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Philip Eve
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Brass » Forums » General
Website version of Brass
Some of you may have played with the computer version of Brass that I released about a month and a half ago. ( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/337292 )

Several people asked for a version that people can play with each other across the internet, so I looked into the idea. I came to the conclusion that rather than program in netplay capabilites to the existing program, it would be simpler and cheaper to just create a new version that runs via a website, using some of the existing code. Simpler because there's a little less to worry about in the area of security, hosting and machine compatibility issues, and cheaper because I already control some webspace that I can use for free and which offers PHP and MySQL functionality.

I'm now in the middle of writing a website that implements games of Brass, so that people can play each other from remote locations (and games will persist when you turn off your computer, so people can play against each other over a period of time, rather than in one sitting, if they want to.)

I do not currently plan on implementing team games. It is possible I might add that later. I am planning on implementing 2-player games, with the rules for 2-player being the rules suggested by Henkka ( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/257485 ).

What I have had to think about is what happens if a player leaves the game. I do not have any expertise at all in AI, so I am not inclined to attempt to write a computer program to actually play the game at this time. (A friend who used to study computing and had an interest in AI and wants to get back into it has said that he might have a go at writing one at some point.) But people leaving games is unfortunately a problem that has to be contended with in the world of Internet games, so I feel the need to make the system able to cope with the number of players falling over the course of a game.

Obviously, if a game has only two players and one player leaves, then the game ends immediately and the remaining player is the winner. What if there are 3 or 4 players and one leaves? Here are the thoughts I have had on the matter.

The leaving player's tiles and Canal or Rail Links are not removed from the board. Rather, they become "orphan tiles" and "orphan links". They are coloured blue and they remain in their original positions on the board.

Orphan links are, to each remaining player, just like canal or rail links owned by another player. So, they can be used to move cotton and coal. At the end of the Canal Phase, orphan canal links are removed just like owned canal links. Nobody scores points for an orphan link at the end of either Phase. Orphan links cannot be built over - you can never build over a constructed canal or rail link of any kind.

Orphan tiles are somewhat like industry tiles owned by another player. An orphan Coal Mine or Iron Works that has cubes on it retains those cubes. If during the game a player needs to use coal and/or iron to take some action, then the rules for orphan cube sources are the same as for any other source. So for example, if an orphan coal mine is the single closest source of coal, then it is the source of coal you must use. An unflipped orphan Port can be used to sell Cotton (whereupon it flips). An orphan Port can be used to sell Cotton to the Distant Market and it can be used to sell Coal to the Demand Track from a newly constructed Coal Mine. Orphan Cotton Mills and Shipyards have no function, though if they are flipped then they score points as usual for the owners of constructed canal or rail links to their locations. As with orphan links, nobody scores points for flipped orphan tiles at the end of either Phase.

An orphan tile can be built over by any player as though it were his own tile. That is, in order to build over an orphan tile you must be building the same type of tile, and the tile you are building must be of a higher tech level than the tile you want to build over. However, you are permitted to build over an orphan Cotton Mill or Port despite it not belonging to you, and you are allowed to build over an orphan Coal Mine or Iron Works despite the cube scarcity condition not being satisfied and/or despite there being a free industry space in the same location where you could build that type of tile.

At the end of the Canal Phase, all orphan tiles are removed from the board, even if they are Tech Level 2 or higher.

If there are 4 players and one leaves, then according to the rules for 3 player games there should suddenly be two more rounds in the Phase. However if it is Round 7, say, when this happens then it could be massively unbalancing. So it seems clear that extra rounds should be added only if the departing player departs sufficiently early in the Phase. I propose that if it is Round x or earlier when a player departs from a game, then two rounds are added to the current Phase. In the Canal Phase x is equal to 4 and in the Rail Phase it is equal to 3.

In the Rail Phase, then, it is possible that as many as 24 cards will have been played when a player departs, with the extra rounds still required. This corresponds to a 3-player game in which an extra 6 cards have been played. In a 3 player game there are normally 6 cards left over in the Rail Phase, so what will happen is that all 66 cards will be used rather than the usual 60.

