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Tide of Iron » Forums » Reviews
Comparing the Incomparable: Tide of Iron and Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear!
Comparing the Incomparable:
Tide of Iron and Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear!


After reading a review by a Mr. Cheng at this address: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/351971, I thought I'd write my own review on how these games compare from the perspective of a moderately experienced wargamer.

My Qualifications (or Creditability) :)



My name's Chris, and I'm 32 years old. I've been wargaming since my junior high school days playing Onslaught! D-Day to the Rhine with my Uncle John, and fanning out into MechWarrior and other miniatures gaming in high school. Yes, I cut my teeth on Axis and Allies, and I loved the game until I realized it just didn't hit the sweet spot. My friend, who's also a BGGer and more of boardgamer (as opposed to a wargamer) also played throughout our high school and college years, including Hannibal: Rome v. Carthage. I have attended several different conventions in my eighteen years of gaming, including GenCon a couple times, Origins in 2007, and this year I will be attending my first BGG Con. I don't have the stomach for ASL, but have delved pretty seriously recently into Age of Sail miniatures and boardgaming.

As for the two particular games at issue, it should be said that I love them both, but for different reasons, and there are aspects that I don't like about either game, but for different reasons. I will discuss these shortly.

Tide of Iron. When it comes to Tide of Iron, I've played about five times solo and five times face-to-face. I've taught Tide of Iron to five other people, and two of my plays included some of the larger scenarios offered. I don't know the rules completely (they are rather finicky in some areas, and I would argue arbitrarily so), but I know them well. Well enough, at least, to know that I need to go to the rules booklet for certain things. One of our games was a marathon 10-hour session that was fun, rewarding, but also tedious toward the end. I feel completely comfortable discussing my likes and dislikes of this game.

Conflict of Heroes. I want to state once, and only once, that the full title of this game is: Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! Russia (1941-1942). Whew. It will now be referred to as Conflict of Heroes throughout. The reason for the long title is that this game is expected to expand into a series that explores the evolution of combat from World War II through (probably) the modern day. Conflict of Heroes is a more recent acquisition for me, and I have played it four times solo and three times face-to-face. I have taught the game to three people, and yes, there were plenty of bumps and roadblocks along the way, but it was all worth it. I feel completely comfortable comparing this game to ToI.

Those are my qualifications. I would ask the reader to be patient and forgiving if I erroneously state rules, or leave some exceptions to those rules out. The goal of this review is not to delve into the super-fine workings of each game, but to give a detailed explanation of what is truly different about these games to allow the reader to make a decision about which one to purchase.

Overview of the Games

I'm not trying to re-hash all the reviews that's been through the various threads, but I want to briefly discuss each game so that you, as a prospective buyer/player/wargamer of these games are aware of what each game entails before we explore the inner workings of the games how they are different. Describing wargames succinctly, though, is like trying to tell someone what chicken parmesan tastes like, so I try to draw as many comparisons as I can: "It's sort of like what you'd get if Lasagna and a Chicken Breast had a baby." It's not perfect, but it gives the person an idea. So let's make sure we're all on the same page.

Mr. Cheng, of course, listed all the components, and there are a number of reviews on each game if you are wondering what they are like as games. This section is just a summary to give you a Chicken Parm example.

First, what do the games have in common? Well, if you don't know already, both games are simulations of World War II tactical combat. In general, each player (in either game) acts as a platoon leader commanding a platoon of infantry plus any company attachments (like tanks, artillery, trucks, etc.). Company-level actions are available in either game, but doing so would probably be a very time-consuming affair. One "base" (ToI) or "counter" (CoH) of infantry represents 1 squad. One vehicle miniature (ToI) or vehicle counter (CoH), in either game, represents one vehicle. Both games have rules governing advanced wargaming concepts such as cover, suppressive fire, and many others.

Now, let's discuss each game in turn.

First, Tide of Iron.



I summarize this game when explaining it to people by saying "Memoir '44 on steroids." That is an oversimplification, but it serves the purpose.

