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Joel Schuster
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Hi there,

I've been considering with Bighab the idea of adding a 4th Westeros deck to the game, like in the AFFC 9player fan expansion, but with different cards than these.

The 4th deck will be played as a real 4th so just after the usual 3 events. First 4th deck card will be played in Turn 3 ! Not Turn 2 as usual, avoiding early built-up interference with these special events and conditions.

But I still want to design 10 cards of which only a maximum of 8 cards may hit the table during a single game, depending on how long it goes.
So it should be 5 cards with rather a gaining effect for players and 5 cards with rather a losing effect, to make sure its not badly off spot for each individual game. It'd also would be possible to make a certain amount of cards with both a gain and a loss on itself, like having 4 good ones, 4 bad ones and 2 with effects that even out on the card itself. Or any other similar constellation like 3/3/4.

Cards should always affect all houses alike, so it should be general effects, not ones that may have different outcomes due to individual starting conditions/locations, like geographical differences.

If possible it should rather benefit players that are put down at the moment, struggling to keep up with the course of the game, instead of giving additional benefits to the already well-doing houses that lead the board.

Also, cards should always have some sort of effect (thats why they often have two effects at a time, an immediate one and an ongoing one through the next turn), so that certain cards are not turned completely ineffective by other existing cards in combination (like Feast for Crows or Storm of Swords or noone having any power left as there just was a Clash and/or Wildling attack).

I made some cards up already, just what came to my mind first, making some examples of that. Bighab already confirmed he liked most of these, but I'll dump a few anytime there are better ideas. There is no 10th card yet at all.

If my other PBEM players agree we may testplay this deck in our next 4 player AGOT Mod game when we start over (Turn 3 in second run right now), so there is abit of time until then to consider and design that deck.


Here are my ideas so far:

1 - Pirates & Bandits: Each player loses one fifth of his gold +1 (for rounding up and making it at least one) if he has any.
Consolidate Power orders yield one power less this turn.

2 - Choppy Seas: Each player loses one ship (in Iron Throne order). Strength of ship support per territory is halved this turn (rounded down).

3 - Schemes: Each star order you are using this turn has to be paid by 1 power.
(deduced after revealing orders, max amount of star orders still determined by Kings Court)

4 - Wolves on the Prowl: Each player must downgrade one knight that is not inside walls (fort/city/stronghold). If unable to downgrade (out of units) the knight dies, he is save if all his knights are inside walls.
Supporting knights provide only one point of combat strength this turn.

5 - Large Crops: Each Player gains one level of supply on the tracks until the next supply adjustment. Wildling strength (if any) doubles !

6 - High Taxes: Collect power as for a Game of Thrones. Each Consolidate power order yields an additional power token this turn (bad luck if Feast for Crows is up).

7 - High Council: Each player MAY discard one of his house cards from his hand. Wildling Strength (if any) halves !

8 - High Moral: Troops marching with high spirits this turn, adding +1 to any march orders existing modifier.
(effectively negating the -1, making the regular to a +1, and turning the +1 to a +2)

9 - Outlaws & Mercenaries: Lose control over any area that is not a city or stronghold and has no units present.
Each player may pay up to 2 power for additional combat strength this turn for any single battle.
(strength of the same amount as power paid, 1 or 2 - Fiefdoms decides order of using)

10 - ?

Last edited on 2008-12-01 06:10:47 CST (Total Number of Edits: 4)
Paul Schulzetenberg
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Sounds like an interesting variant. Large Crops, High Morale, and Outlaws & Mercenaries could be real game-changers.