In the Canal Phase it is possible that as many as 28 cards will have been played when a player departs, with the extra rounds still required. This corresponds to a 3-player game in which an extra 7 cards have been played. In a 3 player game there are normally 9 cards left over in the Canal Phase, so what will happen is that 64 cards will be used instead of the usual 60.

In each case, the departing player's hand is shuffled and placed at the bottom of the draw deck. It is not shuffled into the draw deck.

If the departing player leaves during the Canal Phase, then of course there are 10 rounds in the Rail Phase as is usual for a 3-player game.

If there are 3 players and one leaves, then the number of rounds in the game (according to Henkka) should not change. However, there are a variety of things that should change in this case.

Firstly, the £1 spaces on the Demand track should disappear. I propose that this is precisely what happens - they disappear, along with any cubes on them. This could mean that they become less depleted than they were by up to 2 cubes, which could be irritating if you planned to construct a Coal Mine or Iron Works and ship cubes off to the Demand Track.

Secondly, the distribution of Distant Market tiles is supposed to change. I do not think this is workable, unless no tiles have been drawn yet. In this case the tiles that should be removed are removed and then the tiles are re-shuffled. If at least one Distant Market tile has already been drawn, then no change is made to the remaining undrawn Distant Market tiles. If it is the Canal Phase, then the correct distribution of Distant Market tiles will be used in the Rail Phase.

Additionally, the distribution of cards is supposed to change. I do not think this can be achieved. But location cards corresponding to locations no longer in the game can be removed from players' hands (including that of the departing player), from the draw deck, and also from the discard pile; cards removed from players' hands are then, of course, replenished from the top of the draw deck. It is possible that this will reduce the draw deck to less than the number of cards needed to complete the game. In this case, first of all the unused cards from the departing player's hand are shuffled and placed at the bottom of the draw deck (they are not shuffled in with the draw deck); if there are still not enough cards then the discard pile is shuffled and placed at the bottom of the draw deck (it is not shuffled in with the draw deck). It should be noted that this procedure could, in the Canal Phase, result in a player luckily shedding cards which would normally be present in his hand as junk (i.e. Birkenhead).

(I should note that the computer program will not model the idea of "removing cards from the deck at the start of the phase", as the rulebook instructs players to do. Rather, there is just a draw deck, from which no cards are removed, and the computer just stops dealing cards at the appropriate time - the result of this is that in a game where no player leaves, the appropriate number of cards are de facto not in the game.)

Lastly, the 2-player variant suggested by Henkka calls for various locations to be removed from the board, and for a Canal Link to exist between Lancaster and Scotland.

On the subject of the canal link to Scotland, this is not realistic in terms of the game's setting but is merely a game-balancing mechanism that works on the abstract level. For this reason, there will be an option when setting up a game to flatly forbid the existence (if a two-player game) or creation (if the number of players falls to 2) of the canal link to Scotland.

Otherwise, it needs to be considered if the number of players drops to 2 what (if any) locations are removed from the board. It seems obviously unfair to remove any location in which a player has already constructed an industry, and similarly since canal and rail links to a location are removed when that location is removed, it seems unfair to remove locations to which a player has constructed a canal or rail link. These considerations, of course, do not apply if the only industry tiles in a location and the only links to a location are the property of the departing player, or indeed a player who had departed earlier in the game.

It also seems slightly unfair to remove locations that are adjacent to locations in which or to which a player has already built, because they might have been planning to expand to that location. Similarly, adding the Canal Link to Scotland when a player has built in or to Lancaster might be too much of a windfall for that player.

I propose the following: The locations removed from the board in Henkka's 2-player variant are divided into 3 groups: the southwest (Birkenhead, Ellesmere Port and Northwich), the southeast (Stockport and Macclesfield) and the northeast (Oldham and Rochdale). When the number of players drops from 3 to 2, after the departing player's tiles are replaced by orphan tiles, each one of these three regions is removed from the game if and only if both of the following statements about it is true: 1. There are no non-orphan tiles either in it or in any location adjacent to it; 2. There are no non-orphan links either to it or to any location adjacent to it. The exception to this is Manchester. The southeast and northeast may disappear even though a non-orphan tile exists in Manchester and/or there is a constructed non-orphan link to Manchester. This is because there are many reasons why someone might build in Manchester.

