geek
Recently Viewed
Hot Games
Dominion
Agricola
Android
Settlers of Catan, The
Axis & Allies Anniversary Edition
Battlestar Galactica
Race for the Galaxy
Pandemic
Titan
Puerto Rico
Wasabi!
Le Havre
Apples to Apples
Power Grid
Ghost Stories
Carcassonne
Twilight Struggle
Arkham Horror
Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! - Russia 1941-1942
Ticket to Ride
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Tigris & Euphrates
Risk
War of the Ring
Descent: Journeys in the Dark
Stone Age
Formula D
Lost Cities: The Board Game
Last Night on Earth: The Zombie Game
Caylus
StarCraft: The Board Game
BattleLore
Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition
Red November
El Grande
Space Alert
Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage
Galaxy Trucker
Race for the Galaxy: The Gathering Storm
Mad Gab
Age of Empires III: The Age of Discovery
Scrabble
Hive
Munchkin Quest
A Touch of Evil, The Supernatural Game
Sequence
Guess Who
World of WarCraft Miniatures Game
Clue
Railroad Tycoon
Rules | Subscriptions | Bookmarks | Search | Account | Moderators
Recommend
30 Posts
1 , 2  Next »  
New Thread | Printer Friendly | Subscribe | Bookmark
Your Tags: Login to Add Tags | View 
Popular Tags: [View All]
Alan Kwan
flag
Is it legal for a player to select the privilage action and then buy nothing?

With any other action, there is no reason for the player to forgo the action (once he's chosen it) since the player doesn't have to pay anything for it. So this question is meaningful only for the privilage action. (Although the practical usefulness of such move is probably very low, but that's another question.)
Star IP
flag
08
Assuming the English translation is authoritative, a player MUST buy a privilege tile if he/she takes the privilege action.
Alan Kwan
flag
However, one can argue against this ruling with the point that, the rules never say that you have to be able to perform an action in order to be allowed to select it (compare with Agricola). The rules just say that, when your turn comes around, you select a group and place your dragon there, and perform an action within that group. What happens when one selects the group with the privilage action when he has no money?

And the rules don't even say that the player "must" buy a privilage; the rules just say that the player buys a privilage. There are a lot of cases in game rules when the absence of words like "must" or "may" can be intended to mean either way ...
Chris Linneman
flag
If the rules say "the player buys a privilege" I would say you must buy one if you can afford it, but I think it's ok to take the action (placing your marker there and blocking it for other players) without the necessary money. Nothing in the rules says that in order to claim an action you need to legally be able to perform it, and in other games this sort of thing is clearly specified in the rules.
Paul Sauberer
flag
Avatar
0405060708
Has anyone sent the question to Rio Grande Games? Jay is very good about solving these types of issues, so there is really no need to make worthless speculation. A definitive answer can be gotten pretty easily.
marc magner
flag
Avatar
05060708
Alan Kwan wrote:

And the rules don't even say that the player "must" buy a privilage; the rules just say that the player buys a privilage.


well here is the rule.....

"When a player chooses this action, he **pays** either 2 yuan to obtain a small privilege or 6 yean for a large priviledge (paying the money to the general supply)"


now you are correct, the rules never say you must be able to execute an action in order to take it, but this appears to be a pretty clear case of rules lawyering... the intent of the rules seems to be that in order to do the privilege action that you must have at least 2 yuan and you must spend it. This looks to be a pretty clear example of one of those 'we never thought about someone not executing an action' kind of thing. As always you are free to play your game anyway you choose, I would assume though that the majority of players will play it that a player 'must' be able to execute the action in order to select it.
Alan Kwan
flag
Psauberer wrote:
Has anyone sent the question to Rio Grande Games? Jay is very good about solving these types of issues, so there is really no need to make worthless speculation. A definitive answer can be gotten pretty easily.

The problem is, I don't want to trust Jay with this one. Can anyone get in touch with Stefen Feld?
Alan Kwan
flag
easterly1 wrote:
This looks to be a pretty clear example of one of those 'we never thought about someone not executing an action' kind of thing.

It clearly looks like an omission in the rules. The "literal" interpretation is not explicit.

The problem with the literal interpretation is that, it feels inconsistent with the rest of the cases, since all the other actions don't have costs or requirements. There is nothing preventing me from taking any other action purely for the purpose of "blocking" a later player (other than the obviously crucial requirement that I have to act before them), so why is there such a requirement for the Privilage action?
Star IP
flag
08
I think you can choose the way you play if you feel uncomfortable with a particular rule.

Besides, I wondered if there are any inconsistencies in the rule. The rule already states that a player carries out exactly 1 of the actions in the group. If he doesn't want to, he can skip his turn and takes 3 yuans. So, there is already an "escape" plan for those can't choose action (i.e. can't play for the privilege and no other groups can be selected.) Similarly, if one selects other actions (not the privilege), they have to execute those actions as stated.

The "must", "may", etc. already creates trouble for certain people. But, in literal sense, if present tense is used, you have to do what you told, no exception.

So, I would agree with other people that one must pay if he chooses a privilege action and has yuan to pay. If one has no yuan, it's up to you to choose how you could play.
Paul Sauberer
flag
Avatar
0405060708
Alan Kwan wrote:
Psauberer wrote:
Has anyone sent the question to Rio Grande Games? Jay is very good about solving these types of issues, so there is really no need to make worthless speculation. A definitive answer can be gotten pretty easily.

The problem is, I don't want to trust Jay with this one. Can anyone get in touch with Stefen Feld?


Perhaps you mean Stefan Brück, the developer at alea? Surely you didn't mean to ask the designer, since as a group they are notoriously spotty at answering rules questions, as the game may have undergone revisions in the development process. The publishers have the last say in the finished product and, in Brück's case, he actually writes the rules for the alea games. If you don't "trust" Jay to make a rules clarification for a game he published, maybe you will accept Brück's word (unless, of course, you don't get the answer you are looking for)?
ronaldinho @boardspace.net
flag
Avatar
What if I selected the action, and then in the meantime changed my mind? (Maybe I realized I need to save money to buy actions in later months.)

I would say that you may choose the action without using it.
marc magner
flag
Avatar
05060708
Alan Kwan wrote:

It clearly looks like an omission in the rules. The "literal" interpretation is not explicit.


I don't know but i'd have to say that the literal version of the rules *is* pretty explicit, pay 2 or pay 6... there is no may pay 2 or pay 6, and there is no pay 0, or any if unable to pay then do this...

so while you may attempt to 'game' the void in the rules in regards to what happens if i'm unable or unwilling to execute an action, I see that strictly as gamesmanship, but you are free to play as you wish as always....

btw: am a i able to ignore the helmet action if I so choose? or only take partial amounts, the rules don't seem to cover that either?
Alan Kwan
flag
Well, this topic is entirely academic and I'd bet that no one would ever want to play that move (unless he's not playing to win and just kingmaking).