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Eric Landes
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Warriors of God » Forums » Reviews
But it looks so good on the table...
(originally posted at http://twosidestothecoin.blogspot.com/2008/10/but-it-looks-g...)

There are those that will fondly look back on the days of Avalon Hill as the “golden age of wargaming.” To me, it's “golden” only if you consider golden anniversaries as celebrating something that happened a long time ago.

The real “golden age” of wargaming is now. The games being produced today have better production (okay, so they're not mounted maps...), better design, and a much wider experience in gameplay. No individual game is printed in the numbers Avalon Hill used to crank out in the day, but it wouldn't surprise me if the total number of games being produced isn't somewhere within at least hailing distance of what was being printed 30 years ago.

Preorder systems instituted by most companies insure that, for the most part, only the games people want are the ones that are printed. This has had an interesting side effect. The quality bar is much higher than it was long ago. “Substandard” games frequently either don't make the cut and are never produced, or they languish back in the queue as more popular games keep bumping them back. Many companies publish their rules in advance so prospective buyers have a good idea of how games will function and whether it's a game for them.

This has had the effect of making “wasted”gaming time a rarity. People are nearly always playing games they like as they knew in advance what the experience would probably be and shied away from games not up their alley.

This week's post is about the exception that proves the rule.

A few months ago, I got Warriors of God from MMP. This is (again) part of their IGS line of games that have been so successful. Titles such as A Victory Lost, Storm over Stalingrad, and Fire in the Sky have received numerous accolades and awards. I was particularly looking forward to this title as I don't believe there has ever been a game that attempts to cover the entire Hundred Years War.

It's a gorgeous production, and might be Mark Mahaffey's best map to date. The tiles (no, I'm not calling them counters – they're big and thick, so they're tiles) are beautiful and look good on the map. The rules are also very attractive, though I have issues with the font choice and layout in the combat examples.

There are two scenarios in the game – The Hundred Years War (1337-1453), and The Lion in Winter which covers the 1135-1258 time frame. In the first you get Jeanne d'Arc, in the 2nd you get Robin Hood.

WoG is another area-impulse game. The catch with this one is that, due to the incredible length of time the game covers (12 turns over 100 years), your leaders will die during the game while others come of age to replace them. Also, the number of impulses in a turn is random – you roll a contested d6 for initiative, and the winner gets the loser's die roll (+ 2 more) in actions. The loser gets one less. Leaders are rated for rank, bravery, and command. You get points for controlling areas, and killing or capturing leaders. Hitting 20 points give you an auto-victory, and it's a zero-sum thing. (There's just one VP scale, not two.)

I think that's enough background. Let's look at the turn sequence. I'm going to go into this in a rather large amount of detail because it is within the turn sequence that my issues with the game mostly lie.

Each turn has 11 phases. They are:

1. Determine initiative
2. Action impulses
3. Resolve battles
4. Determine area control
5. Raise troops
6. Deploy unassigned troops
7. Exchange captured leaders
8. Determine leader survival
9. Place incoming leaders
10. Dispose of leaderless troops
11. Adjust score

Initiative I've covered. There are modifiers for having your king in your home area, or not having a king. (Only a 3-rank leader may be king.)

Now, here's where things start to get odd.

Then you do your impulses. On an impulse, you move a number of leaders from one area to any adjacent area. Only one may cross obstructed boundaries, two over clear, and three over rivers. (Yes, you can move more troops over a river than across clear ground.) One may cross a naval boundary, except the British may move two this way in the HYW scenario. The exception to this is what they call the “flypaper” rule. It's basically pinned leaders in the same area as enemy, with the addition that a control marker counts as a leader for this purpose only. Number of troops controlled by the leaders in these contested areas is irrelevant for this rule. If you move into an area containing enemy troops, you become the aggressor unless there's already an aggressor in that area.

After impulses are over, you fight battles in areas containing both sides' troops. If one side controls the area, he may offer siege. (In other words, hide in his castle.) In this era, sieges weren't reduced to science, and in many cases it's actually harder to successfully siege than it is to win a battle.

In a normal battle, the highest ranking leader on both sides is commander, and you generally roll his command rating (or number of troops in the ares whichever is less) in dice, needing 6s to hit. The number of dice can be increased if you have longbowmen around, and the to-hit roll can be reduced if you have better bravery than your opposing ranking leader. Each hit reduces the other side by a like number of strength points. (Except knights can absorb two hits.) You keep going until one side either retreats or is completely eliminated. The exception here is that if the aggressor scores zero hits on three consecutive rounds of combat the defender may eject them from the area. When you're rolling, say, four dice needing 6s, that's not uncommon.

