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Ken Agress
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Cptnono wrote:
I hate to stray from a discussion of the role of government and the free market but the major news outlets are picking up on the scaryness of Obama.


Which ones are you referring to? Short of Republican-leaning sources most are pretty direct in stating that it's a load of spin and some go so far as to state that the relationships they refer to aren't worth mentioning.

As to whether or not Obama's in any danger (either now or after the election), I trust the Secret Service will have a great deal to say about that. Those guys really do know their stuff.
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Cptnono wrote:
I hate to stray from a discussion of the role of government and the free market but the major news outlets are picking up on the scaryness of Obama. McCain stirred it up the last few days but now is telling old ladies at town hall meetings to not be scared. It almost sounded like a concession that he may not be able to catch up and he doesn't want Obama to get shot.

I met a guy at the bar the other night. He was probably more angry than scared but started telling me with plenty of colorful language how long he thought an Obama presidency would last. I live in an decent suburb of a blue city in a blue state so this isn't common conversation. As much as I don't like the Obama, it would be a sad day for the country if he was elected and assassinated.


What's messed up is this level of anger, hatred, fear, and the fact that McCain has to say this at all.

I'm wondering just where does this nuttiness come from. I don't want to believe that Limbaugh is THAT persuasive.
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perfalbion wrote:


As to whether or not Obama's in any danger (either now or after the election), I trust the Secret Service will have a great deal to say about that. Those guys really do know their stuff.


That they do. And you bet that some mouthy crazies will be getting knocks at the door...
Ken Agress
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tstone wrote:
But then, ek will turn around and blame the government for the market screwing up and screwing the little guy, rather than placing the blame where it needs to be.


I've read nothing from him that would indicate that to be true. For example, I suspect he has little problem with SEC rules for auditing and financial reporting. They ensure that the market works. He may have an issue with leverage laws that set an upper limit on the amount of risk a financial institution can absorb ("Let 'em invest what they want and go under if they do a bad job - so long as their investors knew they assumed the risk").

But I don't see that he'd have any problem with regulation that actually ensured transparent and functioning markets.
Junius Stone
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perfalbion wrote:
tstone wrote:
But then, ek will turn around and blame the government for the market screwing up and screwing the little guy, rather than placing the blame where it needs to be.


I've read nothing from him that would indicate that to be true. For example, I suspect he has little problem with SEC rules for auditing and financial reporting. They ensure that the market works. He may have an issue with leverage laws that set an upper limit on the amount of risk a financial institution can absorb ("Let 'em invest what they want and go under if they do a bad job - so long as their investors knew they assumed the risk").

But I don't see that he'd have any problem with regulation that actually ensured transparent and functioning markets.



You and I seem to be coming away with completely different interpretations. I'm hearing repeatedly that he seems to be of the opinion that the government needs to butt out of the workings of the economy completely, and just let "market forces" do their thing, that they are the magic elixer that cures all ills, and government meddling of any sort does no good.

That's just what I'm reading, he's welcome to clarify.
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I'm just stating that I think you're reading too much into his posts. Yes, he's definitely interested in minimum government intervention. But that's largely on the taxation/spending/meddling with the market at its fundamental levels side of the equation.

For example, he's stated that he believes government has an appropriate role in regulating pollution, providing for the military, etc. He's against programs like welfare, food stamps, social security, etc. because they're an undue taking to provide for those who won't or didn't provide from themselves.
Junius Stone
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perfalbion wrote:

For example, he's stated that he believes government has an appropriate role in regulating pollution, providing for the military, etc.


Yes, but even this minimum amount was grudging. And I never even saw that thing about agreeing pollution needed regulating. Not that I'm denying it's there. I just haven't seen it. Just that surprises the hell out of me, and I know plenty of libertarians who would scream at such doctrinal heresy.
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tstone wrote:
perfalbion wrote:

For example, he's stated that he believes government has an appropriate role in regulating pollution, providing for the military, etc.