Infantry squads are represented by small plastic bases on which are mounted a myriad number of tiny figures--officers, regular infantry, elites, machine guns, mortars, etc. Like so:



The players set these up how they like, with some restrictions. Squads may have specializations which confer additional abilities, and the squads with these specializations (such as engineers or anti-tank) are designated as such by mounting a counter onto the base (such as the ones in the picture above). Vehicles in ToI are represented by tiny plastic miniatures of tanks, trucks, and (in the single expansion so far) artillery. The vehicles and infantry make the game look really cool and you will get a flip in your stomach when a tank rolls the corner in front of any exposed infantry squad. Here's an example of unpainted and painted vehicles:



The miniatures come with the game unpainted and are serviceable as delivered. The plastic has been dyed the color of each side. The game also comes with 12 geomorphic mapboards, each of which has two sides and can be placed in (almost) any combination. The maps are overlaid with huge printed hexes allowing several vehicles or squads to occupy the same hex (probably 2-3 inches wide each). All the components are Fantasy Flight Games quality (the game's publisher), and while there was some grumbling about the compatibility of the figures and bases and some issues with the boards warping, the overall production is simply awesome. The rules are 42 pages long, but most of them are intuitive and easy to grasp. The game takes a while to set up, but it looks gorgeous when it's done:



The game plays in as little as an hour for very small scenarios to marathon games of 12+ hours if you have the stomach for it. I played a team game with my friend and his sons that lasted more than 10 hours, and it was fun, but tedious by the end. Tide of Iron has an Ameritrash feel, with gobs of six-sided dice being tossed and Axis and Allies-looking figures. But to that feel is added a layer of elevated concepts of modern combat, such as Opportunity Fire, indirect fire, and terrain cover, among others--essentially, all the WWII tactical concepts are included in the game in one form or another, including off-board artillery.

Gameplay involves a series of "rounds." Each round is divided into player "turns." This has confused many (if not most) first-time players of the game. A typical round consists of many "turns" where each player alternates moving a portion of his units on the map. A typical round would be as follows:

Player 1 has 10 units. On his turn he takes three actions by activating and then moving/firing three units. Player 2 has 8 units. On his turn he takes three actions by activating and then moving/firing three units. Player 1 then moves/fires three different units. And so on, until all units on the mapboard are fatigued or in opportunity fire mode. Then back to Player 2, etc. Once all units have been activated or are in opportunity fire mode, the game round is over, and you move on to the next round. Units, in general, may be activated and use one of several orders, including Move, Fire, Move AND Fire (with penalties to both), or Assault. There are more orders than this, including special actions with specialized units (like digging trenches or removing barbed wire), but most units will use one of the orders I listed.

Again, concepts such as cover, combined fire, opportunity fire, indirect fire, off-board artillery, and many other "advanced" wargaming concepts are used in the game.

The combat system is very Ameritrash. Units have no facing. There are no flanking maneuvers. Add up how many dice are attacking, and roll that against how many defense dice there are (generally awarded for cover, armor, and a bunch of other sources). The attacker chooses to either lay down suppressive fire or normal fire. The attacker rolls a number of six-sided attack dice and based on range to the target, hits are scored on either 6s (long range), 5s and 6s (normal range), or 4s, 5s, and 6s (close range). This is very similar to Warhammer.

Under normal fire, a figure is removed for each hit (if infantry), or a damage token is placed (for vehicles). Under suppressive fire, infantry squads may be pinned, disrupted, or disbanded, but no casualties are created, and vehicles may not be suppressed. Generally, suppressive fire is used in the game to end an attacking unit's turn and fatigue that unit, while normal fire is used to kill figures.

That's the basics.

Next, Conflict of Heroes . . .



Just as with Tide of Iron being "Memoir '44 on steriods," Conflict of Heroes is a stream-lined, lighter, and much more evolved Advanced Squad Leader. The mapboards have awesome artwork, and are mounted. They look like what I would want ASL mapboards to look like if they updated the game. The maps actually look like a top-down view of a battlefieldf with an overlaid hex-grid:



As you can see, these maps look very similar to ASL maps, or what I would call "modern ASL maps," if ASL had been updated.

The rules for this game are succinct. They are not complex on paper and the rules use programmed learning, so that you play with simpler concepts then advance to more complex concepts, play another scenario, then advance again, etc. The rules are 12 pages long. Once you are done learning the rules, you can start over with Scenario 1 that you played with only part of the rules, and use the full rule set for a whole new experience of the same Scenario. While simple to learn, the rules are complex in application--that is to say, game-play is deep, though the rules are simple.



The scenario cards are also similar to ASL, for those who have seen them. It lists the units to be used, reinforcements, special rules, and the game-turn track on the scenario card.