After all the battles are complete, there are no areas left containing troops from both sides. Now you determine area control. If the area is controlled by your opponent, you reduce it to uncontrolled. If it's uncontrolled and not the home area of a leader inside, you must roll his rank or less to control it. As most leaders have a rank of 1 or 2, this is not easy. If it is the leader's home area, you get it automatically unless there's mercenaries around.

After that's resolved, you raise troops in areas you control. You get troops equal to the area rating (1 to 3). They're simply placed in the area. After this, you deploy them. Unassigned troops can move across adjacent areas you control to any leader that still has the capacity to control them. (Leaders can control three times their rank in troop strength – though few can bring that strength to bear in a battle.)

After all troops are raised and deployed, any captured leaders have equal ranks exchanged and the remainder score VPs for the capturer. (or, you can ransom them should you have controlled spaces to spare.)

Following this you roll for leader death. Leaders have a number on their counter indicating the turn in which they arrive. Subtract this from the current turn number and roll higher to have the leader survive. (This is actually displayed on a large, unnecessary, chart in the middle of the map.)

After some of your leaders die, and they will, you get to place new leaders. You get two per turn, and there will be at least two neutral leaders available for entry as well. (It's also possible that routed neutral leaders will come back for your opposition in this step.) If you place the leader in his home area, he gets his rank in troops. If not, he may claim any unassigned troops in the area he's placed.

You now dispose of leaderless troops. Finally, score victory points.

In my opinion, Warriors of God (as currently written) is fundamentally broken as a strategic game. As it currently stands, it's little better than Chutes & Ladders. Before I go into why, let's look at the distribution of ranks for the leaders (in the HYW scenario only:

* French: 10 1s, 8 2s, 6 3s.
* English: 14 1s, 4 2s, 6 3s.
* Neutral: 24 1s, 24 2s.

First these are the rules involved in the problem:

1. You may not transfer troops between leaders. Ever.
2. Controlling areas is random and difficult. (At best, you have a 50% chance of controlling an non-home area.)
3. Troops may only deploy through areas you control.

When you determine control, in nearly all cases you must roll the leaders rank or less. That means, averaging out all leaders, that you'll successfully control an area about 26% of the time. So, if you fan out four leaders trying to control space in completely uncontrolled areas, you'll get one of them on average. So, it's hard to create chains of controlled territory, making troop deployment difficult at best.

Let's couple that with leader death. Leaders have a 1-in-6 shot of dying the turn after they arrive, and only 28% will survive beyond their third turn. (This isn't even looking at those killed in combat. This is simply attrition.) It's entirely possible for a bad run of luck to wipe out 2/3 or more of the leaders you have in play. Since troops have already deployed, you're likely to have a large number of unassigned troops hanging around. When you place your new leaders (likely only three) you have to decide whether to reclaim existing troops, or place them in their homes to get new ones.

The chaos that's caused by this sequence of events is something you cannot plan for. The resulting board situation you may end up could be nothing like you had at the end of the impulses. It is exactly like Chutes & Ladders with some illusion of choice. You try to put yourself into a “good” position, but if have a run of bad luck, it doesn't matter. You could fail to control any of the four connected areas you were going for, and lose four of the six leaders you have in play. You then try to scramble with your new leaders and save what you can of the situation.

This isn't a strategy game. It's a luck fest. The combination of deploying raised troops through controlled spaces before leader death rules kick in means you cannot plan from turn to turn. This sequence of luck has a larger effect on the game than your action impulses, making your choices simply illusion.

I've seen it suggested that if the luck runs against you, the game's over quickly enough that you can play again and it likely won't happen. Chutes & Ladders works about the same. And my four year old gets bored by that one.

My response is, why would you want to? There's 12 turns in the game. It's highly likely that your position will be destroyed at least twice during the game, and with the difficulty of controlling space and getting troops to new leaders, recovery is nearly impossible. It's no consolation to know that it will happen to your opponent, too. It actually makes the game LESS fun.

You might be able to fix the game. I'd start by trying two things: make it so troops can deploy through controlled spaces AND uncontrolled spaces you occupy. And I'd have troops deploy twice – once before leader death, then any orphaned troops can deploy again after. But I'm not spending the time figuring out if that will work. I've got far better ways to spend my time than fix someone else's design.