Yes, but even this minimum amount was grudging. And I never even saw that thing about agreeing pollution needed regulating. Not that I'm denying it's there. I just haven't seen it. Just that surprises the hell out of me, and I know plenty of libertarians who would scream at such doctrinal heresy.


Truth be told, I am an anarcho-capitalist so I favor the elimination of monopoly government. That shouldn't be confused with a society without laws (including pollution management since that's a clear property rights case), military, police, courts, etc. However, I realize that monopoly government is here to stay so as long as we do have one, I want it to be as small as possible limited to essential services such as contract enforcement and property protection.

If markets could be abolished and government could provide goods and services in a more efficient and just manner, then swell, but the evidence is overwhelming to me that supposed "free-market flaws" are false or gross exagerations. The market isn't perfect nor meant to be, but failure is what makes material progress possible since it allows that best to succeed. Markets foster cooperation and good-will allowing people to freely trade and benefit from those who are "greedy" wanting to make money by serving others.

Incentives are quite the opposite where government is concerned. Notice the irony here. Those who fear market abuse based on greed or some corrupting human nature want to fix the problems by putting these same people in control of the government, which has the exclusive monopoly on force. But why should people all of a sudden act like angels when they get in power? If humans have a propensity to act greedy, dangerous, and ruthless, where do you think they could do more damage? History should be obvious and that's why citizens should focus their concerns of abuse on the state.
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eknauer wrote:
Those who fear market abuse based on greed or some corrupting human nature want to fix the problems by putting these same people in control of the government, which has the exclusive monopoly on force.


In a democratic system, yes. Is this a guarantee against abuse of power? Course not. Will we eventually find some better system? I hope so. Is that system the free market? I don't think so.

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But why should people all of a sudden act like angels when they get in power?


They don't. But keep in mind that small and especially large co-operations do wield significant power as well.

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History should be obvious and that's why citizens should focus their concerns of abuse on the state.


History is anything but obvious. Citizens should be concerned about the state. But in a democracy at least they have some limited means of influencing and participating in government. Instruments that are not available for influencing the market.
Junius Stone
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Exactly. The government does just that, GOVERNS. It is there to do the things that markets and individuals can't do. And unlike markets, a democratic government is designed to be under the will of the people. A market responds to profit and loss.

Imperfect as it is, it works.
Ken Agress
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eknauer wrote:
Markets foster cooperation and good-will allowing people to freely trade and benefit from those who are "greedy" wanting to make money by serving others.


Except when they don't. That's not a snide comment, just a recognition of reality. Markets can absolutely be the positive force you present them as. But they can also cause people or corporations to make very bad decisions that don't foster cooperation or good-will. Individuals participants within a market can make decisions that have a net negative impact on others, their own companies/themselves, and society.

But that should be expected. People are people and no single system will ever stop us from demonstrating both our best and worst traits.

Quote:
Those who fear market abuse based on greed or some corrupting human nature want to fix the problems by putting these same people in control of the government,


Depends on what you mean by "the same people." If you're referring to people in general, then this is partially accurate.

Where it isn't is that I get to vote for the people that represent me. And if I really want to get involved, I can run for office myself. I can't decide tomorrow that I should be able to look into Wachovia or Enron's books. Those elections provide us (in theory) with a check on corruption, greed, and abuse in government. And we've actually seen these things work with incumbents losing election and Congress changing hands.

Quote:
But why should people all of a sudden act like angels when they get in power?


You seem to draw the conclusion that someone's espoused this view. I know I haven't. There are good politicians and there are bad. We hope to keep the good ones around (responding to constituents, trying to think ahead, making good decisions) and bounce the bad ones out. Or send 'em to jail if they break the law.

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If humans have a propensity to act greedy, dangerous, and ruthless, where do you think they could do more damage?


In either place, frankly.

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History should be obvious and that's why citizens should focus their concerns of abuse on the state.


Do you think anyone's suggesting otherwise?
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Ah, Meerkat! Such an entertainer!

Meerkat wrote:
I am an independent. Obama scares me because he is so extremely "left".


What is extremely "left" to you, given that the US is now bailing out its banks like a Communist state?