The Midlands is removed from the game if and only if both the southwest and the southeast are removed. If it is the Canal Phase and the Canal Link to Scotland has not been forbidden in the game rules, then the Canal Link to Scotland appears if and only if both of the following statements are true: 1. There are no non-orphan tiles in Lancaster. 2. The canal link between Preston and Lancaster is either not constructed yet, or an orphan link.

If the game falls to two players during the Canal Phase, then additional locations may be removed from the game at the beginning of the Rail Phase. The same conditions as above apply, and they are of course applied after orphan tiles and Tech Level 1 industry tiles are removed. The cards included in the deck are the usual cards for a 3 or 4 player game with the exception that cards corresponding to locations not in the game are removed from the game. Henkka also suggests that the deck be balanced by reducing the number of certain other cards in the game (e.g. remove one Manchester card). This is done if and only if all three removable regions have in fact been removed.

What are your views on these ideas?
Kevin Cowtan
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First, great work.

Secondly, you seem to be devoting an awful lot of thought to the problem of someone leaving the game. Why not adopts the much simpler BSW approach and allow the players to recruit someone to replace the missing player.

Say, give the game a 'magic code', and, once someone has left, allow another player who to join the game if they have been given the code.
shawn a
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i agree with Kevin. I think you are over engineering the problem of a dropped player. I know if i was playing and someone dropped, i would want to wait for that player to reconnect or find a new player to fill the spot.

Great work though..keep it up!

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THIRDED!

Way too much effort -- just let a substitute player take the missing player's spot!

Can you do this as a play-by-web program? Or maybe both, like yucata.de?

Looking forward to playing more Brass!
Peter Mumford
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Excellent project! Have you tried the turn-based web implementations of boardgames at http://www.spielbyweb.com/, or http://www.mabiweb.com/? These work very well.

Occasionally a player does abandon a game, but it's not that big a problem. Of my 67 games of Amun-Re on spielbyweb, only 2 never finished.

In any case I can't wait to play Brass on your site.
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You've obviously put a lot of quality thought into what happens once a player is deemed to have left the game, but you haven't said (unless I just missed it) how you are going to work out when this has happened. You might be thinking of providing a "leave game" button, but in my experience of on-line games, the most likely scenarios are these:

star real-time games (e.g. those on BSW): a player either has a technical problem (computer crashes, internet connection fails, etc) or they simply stop playing the game (get distracted by crying baby, home invaders, etc.). You can handle this case by timing people out after a period of inactivity and/or detecting loss of TCP/IP connectivity, at which point those left in the game can invite others to fill the seat, as others have explained above.

star turn-based games (e.g. those on SpielByWeb and your game): a player never gets around to having their turn, e.g. has lost interest in the game, went on holidays, got too busy, etc. You can handle this case by expiring them after a given number of days (either hard-coded or agreed upon by the players when they set up the game), after which you can either try to fill the seat with a replacement player or scale the game down using the kinds of rules you've outlined above (e.g. rules about items left on the board by the departed player). Personally I'd keep it simple (at least to begin with) by terminating any game with an expired player; the other people in the game will soon learn not to invite the offending player to future games. Maybe you could inform such decisions by publishing each player's game completion rate. If it turns out that allowing a player to take another's place is a highly desired feature, you can add it later. Better to release early and often than to hold up the product while you make it all-singing and all-dancing.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do; I know I'm eagerly waiting for this to come out!
Philip Eve
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game_boy wrote:
You've obviously put a lot of quality thought into what happens once a player is deemed to have left the game, but you haven't said (unless I just missed it) how you are going to work out when this has happened. You might be thinking of providing a "leave game" button, but in my experience of on-line games, the most likely scenarios are these:

star turn-based games (e.g. those on SpielByWeb and your game): a player never gets around to having their turn, e.g. has lost interest in the game, went on holidays, got too busy, etc. You can handle this case by expiring them after a given number of days (either hard-coded or agreed upon by the players when they set up the game), after which you can either try to fill the seat with a replacement player or scale the game down using the kinds of rules you've outlined above (e.g. rules about items left on the board by the departed player). Personally I'd keep it simple (at least to begin with) by terminating any game with an expired player; the other people in the game will soon learn not to invite the offending player to future games. Maybe you could inform such decisions by publishing each player's game completion rate. If it turns out that allowing a player to take another's place is a highly desired feature, you can add it later. Better to release early and often than to hold up the product while you make it all-singing and all-dancing.


