Here's a really good "strategy":
Buy Alien Toy Factory for two cards less than Galactic Trendsetters, yet get a windfall good too. Then call Produce and Consume 2x a lot. The world seems massively underpriced. After 1-2 games, (5) seems more reasonable to me. Can this world really be the same value as other (3) windfalls? Compare it to Blaster Gem Mines or Galactic Resort... those represent decidedly smaller pieces of the puzzle for the strategies they advance. Alien Toy Factory is the big half of a really powerful Produce/2x economy, and it doesn't stink for trade, either!

I totally agree. I'd like to see why onigame thinks this card is not overpowered.

This is something I've wondered about. Sadly, I haven't got to crack out the expansion against real people yet - I've only played solitaire - but it seems that settling windfalls and feeding them to consume powers is a bit more viable, for a few reasons. It seems from your previous posts that your group finds production strategies the most powerful. Alien Toy Shop is designed for a produce strategy, so maybe that's why you find it very cheap.

As and aside, this applies to Galactic Trendsetters too: in a pure produce/consume strategy, Tourist World provides a better consume power for a cheaper cost. Why? Because Galactic Trendsetters is more useful for drafting consume.

GT is nice in cases where you're one good short, vs Tourist World. That can be nice in cases where you'll be able to do a Produce Consumex2 Consumex2 instead of V, IVx2, V, IVx2. Each less produce is one less for you opponents. Also, GT is worth 3 extra pts with Galactic Rennaissance

The reason I think it's not under priced is because it's a windfall and because the consume power only applies to it. That significantly restricts the utility of the card. If it were more flexible it would be a lot more powerful. It is a really nice card, but it seems priced correctly to me.

I've only played the expansion four times so far (the base game 270 times), so far though anyone who's tried to concentrate on a produce/consume strategy has lost out to someone who either built their tableau out more or got more goal cards along the way (or both).

It would take you six turns to run out the VPs in a two player game, assuming all you've got going on is Alien Toy Factory. Any competent player should slaughter you with that much free time, especially when you are being so predictable.

It's better if you get it early with ELC; that cuts it down to 4 more turns, but it's still not a sure thing.

Does it slot well into an existing P/C engine? Yeah, usually. But then it's using your windfall production slot, and you had to pay to get it out, and, and, and.

It's also less and less overpowering the more players you have, much like P/C in general

I've played maybe 25-35 games with it in the deck; it's hit the table maybe 5 or 6 times, and been used as part of a P/C engine maybe half those times. Often it's played for it's other characteristics (windfall, Alien, points, etc.).

Trust the development process for this game...

?!

What?! Game designers and developers can't make mistakes? What bizarro world is that?

I'm not saying I agree with all "overpowered" "underpriced" "broken" comments when they initially show up, but that doesn't mean none of them have ever been accurate.

I didn't say anything about designers and developers in general, did I?

I spoke of this game in particular.

And so far, no, they haven't made any mistakes, and my experience with this card (and all the other ones people have claimed are broken, overpowered, or undercosted) has borne that out.

This game has had an *insane* amount of playtesting and development, and it shows.

As I said, trust the development process for this game... ;)

So we don't have the credentials to question the game design? Uh, sorry, we're allowed to do that. It's not rocket science.

Let's compare ATF to the alien-4 windfall.

ATF costs one less.
Alien-4 windfall comes with 2 more VP in tow.
ATF has the second-best consume power in the game.
Alien-4 windfall has no consume power whatsoever.

If two players play, and both select Prod strategies, who is going to win, the player that gets the Alien-4 windfall early or the player that gets Alien Toy Factory early? Barring more information I'd currently give 3:2 odds favoring the Alien Toy Factory player.

It's also no comparison to the other 3-windfalls. Please tell me how the heck Galactic Bazaar is even rougly equal? Galactic Resort? Blaster Gem Mines?

I suppose an insane person could argue that the consume power is a disadvantage, since it's eating the trade good right off the card. However, that's nuts, the chances of that happening are small in comparison to the chances of it being helpful it in Prod strategy.