This game is getting great response on BGG, and is currently ranked as the #32 wargame, but I'm simply incredulous by this response. It's an utter luck fest that takes about 2 hours longer than it should. There's no way you can make any sort of long-term plan as you WILL be shut down by the system and will be lucky to recover. Age of Imperialism got destroyed by people when it came out for similar problems – why should Warriors of God get a good response? It's baffling.

I was predisposed to liking this game. It's a theme I enjoy, it's playable in an evening, it's gorgeous, and it's coming from a line of games that have been excellent to this point. But, simply put, Warriors of God is a horrible strategy game.

And, I'm not even going into the way the rulebook was written. Jon, I give you credit for warning me – if I didn't like the rulebook for Devil's Cauldron, I probably should avoid Warriors of God. At least TDC is a mostly good wargame. Warriors of God, however is decidedly not. Had MMP followed the GMT example and published the rules before release, I would have saved my money and angst. I've actually already sold my copy, so I've at least recovered part of that.

But I want those 2.5 hours back.
Greg Parker
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A thorough account! I whole heartedly agree. I want my 6 hours back.
Now available in grape!
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070809
I don't think it's all that difficult to gain control of an area if you're paying attention to different leaders' home areas, especially considering that leaders can always deploy to their home areas. It's a slow process, to be sure, but the (solo) game I'm currently playing has pretty well-defined fronts and long supply lines.

As for losing troops due to leader death, it will certainly happen, but I feel like you can mitigate it quite a bit by having multiple leaders in an area or deploying leaders to an area where it's likely that someone will die. You can't account for everything, but you can figure out how likely a leader is to die in any given turn and plan around it. I've only lost one or two large stacks due to leader death, and it's not like you don't get a whole bunch of replacements every turn.

Scott DiBerardino (silentdibs)
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2. Controlling areas is random and difficult. (At best, you have a 50% chance of controlling an non-home area.)

As pointed out previously, this "problem" is mitigated if you use nobles to control their home areas, which limits things in a historical fashion.

Quote:
[...] So, if you fan out four leaders trying to control space in completely uncontrolled areas, you'll get one of them on average. So, it's hard to create chains of controlled territory, making troop deployment difficult at best.

Intentional and historical. These are not nation states, but leaders with personal oaths of fealty. It would be a couple hundred years before nationalism and centralized bureaucracies made modern nations possible. At the time, control was difficult at best.
Mick Mickelsen
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Although this game is more fun than Chutes and Ladders, I agree that it is very random. I enjoyed my few games, but it didn't hold my interest. I'm trading my copy. I'm constantly amazed how excited wargamers get about games that are mediocre. We seem less critical than the average Eurogamer.
Colin Hunter
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I really agree that this game is dominated by luck and it can be very decisive, but I do feel that there is a lot more going on in this game than it appears. For example knowing what leaders turn up later in the game seems like a key strategy, understanding what areas you want and what leaders to choose and going about getting them seems to be the most fundamental part of the game. The game is a lot more resilient than it appears, It often seems like a leader dying for example is a big event, but the fact is you are often only getting a marginal efficiency advantage over your opponent for having your leader last 1-2 extra turns, even with good leaders. Things tend to swing around a bit.

However I'm not trying to fully negate your points, from a good design aspect I would agree, much of the luck in the game seems unnecessary, but you have to view the game as a whole, despite seemingly bad design decisions, does it work? For me I'm not 100% sure to be honest, but there is enough of a game there for it to be more than chutes and ladders, significantly more, however it definitely failed and in terms of the IGS, I'd agree it is the weakest of the series that I have played. Anyway I'm glad some one gave this a negative review like this, what you said, need to be said and pointed out, there are plenty of shining reviews out there that don't really get into it.
Eric Landes
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Answering a whole bunch of people at once because, as I expected, I generated a little conversation.

ExcitingJeff wrote:
I don't think it's all that difficult to gain control of an area if you're paying attention to different leaders' home areas, especially considering that leaders can always deploy to their home areas. It's a slow process, to be sure, but the (solo) game I'm currently playing has pretty well-defined fronts and long supply lines.


sdiberar wrote:
As pointed out previously, this "problem" is mitigated if you use nobles to control their home areas, which limits things in a historical fashion.