It would be the second variant, i.e. turn-based. In the same way as http://www.pr-game.com/ implements Puerto Rico, I would like the implementation to support games of varying "speeds". Plan is/was to have as part of each game played a published maximum turn time of sorts, for example "15 minutes" or "5 days". This allows groups to play a game over a matter of a week or two, or play a game in a timescale similar to the time it would take to play for real, in person. In both cases it's not necessary for players to remain connected and logged in at all times.

The plan has pretty much been that as part of setting up a game, players specify how much time a player has to make his moves before the option becomes available for the others to remove him from the game. So if this option was set to 2 days, then if it's been a person's turn for 2 days and he hasn't done anything, the other players can remove him if they all wish to do that. (This is two days per move - even per decision - not two days over the entire life of the game, as in a timed game of chess.) The plan was that you would also specify an amount of time after which the player is forcibly removed by the system, with the other players having no choice over the matter. (This would be a required setting - not able to be turned off - but it would be possible to give it quite a high maximum setting, like 60 days or something.)

A system allowing players to "take over" from departing players could be added. It might work something like this: after deciding to remove player X from the game (or after player X registers his intention of leaving), the remaining players then decide whether to scale down the game to one fewer player, or look for a replacement player. In practice it might be presumed that they want a replacement, and the game automatically added to a list of games seeking replacement players. Prospective replacement players can be subject to approval by at least one of the remaining players. Or if there is a unanimous vote amongst the remaining players to scale down, then this happens instead. If no solution is found in some time frame (this might be the second time setting discussed above, or it might be a third time setting, or a default time setting depending only on the time scaling of the game - i.e. minutes/hours/days) then the game automatically resumes, scaling down to one fewer player.

Things that this doesn't address are: what if more than one player is AWOL at a time, e.g. player X stops making his moves, the players decide he's removed from the game, and then while a replacement is being sought player Y gets fed up and decides to leave? (Assume it's a 4 player game, so that there are 2 players left).

There would probably be a global maximum amount of time that a game can remain on the system without a move being played. Say, 60 days. A game that goes for 60 days without a move being played and without undergoing a scaling down might be automatically aborted.
Last edited on 2008-10-13 21:55:11 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Philip Eve
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The above is something of a ramble, but that partly reflects that I'm not sure exactly what behaviour should be used, what features should be available and how they should work / how timing should work with them.
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OK, I think I have something sensible. It's slightly restrictive, but it is something that can be implemented without too much dificulty.

Each game being played has three relevant settings:

- A "last move time". This is the date and time of the last move played. In the event that no moves have been played yet, it's the date and time that the game was started ("started" here is distinct from being merely published in the list of games recruiting players). Also, in the event that the number of players was scaled down in the time since the last move was played, the last move time is the date and time that this happened rather than the date and time of the last move (or game start time).

- Time Limit A. This is either: an integer number of minutes between 5 and 120; an integer number of hours between 1 and 120; or an integer number of days between 1 and 60.

- Time Limit B. This can take the same range of values as Time Limit A, except that if it's in minutes then it has to be at least 20 minutes rather than at least 5.

Only the player whose turn it is can be removed from the game by the players, and only the player whose turn it is is allowed to quit the game. Although this is restrictive on players' ability to (formally) leave the game, it means that the players can only be (formally) looking for one replacement player at a time, which makes things simple.

Whenever the time since the "last move time" is longer than Time Limit A, the players may vote to remove the player whose turn it is from the game. This occurs if the vote is unanimous. The vote may be proposed arbitrarily many times, but of course it will never go through if somebody keeps disagreeing.