Today I think it hit the table in 3 of 5 games, and won the game in each case it was played.

In the last game it was such the MVP that it's hard to imagine even a 6 scoring more: it minted me 5 cards and 17 vp. Alongside it, my 2nd most effective system was New Earth, which netted only 4 cards and 11vp, yet costs 50% more. Going into Prod-2x loop with just those two worlds, Expeditious Force, and 10 cards in hand won me the game by a huge margin. Yes, there were opportunity costs that are impossible to calculate, however, I feel strongly that it was the point-maximizing way to go, and even with another prod player drafting me the whole way, this single card was so good that I successfully broke away and left him in the dust, and no other card in the deck is muscular enough to allow that. Not Lost Species Ark World. Not Alien Robot Factory. Not Trendsetters. Nothing was its equal in that stage of the game.

So taking your two posts into account you have 4-5 games played with ATF in play. You're already convinced that a card is broken after a statistically meaningless number of plays? Is the player with ATF winning in a blowout or close games? None of this could be accounted for by a degenerate card draw or poor play from the opposing players?

You're welcome to question the process or the designer. I can take it. ;-)

The thing about Alien Toy Factory is that to exploit it, you either need a card combo (with a windfall producer) or you need to start calling Produce -- and that means your actions just got very, very predictable...

Take advantage of this.

Sure, you can do it. You'd just be wrong, in this case. ;)



All I can say is play with it more, and/or with better players. It looks like you're in a groupthink situation that is exploitable. :)

Of course, there is always the chance that your experience/opinion is the "correct" one, and that everyone who doesn't share it, and the extensive playtesting, is wrong, but I'd bet against that. ;)

There are lots of cards that are killer, if you can use them properly, in the proper circumstances. This is certainly one of them. But those circumstances are not actually all that common.

Wow, so in a two player game, my opponent who has the ATF is going to go Consumex2 and Produce every turn for the rest of the game? GREAT! He is likely to be card poor and I will be able to out settle or out produce him the rest of the way.

Don't get me wrong, ATF is a nice world, but to really benefit from it, all you are doing with it is consuming the good there. If you are trading the good, you are better off with one of the other alien windfall worlds.

To fully exploit it, you are giving the initiative for other actions to your opponent who can now dictate the pace of play, beat you to other goals and objectives, as well as getting points on things other than consume.

I think most things that can be said have already been said. Here's what I can add:

When comparing against Galactic Trendsetters, don't forget that GR provides two extra VPs. Which card would you rather have in your hand if it were the last turn in the game (and you could afford either)?



The consume power can be a mixed blessing, because it means your valuable Alien good can disappear when you would rather sell it for cash.

It is true at ATF is one of the cards we paid a lot of attention to during playtesting. Certainly when ELC gets it in a 2-player advanced game, the opponent can feel pretty sad...

In your play testing, was your first move/card selection forced, or did it at least need to be reasonably general, something that would work against the myriad of strategies that ELC/AC can play without you knowing their hand? If you know your opponent's starting hand, that greatly underestimates the actual difficulty of beating the powerful hand as if it came in the wild.

General, until TW or ATS is played.

Huh.... I just realize we've been calling it "Alien Toy Factory" all along when it should've been referred to as "Alien Toy Shop".

I still think the LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS wasn't play-tested sufficiently.
The consume power is what puts it over the top.

I guess wining without a proposed solution is unproductive so......

The consume power should have a can't be double VPed symbol at least.

I don't understand this defense. You might be able to argue that it is a little weaker on the last turn, but in two player, you should always be able to call settle/consume x2 if you want. In this case (and most others) GT gets two more points immediately, but settling ATS and then consuming x2 actually nets you two MORE points than GT. Having some else call consume nets the same points as GT but for 2 less cost. So having ATS in your hand for the last turn is a guaranteed 5 points that I would only pass up if I could play some other card that could net more than 5 points on the last turn.