And so you end up following the same path every game to match up with the leaders coming into the game? That doesn't sound like all that much fun for a game that's supposed to have high replay-ability.

sdiberar wrote:
Intentional and historical. These are not nation states, but leaders with personal oaths of fealty. It would be a couple hundred years before nationalism and centralized bureaucracies made modern nations possible. At the time, control was difficult at best.


Okay, so that rule is intentional and historical. So's the pasta rule in Campaign for North Africa. Doesn't mean it makes for a good game.

ibn_ul_khattab wrote:
I really agree that this game is dominated by luck and it can be very decisive, but I do feel that there is a lot more going on in this game than it appears. For example knowing what leaders turn up later in the game seems like a key strategy, understanding what areas you want and what leaders to choose and going about getting them seems to be the most fundamental part of the game. The game is a lot more resilient than it appears, It often seems like a leader dying for example is a big event, but the fact is you are often only getting a marginal efficiency advantage over your opponent for having your leader last 1-2 extra turns, even with good leaders. Things tend to swing around a bit.

However I'm not trying to fully negate your points, from a good design aspect I would agree, much of the luck in the game seems unnecessary, but you have to view the game as a whole, despite seemingly bad design decisions, does it work? For me I'm not 100% sure to be honest, but there is enough of a game there for it to be more than chutes and ladders, significantly more, however it definitely failed and in terms of the IGS, I'd agree it is the weakest of the series that I have played. Anyway I'm glad some one gave this a negative review like this, what you said, need to be said and pointed out, there are plenty of shining reviews out there that don't really get into it.


Thank you, Colin. I listened to your review of the game on your podcast (though I'll admit I was a tad distracted by other events at the time) and recall your hesitation on the game.

It's possible that with close study of the incoming leader pattern that you can mitigate the luck with careful leader placement. That would seem to lead to two possible game patterns:

1. Both sides follow the best pattern to control the most spaces, and conflict only arises when leaders' home areas clash. (No idea how common this is.)
2. One side decides to forgo mitigation and crash the others party. This opens up both sides to the whims of chance.

The first choice seems scripted and may as well just roll leader death each turn, while the second doesn't solve any of the inherent problems.

Look, I'm sure there are people out there who love this style of game. I personally am no enemy of chaos (I LOVE Combat Commander). However, to my eyes this game has too much luck in the wrong places to make it work.

Scott DiBerardino (silentdibs)
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And so you end up following the same path every game to match up with the leaders coming into the game? That doesn't sound like all that much fun for a game that's supposed to have high replay-ability.


Of course not. The choose-up of unaligned leaders alone provides replayability, not to mention the maligned random leader deaths. Of course, strategic concerns may mean you'd rather have a certain noble out leading the army rather than gathering political support at home. You get to decide.
11. Thou shalt not play worker placement games.
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    I have four and a half games in (one is half finished on Vassal) and am one of the guys that has really been advocating for this game, but I think there is something to keep in mind, for both hard-core wargamers and hard-core euro lovers -- luck does play a factor. No combat resolution table for you to manipulate, no cold equations or programmed openings to depend on. This is not chess -- you need to be prepared to change your strategy based on how the game plays out, surprises and all. Flexible players will excel, players that study moves and strategy guides are going to be very frustrated.

    With about a dozen hours under my belt I will tell you that as you get better at deploying troops, luck is very much mitigated, and it is my opinion that a player's fortunes are far more tied to even minor mistakes in the action impulses than any die roll. Given the number of rolls that occur each turn, it is very likely that your overall fortune will not vary significantly from your opponents, with one exception (I'll get to that in a moment).

    Here's my bullet points for when people ask me if they'll like it:

- You will roll dice. If you like Settlers of Catan, you will be comfortable with the level of luck involved. As in Settlers, the luck involved is mitigated with preparation. Like the stock market or real estate, you have to take calculated risks and have contingencies. If you manage your setbacks and seize your opportunities, you'll do well.

- It is much, much more of an area control game than a battle game. Area control area control area control. You don't win jack with battles. The French typically do well to swing east and south from Paris and generally can establish a string of controlled areas there. The English, in spite of their weaker leaders, have significant mobility advantages down the western coast, and their homeland is difficult to penetrate. As you play, you learn to work these advantages in your favor. Strategic decisions pay for turn after turn, tactical victories might buy you a couple of points for one.