If I recall correctly, there's a card "Winter is Coming - Reshuffle this deck" in every Westeros deck. Seems like there's an easy answer for your tenth card.
James Morgan
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Ok I'll chime in with my opinions for each event :D
1.I like it although 1/5 of his power plus 1 minimum seems kinda low. Also if this event comes during a round where there is a clash people won't hold any power back. I like the idea of having each player in Iron Throne order must remove one power token on a empty controlled area off the board.
2.I love it
3.I love it. It should be noted that if you don't have any power tokens you can't place any starred orders.
4. I love it
5.Love it
6.Making it another game of thrones might be too helpful for players who control a lot of crowns already. I like it just being the effect of each crown order yields 1 more power
7.Love it
8. Good idea. Why not make it easier and say all March orders and a march+1 for the turn?
9.I like the first effect and prefer it used for card 1. I really don't like the idea of having a military support card for everyone available to be used anywhere.If people don't have the money they could get royally screwed over that turn. I like the idea of gaining mercenary units or as I said in my email a mercenary track.
Some new card ideas I thought of off the top of my head:
1-War Galleys:for this turn ships attack value is doubled to 2
2-Trebuchet: Seige engines provide a defensive strength of 2 this turn
3-Others attack:everyone loses a random house card.
4-Coastal Raiders:Land areas may raid seas areas this turn
5-Counter attack:If an area with a defense order is attacked and wins the battle the owner may immediately switch the defense order to a March+1
6-Hold the Line!Any support order used in defense of a city or stronghold this turn gains 1 additional strength
7-The Mighty shall fall!Any support order used in attacking a city or stronghold gains 1 additional strength(maybe combine this one with 6?)
8-Only the Strong shall survive! If an area with a defense order is attacked the losing units that retreat are not considered routed and may march or provide their strength while supporting
I know I can come up with more :D
Joel Schuster
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@Paul: basically we are using the Westeros Cards that come with ASOS, which have decision events instead of reshuffle cards. Saying basically because we did a little modification to the deck III cards to improve that deck. So I am really looking for another card, not a reshuffle one :)

Quote:
1.I like it although 1/5 of his power plus 1 minimum seems kinda low. Also if this event comes during a round where there is a clash people won't hold any power back. I like the idea of having each player in Iron Throne order must remove one power token on a empty controlled area off the board.


If there is a clash you're lucky and may spent your power, I'm doing this intentionally. There is also another effect for the card so its not useless ! As you spend all your power your income will be pretty little next turn so you're still exhausted, power-wise. We already have a card that removes power tokens from empty areas, so I dont want to get repetetive here. I agree the loss might be small by making it one fifth, but I thought reducing income by the other effect adds up for a loss as well. But I guess we can still make it to take away half each players gold, so lets do it like that :)

Quote:
6.Making it another game of thrones might be too helpful for players who control a lot of crowns already. I like it just being the effect of each crown order yields 1 more power


I agree that leading players are favoured to much by that, so I am violating my own rule :) If we just make it the other effect, then the card is usless when Feast For Crows is up, which may happen as much as twice a game with our decision cards. I dont like potentially useless cards, but then there are cards that say Nothing Happens as well.
I'll reconsider this card.


Quote:
8. Good idea. Why not make it easier and say all March orders and a march+1 for the turn?


Each march order is then worth the same, I like the fact that they have different values, that's why I'd just add +1 to each existing modifier. Seems just as easy but keeps the scaling alive so you'll still have to consider which order to put where. If you say each order is a march+1 now it doesnt matter anymore where you put them !


Quote:
9.I like the first effect and prefer it used for card 1. I really don't like the idea of having a military support card for everyone available to be used anywhere.If people don't have the money they could get royally screwed over that turn. I like the idea of gaining mercenary units or as I said in my email a mercenary track.


True that this card favours the one with coin at hand. I dont want to introduce merc units just by a single card though, we'll be working on your Merc Track soon enough, so I'll be reconsidering this card as well, maybe there is some other nice idea.

I'll comment on your ideas now.

Quote:
1-War Galleys:for this turn ships attack value is doubled to 2

Double sea attack seems to strong, a fleet of 4 ships will crush anyone, so the one going last might see the better end of it, and that specific turn everyone will need to play marches on his ships as attacking with them will make a TREMENDOUS difference. Also I dont see how the otherwise usual ships turn into War Galleys just for one turn. I'm afraid I have to say I dont like it.

Quote:
2-Trebuchet: Seige engines provide a defensive strength of 2 this turn

Like it despite the point that I think its rather situational, sieges may not even be in play or not even be played on a certain game, even then this card might most of the time be useless. Maybe give a more general name and have this effect as a secondary. Might be better like that, should sort of fit theme-wise.