Meerkat wrote:
Just like Bush scared me 8 years ago because he was so extrememly "right" and was going to, for at least awhile, have a congress of his same party so there would not be any "checks and balance" to the system. I was very happy when Jeffers changed his party to Independent and gave the Senate to the Dems after Bush got elected.

I fear Obama because I fear any extremeist who is given a chance to have power with minimal limits. Which with the Dems in control of congress is what he would have.


This doesn't pass the smell test, Meerkat. You say Obama is an extremist way on the Left, but I think you'd grant that he's not so Left as Kucinich or Nader. But then you're concerned about the balance of powers. Which is it? Both? Because I don't believe that there are voters who, in the face of all the crises we face today, have the luxury of primly voting for balance of powers. If they do, they don't get what's going on nowadays.

Meerkat wrote:
Now throw into the mix that he doesn't have a lot of experience and that we don't have a lot of voting record to look at to see if in the past his words have lined up with his actual actions and it becomes even more scary.


Again, you are great at bringing up GOP talking points. I think that is really where you reside since you resurrect them at whim.

Meerkat wrote:
But 8 years ago I voted "FOR" Gore, not against Bush, because I have admired Gore for years. This year I will be voting "FOR" McCain for the same reason. I have admired him for years. So my genuine fear of Obama, real though it is, isn't going to affect my vote.


I fundamentally do not understand how someone could vote for Gore in 2000 and then, at this pass, vote for McCain in 2008, if nothing else is influencing your decision.

Here's your man. Brava!

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_mav...

Meerkat wrote:
The only Democrat they could have put up to win my Vote against McCain would have been Gore or possibly Lieberman.


Who have NOTHING in common. I'm sorry, they do have one thing in common.

Meerkat wrote:
If the Republicans had put up a strong right wing choice I would have considered voting for Obama. But they didn't. They gave me a moderate to vote for.


In your dreams. There is nothing moderate about a pro-war, anti-abortion, tax-cutting, look-the-other-way-on-torture McCain. Only someone on the Right would possibly say that.

Meerkat wrote:
BTW I didn't fear Clinton, I voted for him. Partly because I think the power structure should change every 8-12 years to keep balance.


I'm calling you out on this, for what it's worth. I don't believe a word of it. You voted for Clinton AND Gore, but suddenly, when the nation is wracked by a series of crises, the "moderate" fear-mongering republican is the answer.

Yeah, right! :what:
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Quote:
perfalbion

Except when they don't. That's not a snide comment, just a recognition of reality. Markets can absolutely be the positive force you present them as. But they can also cause people or corporations to make very bad decisions that don't foster cooperation or good-will. Individuals participants within a market can make decisions that have a net negative impact on others, their own companies/themselves, and society.


This is too vague to have any meaning. When corporations succeed, they create jobs, growth and prosperity. When they fail, that means someone else is doing a better job at doing these things (failure is good in this context). When governments fail, terrible things happen. For one thing, they have the capacity to inflict death and destruction since they have access to weaponry compared to the market. Also, while the market allows bankruptcy (unless they're getting bailed out by government), government doesn't go away and is often rewarded for its failures by increased budgets. This is an important distinction that explains why governent is such a greater threat and inherently inefficient.

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Depends on what you mean by "the same people." If you're referring to people in general, then this is partially accurate.

Where it isn't is that I get to vote for the people that represent me. And if I really want to get involved, I can run for office myself. I can't decide tomorrow that I should be able to look into Wachovia or Enron's books. Those elections provide us (in theory) with a check on corruption, greed, and abuse in government. And we've actually seen these things work with incumbents losing election and Congress changing hands.


This is the fairy tale version of democracy. In reality, incumbents get reelected over 90% of the time. Also, voters are unbelievably ignorant of political knowledge and current events as studies have shown. Instead of an enlightened citizenry making intelligent decisions, we have a rent-seeking, special-interest swamp.

Quote:
You seem to draw the conclusion that someone's espoused this view. I know I haven't. There are good politicians and there are bad. We hope to keep the good ones around (responding to constituents, trying to think ahead, making good decisions) and bounce the bad ones out. Or send 'em to jail if they break the law.