-- Battle results are not all-or-nothing affairs. If you position yourself well a retreat can actually be strategically powerful, and smart players will use it to their favor. Retreats can land a leader in his home area when there weren't enough impulses for him to reach it. Retreats can also put you in a position to vacuum up mercenaries as they are retired from other battles. Position is more important than raw aggression (remember -- area control) and the sticky rule gives you ample opportunity to "stick" someone someplace they don't want to be. Forcing someone to "dig out" their heavy leader from the sticky rule forces them to make tough decisions about where they want to use their very limited number of moves.

-- It's a long game. It's euro-ish look should not be misconstrued to mean a short play time. Read the box cover -- it covers hundreds of years. Only one of my friends plays it with me. The others are willing to sit down for 90 minutes with any one title, and if that's your thing you won't like Warriors of God. Grogs won't bat an eye at three hours.

-- It's not the first of its kind and it is very likely that others will begin appearing in the west that may be more suitable to you. This is a tried and true game structure in Asia, so if it has aspects you don't like it's likely worth waiting for its cousins to appear here in the coming years. Don't spend money on something you won't like.

    I've played two games against a friend, and almost three against myself. The two against my friend I slowly walked away from him, establishing control in a unified region and using that to grow a country. In my games against myself, the score has been exceptionally tight -- two complete games went all the way to the end with the final score being a few points in favor of one side, one of each. In my current solo game on Vassal (which is as gorgeous as the real game) I've played seven turns, and the first five resulted in a dead tie each turn, in spite of significant changes of control. In turns six and seven the English have established a beachhead in France and are turning the southern corner. If you can establish a solid lead you'll likely keep it -- this is an economic/war game after all. The fact that I was able to solidly overtake my friend twice and play exceptionally hard-fought, close games against myself leads me to believe that I have taken most of the luck out of the equation, but it's only been five sessions so far.

    That thing I mentioned about troublesome luck -- it's the initiative roll. If you consistently win initiative, you are at a significant disadvantage, due to leader recruitment and some other rules. It's the one part of the game design that I would like to see modified, though I haven't decided how.

    My final statement is this -- don't spend time playing something you don't like! I'll confess that everything I've told you here I've learned over a dozen hours of play, and if you're not enjoying yourself enough to make that investment set it aside and play something else. It's currently difficult to find, so trading this critter away will be easy and very likely fruitful. Plenty of great games out there to choose from. Since I am fully confident that this game is not for everyone, there's no sense leaving a copy on a shelf when others are looking for it.

    Sorry for being so brief.

             Sag.



Last edited on 2008-10-03 22:43:04 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Merric Blackman
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Then you do your impulses. On an impulse, you move a number of leaders from one area to any adjacent area. Only one may cross obstructed boundaries, two over clear, and three over rivers. (Yes, you can move more troops over a river than across clear ground.)


Those blue boundaries aren't rivers. They're the borders between areas that have a river flowing from one to another, allowing river transport of troops. In the rulebook, they're called "River-Connected borders".

The rivers are marked faintly on the map and you can see how they work.

Cheers!
Dane Peacock
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Basilius wrote:
But I want those 2.5 hours back.


2.5 hours is just not enough time to reach certain conclusion about this game. Yeah, some mechanics are readily recognizable after a turn or two, but it certainly takes more time than that to grasp the strategy elements on a game of this scale. Having said that, uh, well, I agree with most of your impressions.

It has been a while since I have been so disappointed with a game. I really thought that I would like this and I spent mucho bucks for it. The theme and scope are brilliant. It is handsome, large, and tactilely pleasing. However, it just isn't that much fun. During the course of the game I feel disengaged, it gets repetitive, and it is too long for what it delivers.
Wendell A
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Well, I've played 8 games vs 4 different opponents (and a couple of solo games) and completely disagree. Sag summed it up very well I thought, as did tom.hancock in his review.

Not for everybody, sure. Doesn't mean it's broken. It ain't.
Brian Workman
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Luckfest? Not.

I'd be willing to bet that anyone who doesn't understand the chaos management aspect of this game and who thinks it is a luckfest will lose 8 of 10 times to someone who understands how to use long term strategies and manage the inevitable chaos.

The reviewer has not gained enough understanding to appreciate this. Maybe if he invested a few more hours he wouldn't want those 2.5 hours back.
Les Marshall
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After salivating while unfolding that lovely map and dismounting those huge counters this post almost brought to tears at the thought of never placing the virgin units on the European landscape. Curse you for this post.