Conflict of Heroes uses counters with micro perforations. My counters were cut so well, they practically fell out of the sprues on their own. The corners of the counters (just as with ToI's markers, mind you) are pre-rounded, and they measure a full inch in size! Here's a picture comparing Carcassone tiles, a Conflict of Heroes counter, and an ASL counter:



Similar to ToI, the production quality for this game is extremely high. Though I hate to keep drawing comparisons between ASL and CoH, I think the comparison is fair as far as the look and feel of the game is concerned. It feels like ASL with a huge, awesome facelift. The counters have great artwork, the maps, like I said, also have great artwork.

The gameplay, however, is entirely different. And since I'm not an ASLer, let's talk a little about how CoH is played.

The typical game turn in Conflict of Heroes is interlaced. While not necessarily new (some other games have used a similar format, such as Crossfire), I call it "Non-Active Player Interrupt" because the non-active player can interrupt the active player's turn at literally almost any point.

In Conflict of Heroes, the active player may either pass, or activate a unit. If the player activates a unit, that unit is then assigned a specific number of action points (APs) with which it may do any number of actions, including Move, Fire, Move and Fire, build Hasty Defenses, set landmines (with appropriate cards), and a whole slew of other possible actions. The game includes the same advanced concepts as ASL and ToI: cover, indirect fire, opportunity fire, assaults, combined fire, etc. After a player does anything (and I mean ANYTHING) the non-active player may react to that action by spending a special type of action points called Command Activation Points, or CAPs.

So, when Player 1 moves an infantry squad 1 hex, Player 2 can say, "I want to react to that. My machine gun is firing on your squad, here." Now, the kicker is that Player 2's machine gun squad could fire on a different squad on a completely different part of the map. He could also choose to simply move a unit, or other types of actions. While I don't want to get bogged down in too much detail, the bottom line is that the Active Player is always subject to having his enemy react to his movement or firing.

To a large extent, Conflict of Heroes is a resource management game within a wargame, because it offers difficult decisions with regard to CAPs. If a player uses them all, his opponent (assuming he has units left or CAPs of his own) can simply overrun his enemy. If you're out of CAPs (for the most part), then you can't react. (There are some exceptions to this rule, including Action Cards.)

Because of this interlaced style of play, both players remain heavily involved in the game.

The combat system in CoH is very straight-forward. Each unit as an attack rating and each unit also has a defense rating. While it is more complicated for armored vehicles and the like, you essentially roll 2d6, add the attacking unit's Attack Rating, and if that number is higher than the defending unit's Defense Rating, a hit is scored. Thus, if you roll high enough, you hit. When you hit, a chit is randomly pulled from a pile and that chit modifies the attributes of the unit on the board. For instance, the damage chit Pinned prohibits the target unit from moving. The chit is placed under the affected unit. A unit hit twice is eliminated, and there is a separate pile of hit chits for infantry and vehicles. Units may be killed on one hit, either by drawing the Unit Killed chit or by rolling extremely well on the attack roll.

Again, the game during play looks simply awesome. Here's a game in play showing a wounded unit with a chit underneath it, and some units that are getting a little too close for comfort:



In a nutshell, that's Conflict of Heroes.

Obvious Dissimilarites

Big things between the two games that are very different, but not worth a whole section in this review are:

In Tide of Iron, there is no such thing as a truly hidden unit. All units on the map are known, their status is known, and the game is simply a matter of managing your units to attain victory with full knowledge of the composition of your enemy's forces, location, and condition. The same is even true of minefields--minefields are represented on the map with counters. Simply avoid those hexes, and you're good. There are no snipers (though there is a sniper card), and generally, the game is pretty straight-forward when it comes to strategy because you know where your enemy is.

Conflict of Heroes, on the other hand, has a vast fog of war system. Units may go to ground and hide, and they are removed from the map and their hex recorded. These hidden units may also move up to 1 hex a turn, and do not necessarily hide in the last hex your enemy saw them. Mines may be placed, and units may be ambushed. There is even optional rules allowing for hidden unit damage--so you don't even know how effective your own shooting was! The hidden unit factors can lead to units firing into a building that is "empty" simply because it is a good position for an enemy to be in. This can lead to bluffing and counter-bluffing as your opponent checks his sheet to "see" if his unit is in there, when no unit really exists.

