it interesting that the comparative review is between LNoE as published and ZP with house rules. It makes me wonder how the comparison would go if you had used a bunch of house rules to make LNoE suit you better, and compared that to ZP as published.
|
|
|
That is a good point. But even without the house rules (in my case, two very minor ones), I feel that my points are still valid. House rules or not, LNOE's game mechanics would still be very different from ZP's. And comparing both games without house rules, for me, ZP's game mechanic ties more clearly to the zombie-barricading-frantic theme than does LNOE. Then again, there are more cliche zombie scenarios than the zombie-barricading-frantic one. And I do feel that LNOE does a good job of covering many different types of typical zombie scenarios, as a whole. I just feel that the "barricade place, find useful stuff" scenario is the best part of any zombie epidemic. And it's my favorite thing to see in any zombie movie, i.e. barricading the mall in Dawn of the Dead, barricading the house in NotLD, or even steel barricades in I Am Legend (I know they're actually vampires). So any game that does that the best, is the best zombie game. And LNOE just doesn't deliver in that way, for me. (Especially with ghost zombies...)
|
Was George Orwell an optimist?
|
Thanks, kwanchai, that gives me a much better idea of where you're coming from.
|
|
|
Sorry it took so long, but I'd like to respond to a few comments from awhile back. woodoo03 wrote: so, what would your recommendation for new players (gamers, no newbies) be? what kind of ruleset would be the best combination iyo? which files would you recommend? is there any consensus in the fan group? As for rules, I, of course, would recommend the rules that I have included with my PDF file. It is a very lightly revised version of the original rules, designed to be easier to read and more fun to play. Really the only main difference is that, in my rules, zombies spawn faster and bite more, as compared the original rules. This makes it much more difficult to board up the entire house, as per the original rules' human victory conditions. Which is why my personal recommendation would be to play the "Shorter Game" variant listed in the rules of my Updated Zombie Plague package, with new players. Basically, it changes the human victory conditions from barricading the entire house, to just barricading one room with everyone inside. This variant is a much easier play for humans. But for new players, I've found that it's much more fun because humans have a better chance of surviving until the end. So there's a better chance of a variety of interesting weapons, items, and events coming into play. And that is important for newbies, because it showcases the really interesting parts of the game, i.e. firing a shotgun, or finding the Cellar. That's why I always play the "Shorter Game" variant, because I always seem to be playing with at least one new person. Especially if that new person is a girl, because I've found that girls don't respond to getting mauled and infected by a zombie in the first few turns as well cheerfully as does a guy. That's happened a few times, and those gals don't want to play ZP again. In summary, playing with faster spawning/better biting zombies speeds up the intensity of the zombies, while the "Shorter Game" variant balances that intensity with an easier human victory condition. So I feel that they should always be played together. For what files to use, you might want to check another article I've done: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/327882 If you are no longer a newbie, I would highly, highly recommend playing "The Traitor" variant. It's the only way that my seasoned ZP players want to play Zombie Plague, including myself. It's originally called the Cooper variant, i.e. the character from Night of the Living Dead, but I renamed it in the rules because a lot of my friends didn't know the reference. garygarison wrote: It's been a couple months since we played ZP. But these house rules of yours would seem to make the game a bit of a cakewalk. Only need to secure one room? And we actually tried it with autonomous zombies first, a carryover from having previously played many games of Dead of Night. The autonomous zombies were just too easy to thwart, so we opted for evil zombie overlord, a la Descent.
Can you explain a little more why you feel your alterations improve the game? In the beginning, I only played those house rules with new players. Eventually I found that playing with them, cut down on playing time, and still delivered a good zombie experience. When I originally started playing ZP without any house rules, games would average about 2 hours or more of playing time, and the Zombie player won most of the time. And more often than not, it was because the human players had become exhausted of playing and given up in the face of insurmountable odds. I felt the basic game was epic, yet slow. Then I started using house rules. Please note that I feel all my house rules have to be used together, otherwise using only one imbalances the game. The house rules made the zombies spawn more and bite better, thereby making the game more intense. So only with more intense zombies, does the "Shorter Game" variant make sense to me. ZP sessions now last about 1 hour at the the most, with humans winning much more often. But even with the game tipped in favor of humans, there's always one or two great deaths that it's just as exciting. As for the "autonomous zombies," I feel that the Zombie player is just an extremely boring side to play. Yes, there are choices to be made, but they are very limited. Unless of course, the Zombie player is moving his zombies in pincer-movements like army regiments. And this, I've always felt, is not conducive to a "realistic" ZP session. So the way it works in our gaming group is everyone in the game plays a human character and one person also plays the zombies, but plays them ruthlessly.
|
|
|