I don't understand this argument either. It basically comes down to awesome card draw or awesome point gain. Two equally great options for cheap doesn't seem like much of a drawback.

On paper, the ATS seems significantly better that all comparable cards (4 alien windfall/5 alien windfall/ALL other windfall worlds/Galactic trendsetters/ALL other consumption worlds).

Here's a simple hypothetical scenario. I'm playing a three-player game as Separatist Colony against Old Earth and Alpha Centauri. My initial hand is:

* Alien Toy Shop
* 4-cost Alien Windfall
* Galactic Trendsetters
* Tourist World

Old Earth chooses Explore, I choose Settle, Alpha Centauri chooses Consume: Trade.

My strategy? I put out the 4-cost Alien Windfall, planning to sell the good next turn.

Fair enough. I understand. I admit that I never really consider situations with more than two players. So are you suggesting that the consume ability on ATS is actually a drawback and that is why it costs 1 less than the 4-cost alien windfall with no ability? Can you think of a situation in 2-player advanced in which the ATS is at a disadvantage to the 4 cost alien windfall?

BTW, I'm not howling broken here I'm just trying to understand the development process which led to ATS being so much cheaper than anything else out there. I mean, the closest comp I can think of is Galactic Resort that costs 3 for a blue windfall and has a 1 card/1 point consume. ATS seems much better in both good and consume power for the same price and has the advantage of also being an alien card.

Ok, maybe Alien Toy factory isnt broken in 3+ player, but I feel it is DEFINITELY broken in 2 player, where you can control the consuption of the good easily (trade at first, then VP).


Tom claims their results were that they could beat Alien Toy Shop 40% of the time. Even if this is true, that means that simply having this card in my hand increased my win %age from 50 to 60%. Thats huge!


Mostly I simply object to Alien Toy Shop because its cost is SO MUCH lower than comparable cards, which are themself playable and 'good'.



Overall, I am extremely impressed by the balance in Race for the Galaxy. I would say that the card balance is far better than in say, Magic the Gathering. And this is not an easy feat. (And additionally, you dont actually want all cards to be equal in power. You just dont want any that are too far out one way or the other).

That's not quite what Tom said...and in any case, your statement assumes that you have ATS and ELC in your opening hand.

As previously pointed out, that only happens a tiny fraction of the time, something on the order of less than one time in 200. That's not broken, by any reasonable standard.

It's a card game; killer hands happen (the overwhelming majority of which do not even involve ATS). Deal with it. :)

One immediately popped into mind, but it has to do with a card in the third expansion that we're currently playtesting.

With just the cards you know about, a good example is the last turn of the game, there's no consume, and you have to choose which to settle. Clearly the 3-point world is better than the 1-point world.

Generally the cards with powers and lower VP are better at the beginning of the game, when you can leverage the powers into VP throughout the game, and the cards with no powers and high VP are better at the end of the game.



Okay, comparing with Galactic Resort is instructive. GR gives you one more point, gives you a card when it consumes, and being a Novelty good synergizes with more strategies (it's easier to find Consumer Markets or Free Trade Association than it is to find Alien Tech Institute). If you're dropping the card on the last turn, GR will get you 1 more point if there is no Consume, one extra card if there is Consume, and 1 less point (and 1 more card) if you chose Consume 2x.

Near the end of the game, I'm happier to see GR. Near the beginning of the game, I'm happier to see ATS. In the mid-game, which I prefer depends on if I have a way to get cardflow and what the other players are doing. If another player is doing a Prod/Consume cycle, GR will leech me a card and a VP, and if I build a cheap Novelty production world (e.g., Artist Colony), will leech me a card and a VP every cycle. Whereas ATS will get me 2 VPs once and that's it. I'd have to use up an action if I wanted to get cards from ATS, or if I wanted to have the good be produced again. Any cheap production world will synergize with GR, whereas there are only two cards that synergize well with ATS (Galactic Engineers and Alien Rosetta Stone World).