Another difference are the turn/round ending events. In ToI, a round is not complete until all units on the board have been fatigued or placed in opportunity fire mode. Only then do you move to the next game round. In Conflict of Heroes, a game turn ends when both players pass one after the other. This can lead to interesting tactics in CoH. Your enemy, who simply needs to hold "X" objective for "X" number of turns, may keep passing and passing, forcing you, as the opposing player to activate units in order to keep the round moving. This, of course, leaves your opponent with the opportunity to attack with all his fresh units after you, as the attacker have moved. If you, as the attacker pass, your opponent can also pass, ending the turn. It creates an interesting interrelationship between tactical choices--it forces the player with a time constraint to keep up an attack; if he doesn't, he loses.

Summary and Conclusions

I find that these two games are entities unto themselves. Both games require radically different styles of play, look completely different, and play completely different. IMHO, at the end of the day, the only thing similar between these two games is the theme: World War II tactical combat. Aside from that, they are games unto themselves.

Tide of Iron is good for wargamers looking for a game that appeals to new wargamers because it looks awesome once it is set up, and you get to roll gobs of dice and play with plastic miniatures. The game is relatively light when it comes to simulating WWII combat in any realistic way, but that is more than made up for in the game play experience. ToI is bloody, and that is the point of the game. ToI probably has Conflict of Heroes beat when it comes to new wargamer appeal, but not when it comes to the game's usefulness as a simulation. Tide of Iron is also more limited in its selection of units, with only a few types of tanks and generic infantry types. I see Tide of Iron as "the next step up" from Axis and Allies and/or Memoir '44. In other words, don't expect historical accuracy in the finer details of this game. At its heart, it's Ameritrash, but oh so fun.

Conflict of Heroes also looks absolutely awesome, but appeals to the more traditional gamer with the counters. The design for this game is unique, sleek, and sure to be mimicked in the future. Conflict of Heroes has a wide variety of tank types and the squads in the game are meant to really reflect the strengths and weaknesses of the squads that they represent. You will not win CoH scenarios unless you use the tactics that your side used in the war. Conflict of Heroes is a much better simulation of World War II, but loses from the perspective of getting new players into the hobby. Additionally, unlike ToI, Conflict of Heroes isn't the game that Axis and Allies players are going to pick up. I would recommend Conflict of Heroes for the gamer who wants a quick, fast-playing game that is realistic as a simulation.

As for playability, CoH will be learned faster and will (in my opinion) yield more "historically accurate" results. But CoH does not compare to rolling 14 dice for your Tiger Tank against a base of infantry out in the open with no cover dice. It's just awesome. In that respect, both games are extremely playable. This is a tie.

As for RE-playability, both games also tie. Each game has various maps with different scenarios to play on each map. If you want a clear winner, here, then it's Tide of Iron by a smidgen: it has many different map configurations with the mapboards, plus tile overlays that let you modify those maps, plus on-line scenarios (both "official" and "user created"). The plethora of scenarios would give the lead to ToI, but as I said, both games are awesomely replayable.

As for rules, both games are moderately hard to learn, but CoH has simpler (and IMHO more realistic) rules. The rules systems will be a problem for the first couple games, but once you have a group of players who all know the rules, games will progress very briskly in either game. I have found that almost uniformly, new wargamers and new players like ToI more than CoH because of the look, feel, and play of the game. Using counters, even if they are completely beautiful, requires more imagination than seeing your miniature army and tanks roll across the huge-hex battlefields of ToI.

I lean more toward Conflict of Heroes because I see myself as a more mature wargamer, but I get both of these games to table as much as I can these days. Once you have a group of guys that knows the rules, ToI is a beer and pretzels game while CoH is fast, fun, but more serious.

Cheers. And happy gaming.

For more information:

Tide of Iron: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/tideofiron.html

Conflict of Heroes: http://www.conflictofheroes.com/

Edit: Corrected an inconsistency.
Edit: Corrected typos and added pic of Conflict of Heroes during play.
Last edited on 2008-11-03 09:31:15 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Chris
Excellent review.
Mike King
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Good job.
John Di Ponio
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Good job of analyzing the games and kind of comparing similar historical periods but vastly different games!
Andy Daglish
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cmontgo2 wrote:
essentially, all the WWII tactical concepts are included in the game in one form or another, including off-board artillery.


I assume its the good one, and it would appear the least popular.

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This is very similar to Warhammer.


who could resist that?

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Next, Conflict of Heroes . . .

and much more evolved Advanced Squad Leader.


yes... the trouble is believing it.

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The mapboards have awesome artwork, and are mounted. They look like what I would want ASL mapboards to look like if they updated the game.


they look like ASL mapboards, possibly done by a children's book illustrator.

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then advance to more complex concepts


this implies there are some.