See Public Choice theory. From Wiki-

"Public choice theory is often referred to when discussing how individual political decision-making results in policy that conflicts with the overall desires of the general public. For example, many special interest and pork barrel projects are not the desire of the overall democracy. However, it makes sense for politicians to support these projects. It may benefit them psychologically as they feel powerful and important. It can also benefit them financially as it may open the door to future wealth as lobbyists (after they retire). The project may be of interest to the politician's local constituency, increasing district votes or campaign contributions. The politician pays little to no cost to gain these benefits, as they are spending public tax money. Special interest lobbyists are also behaving rationally. They can gain government favors worth millions or billions for relatively small investments. They face a risk of losing out to their competitors if they don't seek these favors. The taxpayer is also behaving rationally. The cost of defeating any one government give-away is very high, while the benefits to the individual taxpayer are very small. Each citizen pays only a few pennies or a few dollars for any given government favor, while the costs of ending that favor would be many times higher. Everyone involved has rational incentives to do exactly what they're doing, even though the desire of the general constituency is opposite. (It is notable that the political system considered here is very much that of the United States, with 'pork' a main aim of individual legislators; in countries such as Britain with strong party systems the issues would differ somewhat.)

...One of the basic claims that results from public choice theory is that good government policies in a democracy are an underprovided public good, because of the rational ignorance of the voters. Each voter is faced with a tiny probability that his vote will change the result of the elections, while gathering the relevant information necessary for a well-informed voting decision requires substantial time and effort. Therefore, the rational decision for each voter is to be generally ignorant of politics and perhaps even abstain from voting. Rational choice theorists claim that this explains the gross ignorance of most citizens in modern democracies as well as low voter turnout. Rational abstention does, however, create the "paradox of voting" whereby strict costs benefit analysis implies that nobody should vote.

While good government tends to be a pure public good for the mass of voters, there may be many interest groups that have strong incentives for lobbying the government to implement specific inefficient policies that would benefit them at the expense of the general public. For example, lobbying by the sugar manufacturers might result in an inefficient subsidy for the production of sugar, either direct or by protectionist measures. The costs of such inefficient policy are dispersed over all citizens, and therefore unnoticeable to each individual. On the other hand, the benefits are shared by a small special-interest group with a strong incentive to perpetuate the policy by further lobbying. The vast majority of voters will be unaware of the effort due to rational ignorance. Therefore, theorists expect that numerous special interests will be able to successfully lobby for various inefficient policies. In public choice theory, such scenarios of inefficient government policies are referred to as government failure — a term akin to market failure from earlier theoretical welfare economics."

This explanation is much more rooted in reality than the picture you paint. Incentives matter and explain why market problems are trivial compared to predictable government failures.
Last edited on 2008-10-12 12:22:55 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
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eknauer wrote:
When they fail, that means someone else is doing a better job at doing these things (failure is good in this context).


This ignores companies failing for non-competitive reasons. Enron didn't go under because they got out-competed, it went under because they made bad internal decisions and cooked the books.

If there's a part of your arguments that I find hollow, it's the assumption that companies only fail because they get out-competed. I worked for a dot-bomb company that managed to burn through $185 million in startup funding and revenue in just over 18 months because of atrocious executive decisions. Had they adopted a business plan that made more sense, they could have been quite successful.

Markets are full of companies that compete effectively, those that don't, those that "behave well" (following the law, accounting standards, etc.), and those that don't. But there are also companies that have a good product priced well that people want that still can't stay open because of poor leadership. I think a great current example of this now is Ford - they are nowhere near aggressive enough in revamping their product line and keeping in tune with their customers.

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government doesn't go away and is often rewarded for its failures by increased budgets.


Except this typically results in fairly dramatic shifts in the political landscape, which changes our government. One could argue this is good, one could argue otherwise as well. But you typically don't get the same government you had before. Witness 1992 (presidential), 1994 (congressional), 2006 (congressional) and this year.