If a player is removed from the game, or he quits on his turn, then the game is added to a list of games seeking replacement players. Any player may request to be the replacement, and it only requires one of the remaining players to approve in order for this to happen. Only one player can request to be the replacement at any time; other players wishing to be the replacement must wait to see if he is rejected. (This means a player could spam the game with requests to be the replacement, continually asking to be the replacement even after being rejected.) If the players wait for a player to make his move, without voting to remove him, all the way to Time Limit B; or no replacement is found before Time Limit B is reached; or a replacement is found but he fails to make a move before Time Limit B is reached; or a player is removed or quits and the players vote unanimously to scale down the game, then the game is scaled down.

- Edit: A player can never rejoin a game he quit or was removed from, whether as the same colour or as a different colour.
Last edited on 2008-10-13 22:34:16 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Hammerite wrote:
- Edit: A player can never rejoin a game he quit or was removed from, whether as the same colour or as a different colour.


I think this is a lot of effort over a problem that should be very rare! Still, I suppose it is better to have some solutions worked out in advance! As far as this goes, I'd extend the ban further: if a player quits too many games (3?) they should be banned from joining/starting any game.

You should also consider adding a "Vacation" button -- to put a game on hold if one/more players will be away for an extended time, without the option of booting the vacationing players. If these games go on long enough, they'll inevitably run into players' time off.
Philip Eve
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A few weeks ago I told someone via GeekMail that I thought I might be ready to open this up for users in about the middle of November.

I now think that would be overambitious, I think it will hopefully be ready about the end of November.
Philip Eve
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Here is a nice page that you can visit to see something of what it will look like:

http://wargamessoc.union.shef.ac.uk/brass/board.php?GameID=3

NB. Although links to do so are open, I do not recommend attempting to join the website yet. It is not finished. It would be better to wait until I give the all clear.
Andrew Swan
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Quote:
Green (Finbarr Saunders) has not yet built an industry tile

Fnarr, fnarr, yik, yik! :)
William Shields
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Hammerite wrote:
Here is a nice page that you can visit to see something of what it will look like:

http://wargamessoc.union.shef.ac.uk/brass/board.php?GameID=3

NB. Although links to do so are open, I do not recommend attempting to join the website yet. It is not finished. It would be better to wait until I give the all clear.


Good stuff!

Just one point: instead of using so may images just use one image for the board and then use images for the played pieces. Its a real killer to have to hit 60+ images (even cached) on every page refresh. www.spielbyweb.com does this. In the Reef Encounter games, the map boards are an image file and CSS is used to put the polyps and shrimps on the board.

I highly recommend investigating this approach. It'll also allow you to style the board any way you want, rather than using a mosaic of straight and diagonal connecting black lines.

Oddly, you've gone a different way on the industry tiles where you have the industry tile with a number next to it. I really liked the way you did the original program with these where they are represented by stacks. I personally found it far more intuitive.

You can do this on the web too. Instead of putting:

Red cotton mill tech level 2 ... 2

create image files for stacks of 1, 2 and 3 (where appropriate) of each colour, industry tile and tech level combination and then reference them eg:

<img src="red_cotton_2x2.png"/>

for the Red TL2 cotton mills x2, etc.

You've mentioned www.pr-game.com on this. My advice? Use www.spielbyweb.com as your model. The UI is excellent. pr-game I tried and found to be (with all due respect to its cretors and the work they've put in) horrible.

The game history could be a separate link for example (like SBW).

Lastly, you probably want to embrace some sort of AJAX/Web2.0 type technologies so you can click something without reloading the whole page, like for choosing an action:

- Choose an action (highlight it but don't refresh);
- Choose a card (highlight it); and
- Choose a location or loan amount, as appropriate. Sell cotton is a little harder.

Excessive refreshing can be problematic for those on slower connections and it'll chew up bandwidth that much faster (most hosting packages have a limit on bandwidth so do what you can to conserve it so you can get by on a cheaper hosting plan if thats your intent).

The income/VP track could probably use a thin black border around each value as could the coal/iron/demand tracks.