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the rules are complex in application--that is to say, game-play is deep, though the rules are simple.


We are unlikely ever to read an explanation of the depths. The problem is trying to portray a very complex matter in the simplest way possible, and the result is numerous failures everywhere. It has taken a while for the penny to drop, but it seems now it is on its way down.

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It feels like ASL with a huge, awesome facelift.


performed by a dentist

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While I don't want to get bogged down in too much detail, the bottom line is that the Active Player is always subject to having his enemy react to his movement or firing.


the bottom line is to expend 2AP to improve your dice roll when firing on the enemy. That is by far the most important game action, with added significance when you run out of APs to do this.

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Thus, if you roll high enough, you hit.


there it is.

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When you hit, a chit is randomly pulled from a pile and that chit modifies the attributes of the unit on the board. For instance, the damage chit Pinned prohibits the target unit from moving. The chit is placed under the affected unit. A unit hit twice is eliminated, and there is a separate pile of hit chits for infantry and vehicles. Units may be killed on one hit, either by drawing the Unit Killed chit or by rolling extremely well on the attack roll.


this works well at first and then one becomes familiar with the infantry chits. So at first you feel its good and interesting and then you stop. The importance of the chit is to kill the unit next time [therefore chits attract fire], whereas its restrictions are not always significant, except sometimes in helping the enemy to get the second hit.

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Conflict of Heroes, on the other hand, has a vast fog of war system. Units may go to ground and hide, and they are removed from the map and their hex recorded. These hidden units may also move up to 1 hex a turn, and do not necessarily hide in the last hex your enemy saw them. Mines may be placed, and units may be ambushed. There is even optional rules allowing for hidden unit damage--so you don't even know how effective your own shooting was! The hidden unit factors can lead to units firing into a building that is "empty" simply because it is a good position for an enemy to be in. This can lead to bluffing and counter-bluffing as your opponent checks his sheet to "see" if his unit is in there, when no unit really exists.


It don't work. Some experience of game design tells us what happens when "Mr Invisible Goes To Town". Lesson #3 in Gunfighting: if you're blind and deaf, don't attend.

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If you, as the attacker pass, your opponent can also pass, ending the turn. It creates an interesting interrelationship between tactical choices--it forces the player with a time constraint to keep up an attack; if he doesn't, he loses.


have you correctly identified the crapness of the system? Similar situations have been binned long ago, where a passive defender permanently retains advantages whilst an active attacker continuously loses them. This doesn't work either.

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The design for this game is unique, sleek, and sure to be mimicked in the future. Conflict of Heroes has a wide variety of tank types and the squads in the game are meant to really reflect the strengths and weaknesses of the squads that they represent. You will not win CoH scenarios unless you use the tactics that your side used in the war. Conflict of Heroes is a much better simulation of World War II, but loses from the perspective of getting new players into the hobby. Additionally, unlike ToI, Conflict of Heroes isn't the game that Axis and Allies players are going to pick up. I would recommend Conflict of Heroes for the gamer who wants a quick, fast-playing game that is realistic as a simulation.


this is one of those paragraphs one could nail line-by-line. It really is quite odd, but not according to the thumbs.

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As for playability, CoH will be learned faster and will (in my opinion) yield more "historically accurate" results.


such as? the numbers on the counters are out of whack and the present situation appears to be that everyone capable knows [and I mean everyone]. Good wargames are supposed to educate, but first they shouldn't go in the opposite direction.
Chris Montgomery
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0809
Andy, it sounds like you don't like either game very much. Why not do a review yourself, instead of cut mine down?

You raise some interesting points, but you don't elaborate. By your measure, maybe we ought to grab M1 Garands and run out into the winter snow in order to get to a good, historical opinion of WWII on the Eastern Front.

I think many of your points are valid, and most BGGers LOVE negative reviews because they are rare (most people don't want to waste time writing a review of a game they don't like).

So, if you don't like the games, please set down a review of your own, but don't criticize my review simply because you don't like the game.

Cheers.

Chris

Edit: Corrected typo, softened the tone.
Last edited on 2008-11-04 08:43:33 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
David Gardner
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0507
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such as?


Such as some people may just be angry at the world. Snip-snip-snip.

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the numbers


The numbers of times people pick apart a given post, quoting a phrase or a line, primarily for the purpose of tearing it apart, generally shows real weakness in the points being made.