Quote:
This is the fairy tale version of democracy. In reality, incumbents get reelected over 90% of the time.


There's nothing fairy tale about it, Eric. It's the way that people voted. And when people get fed up, then there's a dramatic change in the landscape. In 2006, the Republicans lost a net of 13% of their seats in the house. They also lost 6 in the senate or 11% of their total seats and 40% of the seats they had up for election.

Now, I happen to agree with you that we still return too many incumbents, but that's a different discussion. If you'd like to discuss campaign financing or our system of voting, then we should open a new thread. I also happen to think that this reflects on the subject of the article you pointed to.

It's also likely that our views of government are different because it's swinging back towards a government of my liking. :)
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BoardGameGeek » Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics
Re: Why does Obama scare you?
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perfalbion
This ignores companies failing for non-competitive reasons. Enron didn't go under because they got out-competed, it went under because they made bad internal decisions and cooked the books.


Comments from my geeklist concerning Enron (not a free-market based company)-

“Enron provides a perfect example of the dangers of corporate subsidies. The company was (and is) one of the biggest beneficiaries of Export-Import Bank subsidies. The Ex-Im bank, a program that Congress continues to fund with your tax dollars, essentially makes risky loans to foreign governments and businesses for projects involving American companies. The Bank, which purports to help developing nations, really acts as a naked subsidy for certain politically-favored American corporations- especially corporations like Enron that lobbied hard and gave huge amounts of cash to both political parties. Its reward was more that $600 million in cash via six different Ex-Im financed projects.

One such project, a power plant in India, played a big part in Enron's demise. The company had trouble selling the power to local officials, adding to its huge $618 million loss for the third quarter of 2001. Former president Clinton worked hard to secure the India deal for Enron in the mid-90s; not surprisingly, his 1996 campaign received $100,000 from the company. Yet the media makes no mention of this favoritism. Clinton may claim he was 'protecting' tax dollars, but those tax dollars should never have been sent to India in the first place.

Enron similarly benefitted from another federal boondoggle, the Overseas Private Investment Corporation. OPIC operates much like the Ex-Im Bank, providing taxpayer-funded loan guarantees for overseas projects, often in countries with shaky governments and economies. An OPIC spokesman claims the organization paid more than one billion dollars for 12 projects involving Enron, dollars that now may never be repaid. Once again, corporate welfare benefits certain interests at the expense of taxpayers.

The point is that Enron was intimately involved with the federal government.

…Few in Congress seem to understand how the Federal Reserve system artificially inflates stock prices and causes financial bubbles. Yet what other explanation can there be when a company goes from a market value of more than $75 billion to virtually nothing in just a few months? The obvious truth is that Enron was never really worth anything near $75 billion, but the media focuses only on the possibility of deceptive practices by management, ignoring the primary cause of stock overvaluations: Fed expansion of money and credit.

The Fed consistently increased the money supply (by printing dollars) throughout the 1990s, while simultaneously lowering interest rates. When dollars are plentiful, and interest rates are artificially low, the cost of borrowing becomes cheap. This is why so many Americans are more deeply in debt than ever before. This easy credit environment made it possible for Enron to secure hundreds of millions in uncollateralized loans, loans that now cannot be repaid. The cost of borrowing money, like the cost of everything else, should be established by the free market- not by government edict.”


Quote:
If there's a part of your arguments that I find hollow, it's the assumption that companies only fail because they get out-competed.


I agree with you on this. They fail because of artificial credit expansion (via Federal Reserve) inevitably leading to a boom/bust cycle. I recommend my geeklist for how this occurs-

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/33566


Quote:
I worked for a dot-bomb company that managed to burn through $185 million in startup funding and revenue in just over 18 months because of atrocious executive decisions. Had they adopted a business plan that made more sense, they could have been quite successful.