Why not use the same turn order presentation as the desktop version? An amount in a coloured box rather than a separate value next to the box?

Ok, thats it I think. :)

But seriously, good work!
Last edited on 2008-11-21 07:51:38 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Philip Eve
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I'll have a think about those ideas. Some of them sound interesting but I would probably wait until after the site is ready to start playing games before I look at implementing them. The tile stacks thing actually would be preferable to the way it does things at the moment, I'll give a think to how to change the layout so that it doesn't mess up the income track to its left. Actually, I guess by splitting the table in two and having different cell sizes in the two tables it would be easy enough.

BTW the page I linked to above doesn't work at the moment, I deleted the games currently on there because I wanted to change some table details in the database. So there aren't any games to link to at the moment.

I don't think it will be ready for the end of November after all. Some time in December.
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Hammerite wrote:
I don't think it will be ready for the end of November after all. Some time in December.

No worries. Better to deliver the right product late than an inferior one on time.
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I have re-done the board page having learnt to use basic inline css.

You can see an example of what a game in progress will (currently) look like at this link: (sorry for juvenile title, I just filled in a text box without putting any thought into what I was writing)

http://wargamessoc.union.shef.ac.uk/brass/board.php?GameID=6

If you have comments about the current design then I might be persuaded to change things still, but otherwise I pretty much regard the design of the board page as a finished (for now) thing.

I have one large block of programming tasks still to do, then some testing (I have no idea how long it will take to test things), and then I will pretty much be ready to open it up. I'm hopeful for new year.
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Player "mats" look superb.

Rail/canal connections look a bit odd. Go for straight lines (like the desktop version) if you can.

I see you've tiled several images together to make the board. Why not do one image that has all the cities and connections on it?

Anchors on the map should prob be a bit smaller. Look a bit odd.

Cubes on the demand track look a little small.

Income/VP track looks great (except maybe tweak the colours to be more like the real version).

Rather than say "remaining link markers" I would actually say rail or canal, as appropriate.

How are you going to mark the current player and the current turn over?

The two boxes per player in the turn order/spent track can be combined into one (background colour matching player, number for amount spent).

In fact, to answer my earlier question: that's how you can show the current turn order. Current turn order is shown by order of squares on this track so it changes from turn to turn. Obviously you can't do this on a real board but you can do it on thsi version.

Looking good!
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hagin wrote:
Player "mats" look superb.


Thanks.

hagin wrote:
Rail/canal connections look a bit odd. Go for straight lines (like the desktop version) if you can.


I agree that some of them are slightly odd. The reason why they are shaped as they are is that a previous design involved a mosaic of 48 pixel by 48 pixel square images tiled together to make the board. I came to agree with the suggestion above that this was not the best way to do things, so the board image composition is now achieved using css, but the original layout of the links remains. I might alter it in the future.

hagin wrote:
I see you've tiled several images together to make the board. Why not do one image that has all the cities and connections on it?


As in the windows application, users will be able to specify that they prefer not to see canals during the rail phase, or vice versa. This is the reason for the separate canal, rail, and location images. The reason why there are several images in each of these categories is to allow for some parts of the board to be present, and others not. This is for two principal reasons: one, users will be able to choose not to see locations such as Birkenhead that are not accessible during the Canal Phase; two, in two-player games some parts of the board are missing. In games that started off with more than two players but have ended up with 2, some regions of the map are removed and some aren't. It's essentially the idea I arrived at earlier in this thread.

hagin wrote:
Cubes on the demand track look a little small.


I agree, it's probably because they're surrounded by a large amount of empty space. I may tweak it later on.

hagin wrote:
Rather than say "remaining link markers" I would actually say rail or canal, as appropriate.


I agree, I will change this in the next couple of days.

hagin wrote:
The two boxes per player in the turn order/spent track can be combined into one (background colour matching player, number for amount spent).


I can see why you would say so, but I quite like having the two boxes, one for a player circle and one for the amount.
Philip Eve
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The website is now open for beta testing. I have started a new thread which you can find here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/369040

The site itself is here:

http://wargamessoc.union.shef.ac.uk/brass/
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