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are out of whack


Right, because the person isn't making any cogent statement themselves. They're just close-reading someone else's, and any emerging coherence generally exhibits ad hominem tendencies, rather than a meaningful statement about the topic of the posting. And that's out of whack.

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and the present situation appears to be


Kind of sad, really. That's all.

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that everyone capable knows [and I mean everyone].


I didn't really have much to say about this phrase in the post, but I thought I would insert something here anyway. It might make me look... smart?

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Good wargames are supposed to educate, but first they shouldn't go in the opposite direction.


I'm not even really saying I'm smart. But I do try uphold courtesy.
James Hebert
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Excellent, excellent review, touching on a variety of points with depth. It's pretty apparent that you appreciate both games for different reasons, and you spell them out well. I really enjoyed the read, and came away satisfied that I now knew quite a bit more about both games. Thank you.

Don't let Andy's comments dissuade you. Hard to tell whether this is an attempt at heavy sarcasm or just showing contempt, but to what end? Perhaps he should take up a hobby. :meeple:

James
Last edited on 2008-11-05 00:02:47 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Swashbucklin' Josh [Here to have fun!]
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070809
Excellent and very helpful review!

So if I understand correctly, Conflict of Heroes is somewhat easier to learn and, generally speaking, plays faster than Tide of Iron? If this is the case, it could be the final nail in Tide of Iron's coffin for me (despite all its wonderful, drool-inducing plastic toys!).
Andy Daglish
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David Gardner wrote:
because the person isn't making any cogent statement themselves.


I'm pleased you think so, but unfortunately its not true.
Chris Montgomery
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squash wrote:
Excellent and very helpful review!

So if I understand correctly, Conflict of Heroes is somewhat easier to learn and, generally speaking, plays faster than Tide of Iron? If this is the case, it could be the final nail in Tide of Iron's coffin for me (despite all its wonderful, drool-inducing plastic toys!).


Once the rules are learned for either game, they will play at about the same speed, but "game speed" is always dependent on your players--if you have a type of player in your group (and I am one, sometimes) called a Worrywart, games can last 2-3 times longer as the Worrywart makes a move, takes it back, thinks for another fifteen minutes, etc.

However, Tide of Iron is very obviously a time-consuming game to set up. If possible, you should set up the scenario you are going to play prior to the start of your game day. As an example, I have all my boards, overlays, counters and figures organized for ease of use, and on a moderately large gameboard (nine geomorphic mapboards) with tile overlays, the set up alone took about forty-five minutes. And that's not including the time it takes for each side to set up their infantry units (you are allowed to mix and match the figures of each division to compose your infantry squads however you want, with some restrictions.

Instead, I would go on your own personal tastes--Tide of Iron is extremely accessible, and while the rules booklet is very long, the rules themselves are not overly obtuse. Instead, the booklet is chock-full of examples and text boxes and pictures. So I cannot say that Conflict of Heroes is easier to learn. So, if your personal tastes run in the direction of a "lighter" wargaming experience, I'd get Tide of Iron. It's also been received much better by my "lighter side" gaming group. Conflict of Heroes on the other hand is for those people who want to "play at ASL" without having to learn 200 pages of rules. Conflict of Heroes will probably play faster than Tide of Iron when you have a group of people who know the rules, but that does not mean that Tide of Iron is more or less fun.

I must say that I simply love both games, and they are both worth owning, if you can afford it. But the games are completely different. At the end of the day, the only common ground they really have is their theme.

For new wargamers (who have been exposed to maybe Axis and Allies and/or Memoir '44/BattleLore, but not much else) I would probably recommend Tide of Iron. For gamers wanting the next step away from light wargaming and into the periphery of war simulations, I would recommend Conflict of Heroes. I hope this helps.
Michael Petrovic
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Excellent comparison and much appreciated as I was wondering how the two games compared.

Now how about comparing the game-play of Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! - Russia 1941-1942 and Lock 'N Load: Band of Heroes? :D

Thx,

j0
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squash wrote:
Excellent and very helpful review!

So if I understand correctly, Conflict of Heroes is somewhat easier to learn and, generally speaking, plays faster than Tide of Iron? If this is the case, it could be the final nail in Tide of Iron's coffin for me (despite all its wonderful, drool-inducing plastic toys!).


During a recent gaming session we played a 4 player game of CoH, 3 of us were wargamers, out of those 3 two of us had never seen an actual copy of CoH. The forth had never played a traditional hex wargame before and everyone managed to play reasonably well and get a lot of enjoyment out of the game. I think ToI has too many "exception" rules Overall my vote would go with CoH. It is easier, more realistic and for a wargamer leads to a more satisfying game.