Sag, you are a veritable paladin for riding to the rescue of my tattered dreams.
Steve Hope
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I've played the game several times, and think it's not a very good game. My reasons are more aligned with Sky Knight X's than with the OP's. I don't think there need to be better rules for control or redeployment. I think:

1. The administrative parts of the game take a long time and often require more thought to be put into them than you can get back in fun.

2. You can often experience a leader deathfest which the other side can use to get an insurmountable advantage. Then you have to hope something lucky happens the other direction.

3. The good part of the game (the impulse movement process) lasts only about 1/3 of each turn.

Put it this way--Age of Napoleon is a game which, like Warriors of God, has about half of its games clearly decided by chance with little the loser can do about it (at least within the skill level bands I've experienced). But Age of Napoleon takes less time and is more fun. And it doesn't get any play any more, so why should Warriors of God?

And it's a shame because I also really liked the look/approach of the game.
Wendell A
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stephenhope wrote:
I've played the game several times, and think it's not a very good game. My reasons are more aligned with Sky Knight X's than with the OP's. I don't think there need to be better rules for control or redeployment. I think:

1. The administrative parts of the game take a long time and often require more thought to be put into them than you can get back in fun.


To this all I can say is, huh?
Steve Hope
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:)

I just meant that a lot of the shuttling troops around is nontrivial stuff and needs to have thought devoted to it, but it's not particularly interesting work. And that the part of the turn which is largely adminstrative (troop deployment, leader placement and death, control rolls) takes >50% of the turn most of the time.

And the first part is to say that I didn't feel as though I needed to be able to shuttle my guys through occupied-but-unowned spaces so I could have contiguity of my army or anything. But I totally agree that it gets repetitive, is too long for what it delivers, and loses steam from the constant breaks from the action to see who died, where the new troops are, etc.

EDIT: Words left out.
Last edited on 2008-10-05 11:02:27 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Keith Todd
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KillerB wrote:
Luckfest? Not.

I'd be willing to bet that anyone who doesn't understand the chaos management aspect of this game and who thinks it is a luckfest will lose 8 of 10 times to someone who understands how to use long term strategies and manage the inevitable chaos.

The reviewer has not gained enough understanding to appreciate this. Maybe if he invested a few more hours he wouldn't want those 2.5 hours back.


Totally agree!
Christian Moura
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Played this 11 times in little more than a month. There is a lot of luck, and I do believe TLiW scenario is biased against the French. Other than that, it is a good game, and there is more depth to it than you would think after a first playing. I've played it FtF with 5 or 6 different people, and everyone seemed to like it. I should add that most games took less than 2h to complete.
(not so) newuser
I *really* like Warriors of God... but wouldn't dream of arguing that everyone will enjoy it as much as I do. The administrative stuff does take time. Turns can sometimes feel like a flowchart while you are learning the game, instead of speeding smoothly along. Luck is a factor in deciding the eventual winner and won't always balance out during the course of the game.

However, I think saying "it's not a good game" is a terrible mischaracterization. The game works exactly the way is was intended to, and gives players lots of strategic and tactical choices. (Ok, tactics are defintely more important than strategy... but there are bits of both that you have to use to be successful.)

Most important to me is the fact that this game always creates a real sense of character for each leader on the board, and a strong narrative for the overall action. The best game I can think of to compare it to is Combat Commander - not because of gameplay, but in how it can divide opinions between those people who "get it" and those who simply don't.*



*For the recond, I don't "get" Combat Commander and find that game to have been a huge waste of my money. At least Warriors of God was considerably less expensive and will go out of print much sooner, boosting resale value.
Doug Cooley
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Reviewing this game after one playing, and one where the Deansian Statistical Distortion Field ran amok, is a bit shortsighted. Some of us clearly see a deeper game here, one where the very point is chaos management (which I even wrote a blog entry on back in August), and some of us also see a luckfest even after repeated play. Huh, the same is said about Combat Commander, another revolutionary design.

Others have listed where the reviewer didn't grok how the game is played, so I won't repeat them again. I'll simply say that I know Eric and Mike, know that they both play a lot of games where most gamers won't "get it" the first time out. I suspect that the production values (and, of course, a particularly skewed set of combat and leader death results that stretch the limits of statistical probability, but that's what happens when Mike is in the room ;-)) led them to believe they were playing a strategy game rather than a historical consim. That's the only way I can explain Eric's comment concerning how knowing what reinforcements are coming ruins replayability. It's sort of like suggesting that because you know when Patton shows up in a Bulge game that there's no tension.