Quote:
3-Others attack:everyone loses a random house card.

I hope you dont mean to remove the card from the rest of the game by saying "loses". Thats what that AFFC card did and I didnt like it at all. One guy might lose a useless card of 0 some other his 3 and that might be early in the game - too bad a random effect for my taste. Maybe make him discard a card, ok with that, maybe do combine with another effect like influencing Wildling Strength as well, would fit name-wise.

Quote:
4-Coastal Raiders:Land areas may raid seas areas this turn

Now thats interesting, I'll see if I can incorporate that to some card as , again, I dont like it that much as a single effect, as again there might be Sea of Storms up with the same probability like Feast for Crows, and then no raids are allowed at all and the card is useless. Btw I also though about giving archer units the general ability to raid sea areas, but then they would be too strong as they are. But getting rid of the unraidable sea support thing is definately a good idea.

Quote:
5-Counter attack:If an area with a defense order is attacked and wins the battle the owner may immediately switch the defense order to a March+1

Too wicked and occasional. If its up and I can win a battle I will attack anyways, so the effect will not take place at all. You'd never risk to lose a battle while attacking so your opponent will get a free counterattack. Also there is only one march+1 order in a real game, by this you'd all of a sudden could get several ones, even if unlikely. I'm afraid this one wouldnt work at all.

Quote:
6-Hold the Line!Any support order used in defense of a city or stronghold this turn gains 1 additional strength

Hmm, not quite sure, isnt support strong enough already ? Also holding a line is kind of contrary to the support concept in this game, which allows support for several times in either direction, so you may play a support on Stoney Sept for instance which will give +1 to Lannisport, Riverrun and Harrenhal. Holding a line does mean for me to really concentrate on holding some special point, not just everything. Same goes for alot of other regions. 7 picks that up as well, not sure if I like it :/

Quote:
8-Only the Strong shall survive! If an area with a defense order is attacked the losing units that retreat are not considered routed and may march or provide their strength while supporting



Quote:
I know I can come up with more :D

Just too wicked, if you want that why not say this turn no unit will be regarded as being routed as a more general effect. Not saying whether I like it or not by that :)


Quote:
I know I can come up with more :D


Go ahead buddy, I just pick the best out of it :D
Thx for your input ! Maybe someone else has good ideas as well ?
Last edited on 2008-12-01 10:37:27 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Adam McLean
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Umbratus wrote:

10 - ?



For that 10th spot, how about a choice card -- such as whoever has the most cities/strongholds (ties broken by Iron Throne order) may choose between 2 options (undecided). Or drop a card from the list and have 2 choice cards.


As far as the ones you suggested, they all seem pretty good and I like the idea of trying to help the players struggling, especially for groups that don't like to eliminate opponents. There would be only a couple things that I'd change:

1 -- Rather than having people try to figure out the math, I'd prefer something a little more straight forward, such as (or something similar), 'Every player loses 2 power tokens' or 'Every player loses 1 power token for each area with a crown controlled without a unit'. But I do like CP orders gaining 1 less token.

2 -- Could really hurt a player already struggling with sea strength, maybe something along the lines that 'Ships may not support land battles on this turn'.

3 -- I like it

4 -- I like it

5 -- I like it, I'd maybe just add a Wildling icon (or 2) to the card rather than doubling, but not objectionable to doubling it.

6 -- I also think the collect power might be too much, but I like the additional power gained by CP orders. It gives a slight advantage to those who can play star orders.

7 -- I like it, but similar to number 5, I would downgrade the Wildling attack 1 spot, but not objectionable to halving.

8 -- I like it, just saying 'Add +1 to all march orders' would probably suffice.

9 -- I like the 1st part, 2nd part I could go either way on, possibly something such as 'Add +1 to all support orders' instead.



Just a few thoughts off the top of my head, but I like the idea of adding a 4th deck, it would make things interesting.
Joel Schuster
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Thx for your opinion Adam !