Mike
Green is not a colour It is a Pigment of your imagination
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j01969 wrote:
Excellent comparison and much appreciated as I was wondering how the two games compared.

Now how about comparing the game-play of Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! - Russia 1941-1942 and Lock 'N Load: Band of Heroes? :D

Thx,

j0


I think more wargames of a similar type should be compared to each other more often. It is difficult to describe a game without using too many subjective words. By having one game it would be easier to understand another game, if both were compared by someone who owned both games.
Andy Daglish
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cmontgo2 wrote:
Andy, it sounds like you don't like either game very much. Why not do a review yourself, instead of cut mine down?


as far as i can gather, there's nothing actually wrong with Tide of Iron except a deficit in M44/CC: E/CoH buzz. Maybe there's a connection.

A review is tricky presently, as CoH is not very reviewable in current form. Its more Zimbabwe than CC: E's apartheid S. Africa [no tanks] or M44's post-apartheid SA [silly scenarios]. A review of mine is not the same thing as the moral dilemma presented by a genuine need to respond to another, versus a disinclination to do so. It would be better for me to do a game.

Quote:
You raise some interesting points, but you don't elaborate.


For example, as I put on this page this morning, factoring in everything increases margin of error to the point that two numbers that should be very different begin approach each other in value. So, as a basic design rule, you don't factor in everything. And the game proves it. But a lot of people have bought it, and not least because of reviews like yours.

Quote:
By your measure, maybe we ought to grab M1 Garands and run out into the winter snow in order to get to a good, historical opinion of WWII on the Eastern Front.


Yes, very much so, but of course one must guard against gaining false impressions.

Quote:
I think many of your points are valid, and most BGGers LOVE negative reviews because they are rare (most people don't want to waste time writing a review of a game they don't like).

So, if you don't like the games, please set down a review of your own, but don't criticize my review simply because you don't like the game.


No. The review and the game fail each in their own way. Your review represents extremity, hence I responded. A response and a review are not the same thing. I daresay what you put is more literary affectation than solid word-by-word belief, say a mixture of both of the usual variety.

but it concerns me that all this could come to pass in 2008. Elsewhere things are moving on. In the wargame world I see cottage industries with a craftsmanship problem, whilst at Essen there's Agricola, Dominion and many similar others...take a look at the Hot Games list to your left. Two or three wargames and they're all crap! There is even 1960, a non-wargame derived from a wargame system!
Last edited on 2008-11-05 19:51:13 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Chris Montgomery
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Avatar
0809
aforandy wrote:
cmontgo2 wrote:
Andy, it sounds like you don't like either game very much. Why not do a review yourself, instead of cut mine down?


as far as i can gather, there's nothing actually wrong with Tide of Iron except a deficit in M44/CC: E/CoH buzz. Maybe there's a connection.

A review is tricky presently, as CoH is not very reviewable in current form. Its more Zimbabwe than CC: E's apartheid S. Africa [no tanks] or M44's post-apartheid SA [silly scenarios]. A review of mine is not the same thing as the moral dilemma presented by a genuine need to respond to another, versus a disinclination to do so. It would be better for me to do a game.

Quote:
You raise some interesting points, but you don't elaborate.


For example, as I put on this page this morning, factoring in everything increases margin of error to the point that two numbers that should be very different begin approach each other in value. So, as a basic design rule, you don't factor in everything. And the game proves it. But a lot of people have bought it, and not least because of reviews like yours.

Quote:
By your measure, maybe we ought to grab M1 Garands and run out into the winter snow in order to get to a good, historical opinion of WWII on the Eastern Front.


Yes, very much so, but of course one must guard against gaining false impressions.

Quote:
I think many of your points are valid, and most BGGers LOVE negative reviews because they are rare (most people don't want to waste time writing a review of a game they don't like).

So, if you don't like the games, please set down a review of your own, but don't criticize my review simply because you don't like the game.


No. The review and the game fail each in their own way. Your review represents extremity, hence I responded. A response and a review are not the same thing. I daresay what you put is more literary affectation than solid word-by-word belief, say a mixture of both of the usual variety.

but it concerns me that all this could come to pass in 2008. Elsewhere things are moving on. In the wargame world I see cottage industries with a craftsmanship problem, whilst at Essen there's Agricola, Dominion and many similar others...take a look at the Hot Games list to your left. Two or three wargames and they're all crap! There is even 1960, a non-wargame derived from a wargame system!