I'm certainly one to talk, as I abhor poor use of chaos in games, and in fact Eric's mention of Age of Imperialism (which I hope has been changed to what I'm sure must be Age of Empires III) is a game that *I* sold after a single play, but because I saw that the discovery mechanism, which at least one player must be *forced* into pursuing or the game cannot progress, has a big effect on the game. I also have seen design problems in other games ranging from the Minor Improvement card deal in Agricola (fortunately, easily solved through a simple drafting mechanism) to the card sequencing issues in Shifting Sands (initially dismissed by the designer, later repaired through rule changes). Then there are games I'm finding I just don't like, mostly (you guessed it) multiplayer strategy games like Twilight Imperium. But I understand that I don't like those games for aesthetic reasons, and so I don't denigrate them just because of what they are. Except Thunder's Edge, of course.;-)

Chaos is just another design element that we have in the toolbox, and while I agree that Warriors of God certainly "appears* to have a huge emphasis on luck, in fact what it does is constrain the players into playing in what I can only assume is a historically authentic manner, in much the same way that the attrition rules in Paths of Glory attempt to force players into keeping a solid front of units. After one short solo play I was seeing how important area control was, and that the only reliable way to get it was through understanding what leaders were coming in what turns and to assume that you would lose a leader if you moved it out of a controlled area with a large army (because even if the leader dies, it's much worse to hand those troops over to the enemy, a mistake that the developer even points out in the rules).

I've had people tell me that my own game blog entries, meant mostly to create discussion and get people thinking about games, have dictated purchasing decisions. Frankly, that horrifies me a bit, as I do understand that people like games for different reasons, and I certainly hope that people use me as a single data point rather than *the* authority. However, if someone was to read this session report and choose not to buy this game as a result, I think that they've been done a disservice. If you don't like the game for legitimate reasons, fine. It behooves* us to understand a consim design before we dismiss it, especially publicly.

Doug

*Just for you, Mike, just for you. ;-)
11. Thou shalt not play worker placement games.
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06070809

    Eric, what did your opponent think of the game?

             Sag.


Eric Landes
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Sagrilarus wrote:

    Eric, what did your opponent think of the game?

             Sag.




You can read his account here: http://twosidestothecoin.blogspot.com/2008/10/broken-warrior...

I'm going to be responding to all the feedback soon, but I'm prepping for a week-long business trip and simply don't have the time until I'm on the plane to the East Coast tomorrow.

Oh, and Doug? I did, in fact, mean Age of Imperialism in my comparison.
Doug Cooley
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Oh, you meant War! Age of Imperialism. I'd managed to wipe the memory of that game out of my head until this very moment. I've never played, but I did own a copy for a while, getting rid of it because the designer had no discipline over what rules to include or not include. Age of Empires III was one of his *better* designs, W!AoI one of his worst by all accounts, with the possible exception of that ACW game he did just before it.

My apologies for confusing what game you were comparing Warriors of God to. Given that both started as computer games with similar themes (civ-building) and have similar names, I think it was an understandable mistake, although still a mistake on my part. My point about the role of chaos in design still stands, although I don't have the experience with W!AoI to argue whether or not it was given a fair shake compared to Warriors. I'll admit that reading the rules to W!AoI didn't fill me with a lot of confidence in getting others to give it a try.

I have a lot of trouble using the acronym "WoG" for the game, btw, as Wog was a derogatory term used by the colonial British for their non-white subjects - Worthy Oriental Gentlemen. It was never intended in a complimentary fashion. It would be like having a game whose acronym was NiGR or KiK. Again, a personal preference, although one I'm not as consistent with as perhaps I'd wish. I mention this because I suspect some wonder why I don't just use the damned acronym.

For those unwilling to follow Eric's link to his opponent's report, I'll simply say that Mike didn't like the game either, but then I was the guy who told him he wouldn't like it because chaos hates him. Mike has, shall we say, a rather capricious relationship with the dice, hence the Deansian Statistical Distortion Field (tm). By his report, this was an anomaly game in every respect, although he has a *lot* of those. The running joke in our group is that he should just play the Simmons Napoleonic games and 18xx, since they have no dice or other significant luck element in them. There have been games where he has asked other people to roll the dice for him (often with success), although the Field extends on occasion to others, in this specific case to Eric. It is a chaotic and little understood phenomenon, deserving of serious scientific study.
Jon Gautier
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We call it WofG, not WoG.
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