I'll keep thinking on it...
James Morgan
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OK thanx for your input. I have thought of a few changes for the cards you liked the best along with some more ideas :D I am willing to compromise your Outlaws/Mercenary card to spend 1 power for 1 strength. I also see your point for High Moral of giving +1 to each march order
1-Others AttackEveryone discards a random house card(not for the game though)and everyone loses 1 knight to the wall.
2-Only the Strong shall survive! Units are not routed this turn.
3-Tyroshi TradersFor every ship in a port you own gain 2 power
4-Knife in the back!When resolving a consolidate power order thats adjacent to an opponent instead of receiving the power tokens from the order your opponent loses the amount of power tokens normally gained times 2. If feast for crows is in effect gain 1 power for every battle you win against your opponent from him.
Joel Schuster
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I like the idea of stealing power for when you win a battle !

Guess I'll take that over and combine with the effect of troops not being routed for a turn to make that a single card.

What I dont like is that you name a exception (FeastForCrows) and then make it a totally different effect. Thats pretty long winded and then you have some effects who have a chance to never come to play even in like 10 games or more.

The more elegant way of handling that is to simply put two effects on a card, one of them may be cancelled out and one which may never be cancelled so its assured to happen.

So I'll revise the deck, make it 10 cards with the new ideas and critique that has been brougth up when I have some time for it, maybe today maybe tomorrow.

Think I'll partly have to abandon the idea of helping out the weaker houses and dont give further advantage to the leaders, you may do that on some cards but surely not on all of them I realized.
Samuel Korn
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Umbratus wrote:


Quote:
6-Hold the Line!Any support order used in defense of a city or stronghold this turn gains 1 additional strength

Hmm, not quite sure, isnt support strong enough already ? Also holding a line is kind of contrary to the support concept in this game, which allows support for several times in either direction, so you may play a support on Stoney Sept for instance which will give +1 to Lannisport, Riverrun and Harrenhal. Holding a line does mean for me to really concentrate on holding some special point, not just everything. Same goes for alot of other regions. 7 picks that up as well, not sure if I like it :/


how does that sound?

Hold the Line!
Any support order in this turn may be used in defense of a city or stronghold and gains 1 additional strength.
The support order is removed once used (to strengthen the defense of a city/stronghold).

This reflects the possibility to bring supporting troops into the city as a reinforcement. Once envolved in fighting (siegelike) they cannot storm back to their original region to give support somewhere else. Before a support order is used in the sense of Hold the Line! it can be used as a normal support order.

edit: same for The Mighty Shall Fall!

edit2: question to Umbratus: Do you think the game becomes too random if deck IV is bigger than ten cards? As I understand it Deck IV mainly refreshes the whole eventcard-system with some extraordinary cards that can have a big impact on the game when used correctly. I think game experience could be even more unique when you have a draw of 10/20 cards per game for example.
Last edited on 2008-12-03 05:00:21 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Joel Schuster
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Hmm, I find it rather occasional that this effect will come into play at all. Playing with sieges and archers a single point of strength migth still matter, might even decide a game, but then if you add up all probabilities I think its too far away from actually seeing some influence any day.

I mean you'll have to drop your support to gain +1 strength just once, we might be talking about say a 5 or 6 strength support that protects other areas as well, it might be a sea support which closes up your vital naval point. You'd not even be able to gain that +1 support because you had to drop your support and be vulnerable for a counterattack.

I prefer cards that have at least some certain chance of influencing the game to a certain degree (not too much) which are not too complex in their abilities and preliminaries.


You could do like 20 cards as well and shuffle them in one big deck to get a few refreshing new elements into the game, too random, yeah well I think a game is pretty random when you start with 3 Supply events or 3 clashes in a row just to see no other happen anymore. For these new events of deck IV which should have less influence to the game than the original three events, I think you're fine as long as you really keep the influence to a certain low level then you might implement any amount of cards to pick from. Remember as you start in Turn 3 (just my suggestion to keep these new possible influences away from early build-up phase) no more than 8 cards of deck IV will be played if the game lasts until the very last Turn. So I for myself would rather pick 10 good cards and go with them. Maybe do a second alternative set of 10 cards so you may alternate between games but players roughly know what to expect during the cause of a game.