I must say that I have no idea what you are talking about. And I am not trying to be facetious, I really do not know what you are trying to say.

Cheers.

Chris Montgomery
Chris Montgomery
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Avatar
0809
aforandy wrote:


No. The review and the game fail each in their own way. Your review represents extremity, hence I responded. A response and a review are not the same thing. I daresay what you put is more literary affectation than solid word-by-word belief, say a mixture of both of the usual variety.


My review represents extremity? Your responses make no sense. Please just write a review of your own, attacking my review, if necessary, but your inane posts are useless and annoying. You make no sense. Your verbiage attempts to rise to the level of a sober, superior, expert, but you can't (or don't) even articulate your own position.

Start your own damn thread and leave this one alone, please.

Chris
Anthony Simons
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Game Designer
Avatar
040506
aforandy wrote:

No. The review and the game fail each in their own way.


And it would seem, Andy, you failed to make your response clear. Though you state your response is just that - a response, you appear to have cunningly secreted a mini-review between the lines (which is where I had to read to work out what you were saying).

Personally, I moved away from ASL because of it's professed perfection as a simulation and will always prefer a system which abstracts away from the calculable.

Sacrifices will always have to be made; so mortar behaviour (for instance) is controversial in ToI and the non-linear flow of CC:E is too.

Having not played the CoH system yet I can't give an informed opinion, but if it manages to blur the fine lines of ASL that's fine by me. That this would be an evolution of ASL is neither here nor there as long as it's an imporvement.

By the way, Chris; great review.
James Hebert
flag
Yah... it's contempt.

translation: "If I can baffle you enough with incomplete thoughts, vague references, terminology bastardized from the segregationist issues of other countries, then clearly you are the lesser being for being unable to communicate on my level."

Didn't even need to format every other phrase with color, extraneous quote marks, unnecessary italics, and other forms of visual clutter to obfuscate the message... it came through loud and clear.

You sir, are a Master.

Last edited on 2008-11-06 16:49:42 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Blair
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Avatar
Good job Chris. Thank you for taking the time to contribute. You've obviously put a great amount of time & effort writing it up and I enjoyed reading your review.
dan schnake
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Props for the review as well. I knew ToI was a "standard" lite wargame. Nothing wrong with that, but we've got AT-43, and it scratches that itch rather well. Not saying At-43 = ToI....

I've been curious about CoH because of the buzz and you gave some good insights on why.
dan schnake
flag
aforandy wrote:
No. The review and the game fail each in their own way. Your review represents extremity, hence I responded. A response and a review are not the same thing. I daresay what you put is more literary affectation than solid word-by-word belief, say a mixture of both of the usual variety.

but it concerns me that all this could come to pass in 2008. Elsewhere things are moving on. In the wargame world I see cottage industries with a craftsmanship problem, whilst at Essen there's Agricola, Dominion and many similar others...take a look at the Hot Games list to your left. Two or three wargames and they're all crap! There is even 1960, a non-wargame derived from a wargame system!


Andy, he wasn't extreme. It's cool if you don't like the games, but you're kidding yourself if you think his post deserved the derision.

Oh, and the bit "I daresay what you put is more literary affectation" shattered my Mark VII irony meter.



Spaz Devaux
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good review!
i think everything you said is right
but as a gamer who search for advance game also , i play TOI with new house rules. It is very easy to step up to advanced play with the setting of TOI. For exemple, other players were always bugging me.. for some rules that are.. strange, so i incorporated some house rules. I will do a new thread about that.
thx
Brad Goddard
flag
Holy cow! Andy Daglish, that had to be the single most narcisistic, "I am smarter than thou", trollish post I have ever seen on BGG. You are trashing a very good, informative, and downright helpful review and giving practically no sane reasoning for it. Then when asked to do better you say its impossible and compare all the games to african racist environments?!? wtf! That is almost stunning in its absurdity.

Anyway, thanks for the review(s). Neither game seems to hit the perfect spot for me so I think I will just stick with Flames of War as my WW2 game of choice.
LEGION wrote:
You are trashing a very good, informative, and downright helpful review and giving practically no sane reasoning for it.


I think Andy sounds like an ASL'er who sees in CoH the writing on the wall for ASL...

:what:

I own CoH & TOI both, great review.
Last edited on 2008-12-11 03:34:28 CST (Total Number of Edits: 4)
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