The dot com bust was predicted by the free-market Austrians long before it happened. See Reisman’s August 1999 piece-

http://www.capitalism.net/articles/stockmkt.htm

“What is directly and immediately responsible for the current bull market is a sustained and rapid increase in the demand for stocks. This increase in demand in turn has been the result of the repeated pouring into the market of large sums of new and additional money, created by the banking system under the umbrella of the Federal Reserve System and related government intervention

…Today, the new and additional money is paper, i.e., checkbook money, which is being rapidly created virtually out of thin air and is being spent mainly in the stock market, with the result of comparably high and, almost certainly, comparably fleeting valuations of many securities. Since December 1995, the money supply as measured by M2 has grown by almost twenty-five percent. Even more significantly, the increase in deposits specifically of the kind commonly held with brokerage houses, i.e., so-called money-market-mutual-fund accounts, has been at double digit rates: 17.5% in both 1996 and 1997 and 29% in 1998.

…The end of the stock-market boom is something earnestly to be desired. This is because its continuation entails a growing state of mania, in which fortunes are created without any rational cause, merely by virtue of the pressure of a flood of money seeking outlet in channels no more real than empty hopes and dreams, and in which increasing numbers of otherwise highly intelligent and perfectly sane people are lured into sacrificing the serious work of their chosen occupations to the pursuit of such causeless and ultimately ephemeral wealth.

At the same time, because the mere inflation-induced appearance of wealth is made to substitute for the fact of wealth, the boom gives rise to a consumption that takes place at the expense of essential saving and capital accumulation and thus serves ultimately to cause impoverishment.”


Quote:
It's also likely that our views of government are different because it's swinging back towards a government of my liking.


I'd rather have a Democrat in power pushing big government policies than Republicans who give lip service to the free-market but end up discrediting it for various reasons.
Last edited on 2008-10-12 18:39:08 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Natus wrote:
I'm calling you out on this, for what it's worth. I don't believe a word of it.


You're calling Meerkat a liar? How gentlemanly of you!

Hey, I voted for Mondale -- the guy who lost in such an amazing landslide he only won Minnesota and Washington DC. Call me a liar, too, why don't you?

But no wonder you're out attacking people and calling them liars. You're taking your marching orders from Jann Wenner. Heh.
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Eric, you're still missing my point.

Markets as abstractions are perfect things. They set the right price, the find the equilibrium, they respond to changing needs. On the books they're beautiful things that do nothing wrong.

Except those markets don't actually exist. Markets are comprised of some combination of companies and people. And the companies are run by people. Those people can choose to follow laws, provide safe products, pay labor a fair wage for their efforts, etc. Or they can choose not to.

Enron didn't fail because of their relationship with government. They failed because their executives chose to expose the company to some very risky investments, play with the books in inappropriate ways, and enrich themselves in favor of their shareholders and employees.

And you didn't need to look to the Austrian school to see the dot-bomb bust coming - it was written on the wall from the moment it started. People decided that it was OK to invest in a company with no profits and no business plan that would realistically demonstrate profits in any reasonable period of time. They ignored the fundamentals of the companies and the market and went chasing a payoff that would require decades to achieve because the firms made no money.

And that's where markets fail - the fact that they don't exist as abstract things in textbooks and whiteboards where you can run the right equation, turn the right crank, and get the right answer. Markets fail because they involve people and people can make bad choices that impact other people.

So while I understand that market dynamics are a force we want to harness, let's also recognize that just as there will never be a true utopia for government there will never be a true utopia for markets either.

Anything that involves people will have inherent flaws. It's just the way that we are.
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Quote:
perfalbion

Enron didn't fail because of their relationship with government. They failed because their executives chose to expose the company to some very risky investments, play with the books in inappropriate ways, and enrich themselves in favor of their shareholders and employees.


In a free-market without corporation subsidies, there are no rational incentives to take risky (in the careless sense) investments and cook the books. In the rare case that does happen, then the market will punish those who do. In other words, it’s the exception rather than the rule, whereas government corruption and waste is the norm. In the face of competition, profits encourage entrepreneurs to improve products and avoid loss for fear of bankruptcy. Compare this incentive structure to government bureaus where failure translates to more appropriations (taxpayer money) since they exist outside the world of profit and bankruptcy.