Basically I think you should play how you prefer and this thread will give nice and good examples of how to do cards for a 4th deck, so what you do is pick up ideas and make a deck according to your preferences :)
Last edited on 2008-12-03 05:52:25 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Joel Schuster
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Here would be my own prefered 10 cards so far:

1 - Pirates & Bandits: Each player loses half of his gold +1 (loss rounded up). Consolidate Power orders yield one power less this turn.

2 - Choppy Seas: Each player loses one ship (in Iron Throne order). Strength of ship support per territory is halved this turn (rounded down).

3 - Schemes: Each star order you are using this turn has to be paid by 1 power. If you cannot pay for them you cannot use them.
(deduced after revealing orders, max amount of star orders still determined by Kings Court)

4 - Wolves on the Prowl: Each player must downgrade one knight that is not inside walls (fort/city/stronghold). If unable to downgrade (out of units) the knight dies, he is save if all his knights are inside walls.
Supporting knights provide only one point of combat strength this turn (no matter where)

5 - Large Crops: Each Player gains one level of supply on the tracks until the next supply adjustment. Wildling strength (if any) doubles !

6 - High Taxes: Each player gains as many power tokens as he is lacking victory points for the win. Each Consolidate power order yields an additional power token this turn (bad luck if Feast for Crows is up).

7 - High Council: Each player MAY discard one of his house cards from his hand. Wildling Strength (if any) halves !

8 - High Moral: Troops marching with high spirits this turn, adding +1 to any march orders existing modifier.
(effectively negating the -1, making the regular to a +1, and turning the +1 to a +2)

9 - Hold The Line: Troops defending with high spirits this turn, adding +1 combat strength to any area with a defense order present.

10 - Outlaws & Mercenaries: Lose control over any area that is not a city or stronghold and has no units present.
For each battle that is fought this turn the winning player may steal one power token from the defeated player (if any left).


Changed card 1 so half the power is now lost, there needs to be a card to counter this by giving more income instead. Doing another Game of Thrones was the obvious idea but then it helps houses that are leading the board already alot more, so I changed for a new idea, provide gold depending on how many VPs you have at the moment. Someone might be beaten down on 2 cities, he gains 5 power, leader of the board sits on 5 or 6, he only gains 1 or 2 power. Good idea ? Secondary effect stays the same though, +1 for each CP this turn, also evening out card 1's effect.

There is now High Moral and Hold the Line, complementing each other. I think instead of making support orders even more powerful than they already are, better make Defend orders abit more powerful for a single turn. More often than not Defend orders matter little and they will not even be played at all. Also with this new Hold the Line card players may decide where to put that bonus this turn exactly, doesnt necessarily have to be a city but a barrel or some otherwise crucial area that needs good protection this turn. Last but not least I think this effect does better reflect the cards actual name :)

Card no 10 now got rid of its kind of Military Support ability (derived from the ASOS ally cards) but got the ability James proposed, steal one power from your enemy when you win a battle.

Think that makes a nice deck, which I'd like to playtest in a next game. Still taking critique for this deck and new ideas as well. You can also still throw in new ideas here for folks looking for a 4th deck as well, and if meanwhile there are other great ideas, I might also drop cards of mine on favor of new ones.

I'll report which effects we saw with the cards for sure when they are tested, may take abit of time though until a new game starts.

Edit: I kept the double/half Wildling strength modifiers, deck IV will always be played after deck III so in some cases there will not even be a Wildling strength to modify and 12 is max in any case. Large crops makes the wildlings grow fast as well, and the High Council sends emissaries in persons of the cards that are discarded up to the Wall to handle some of the threat :) That was my thinking about the background :)
Last edited on 2008-12-03 06:07:47 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Piotr Jekel
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Quote:
2 - Choppy Seas: Each player loses one ship (in Iron Throne order). Strength of ship support per territory is halved this turn (rounded down).


Maybe instead of losing ships and halving the support, it would be better to completely shut off the seas. It is simpler and changes the dynamics of the game.

"This turn you may not place orders on ships nor use ships to transport any troops."

Other ideas:
Riots - For each city under your control, you have to pay 1 gold or remove a unit worth 1 mustering point.

Equal footing - For this turn, all the Houses are considered to have equal (highest) position of influence on the Fiefdoms and King's Court tracks. You cannot use the sword nor the raven.








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