Quote:
And you didn't need to look to the Austrian school to see the dot-bomb bust coming - it was written on the wall from the moment it started. People decided that it was OK to invest in a company with no profits and no business plan that would realistically demonstrate profits in any reasonable period of time.


Except the Austrian school explains how the newly created money gets injected into the system and gets invested unwisely (malinvestments). The greater the intervention, the greater the bust.


Quote:
They ignored the fundamentals of the companies and the market and went chasing a payoff that would require decades to achieve because the firms made no money.


To be expected when you receive corporate subsidies and have bogus information caused by Federal Reserve tampering of the money supply and interest rates.

This really isn't that difficult to understand. Interest rates are determined by people's willingness to save or spend, which is always fluctuating. If the interest rate is not based on this, but instead artificially manipulated and lowered by The Fed, then investments that would otherwise not take place are initiated by new loanable funds. The new projects (overinvestments) that get launched inevitably go bust once people's spending habits correct back to their natural state.

Quote:
And that's where markets fail - the fact that they don't exist as abstract things in textbooks and whiteboards where you can run the right equation, turn the right crank, and get the right answer. Markets fail because they involve people and people can make bad choices that impact other people.


Compared to Keynesians and Monetarists, Austrians use very little math when it comes to explaining the economy. The Federal Reserve is in charge of the monetary system and its decisions affect the economy in dramatic ways. There’s nothing abstract about it.

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So while I understand that market dynamics are a force we want to harness, let's also recognize that just as there will never be a true utopia for government there will never be a true utopia for markets either. Anything that involves people will have inherent flaws. It's just the way that we are.


Thus, why those who have the guns must be neutered. :)
Last edited on 2008-10-12 21:22:00 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
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Found this quote from Mises (Austrian) written in 1931.

"The appearance of periodically recurring economic crises is the necessary consequence of repeatedly renewed attempts to reduce the 'natural' rates of interest on the market by means of banking policy. The crises will never disappear so long as men have not learned to avoid such pump-priming, because an artificially stimulated boom must inevitably lead to crisis and depression....

All attempts to emerge from the crisis by new interventionist measures are completely misguided. There is only one way out of the crisis: Forgo every attempt to prevent the impact of market prices on production. Give up the pursuit of policies which seek to establish interest rates, wage rates and commodity prices different from those the market indicates. This may contradict the prevailing view. It certainly is not popular. Today all governments and political parties have full confidence in interventionism and it is not likely that they will abandon their program. However, it is perhaps not too optimistic to assume that those governments and parties whose policies have led to this crisis will some day disappear from the stage and make way for men whose economic program leads, not to destruction and chaos, but to economic development and progress."

Too bad.
Nothing says psycho like a baby in a tin hat.
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eknauer wrote:
Give up the pursuit of policies which seek to establish interest rates, wage rates and commodity prices different from those the market indicates.


While the arguments you quote certainly advocate aganist providing
credit. The wage rates part of your conclusion seems to be an
extrapolation wiht no foundation from what I have read.

Did I miss something?
Nothing says psycho like a baby in a tin hat.
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eknauer wrote:
Quote:
perfalbion

Enron didn't fail because of their relationship with government. They failed because their executives chose to expose the company to some very risky investments, play with the books in inappropriate ways, and enrich themselves in favor of their shareholders and employees.


In a free-market without corporation subsidies, there are no rational incentives to take risky (in the careless sense) investments and cook the books.


If you look at lotteries rationally, there is no reason to play.
Yet people do.
People participate in markets.
People also have a good abaility to behave in irrational ways,
or ways that appear to be irrational to an observer.
If you are risking someone elses money for your own profit
is it irrational to make very large risks?

eknauer wrote:

In the rare case that does happen, then the market will punish those who do.

Lehamn brothers got punished.
The people who ran lehman brothers got handsomely rewarded.
This is not an isolated case. Corporate governance quite
often divorces risk from reward. For instance I am paid
annually so all I am looking for is to look good annually.
So I am motivated to make deals that for the short term
look very good but not care too much about long term.
I.E. get big bonus jump ship when I look good let others
carry the can when it turns sour.

eknauer wrote:

In other words, it’s the exception rather than the rule, whereas government corruption and waste is the norm.

Worked in quite a few companies and I would say in any large
organisation corruption and waste is the norm. How many geeks
come to BGG on the company dime?

eknauer wrote:

In the face of competition, profits encourage entrepreneurs to improve products and avoid loss for fear of bankruptcy.


Assumption of complete knowledge, the bigger an enterprise
the less complete the knowledge.

eknauer wrote:

Compare this incentive structure to government bureaus where failure translates to more appropriations (taxpayer money) since they exist outside the world of profit and bankruptcy.


That is a pessimistic view, which is not divorced from
reality but there is no hard that says it must be so.

Most of our countries drugs are bought through a government
agency which has a very limited budget. It does a pretty good
job. As opposed to our recreation agency SPARK which basically
pays some blokes Hundreds of thousands with next to no oversight.
Ken Agress
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
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eknauer wrote:
In a free-market without corporation subsidies, there are no rational incentives to take risky (in the careless sense) investments and cook the books.


I don't accept this as being the case. Businesses take risk for a range of reasons. They invest in product development, researching new technologies, creating more efficient business processes, etc. These risks are intended to provide competitive advantage.

Some companies even exist exclusively to pursue risky investments (such a VC funds or firms). The incentive to risk is the reward that it will pay off.

Now couple this with what motivates individuals - success, salaries, bonuses, promotions. In some firms and industries, these are based on taking a risk (notably investing) and having it pay off. And when these risks either are not paying off or failing to pay off sufficiently, the individual's motivation to advance or get their bonus may override their duty to the firm to be honest and forthright and accept that it didn't work out. When this occurs, you get the disaster at Enron or Barings.

So while the company (as an entity) may have not motivation to behave as you state, the individuals within the corporation are entirely capable of ignoring what's good for the company, good for the shareholders, and even ultimately good for themselves.

This is common to any human endeavor, mind you (and I'll readily include government). People make bad decisions, things go wrong, and one hopes that the damage is relatively limited. That's why transparency in government is important, accuracy in accounting, etc.

But I think we've hijacked this thread enough. :) You believe that the market will ultimately function at maximum efficiency, I'm quite skeptical. I believe that government can be a positive force that addresses some areas more effectively than markets, you're skeptical. I think we ultimately need to leave it at that.
Víctor Pérez
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eknauer wrote:
Those who fear market abuse based on greed or some corrupting human nature want to fix the problems by putting these same people in control of the government, which has the exclusive monopoly on force.


Not necessarily. Free market isn't the only alternative to a modern State.
Eric Knauer
United States
Heathrow
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Quote:
muntmeister
If you are risking someone elses money for your own profit
is it irrational to make very large risks?

Apply this logic to government.
Quote:
Lehamn brothers got punished.
The people who ran lehman brothers got handsomely rewarded.

Not nearly as much as if they stuck around.

Quote:
This is not an isolated case. Corporate governance quite
often divorces risk from reward. For instance I am paid
annually so all I am looking for is to look good annually.
So I am motivated to make deals that for the short term
look very good but not care too much about long term.
I.E. get big bonus jump ship when I look good let others
carry the can when it turns sour.
Worked in quite a few companies and I would say in any large
organisation corruption and waste is the norm. How many geeks
come to BGG on the company dime?

Yet millions of profitable corporations exist, flourish, and make trillions of dollars.
Quote:
Assumption of complete knowledge, the bigger an enterprise
the less complete the knowledge.

Economies of scale exist. When exceeded, smaller enterprises takeover the larger ones.
Eric Knauer
United States
Heathrow
Florida
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Quote:
While the arguments you quote certainly advocate aganist providing
credit.


How so?

Quote:
The wage rates part of your conclusion seems to be an
extrapolation wiht no foundation from what I have read.
Did I miss something?


The context was The Great Depression when government was trying to prop up wages instead of letting them fall to their natural rate.
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