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Emivaldo Sousa
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Successors (3rd Edition) » Forums » Reviews
Killing people, getting married, organizing funerals and other fun activities.
Successors is a downright fantastic game. And that’s it, you just read the review on that first phrase. From now on I will just tell you why.

1. The setting:

Some games have a good theme; some games have its mechanisms well integrated with the theme, but it is rare to see a game outside of the RPG crowd that actually tells a story.
I know a lot of wargames recreates battles with a lot of detail, but I’m not a wargamer and I couldn’t give you an example even if my life depended on it.

In any case, Successors doesn’t just recreate a battle – while playing the game, you really have the sensation that you are rewriting the history of the succession of Alexander (the Great, or so I’ve heard).

Alexander is dead and eight generals are split in four factions. Each faction claims that they are the righteous successor to the throne (I don’t know if Alexander had a throne, but work with me here). To prove their point of view they are willing to give Alexander a proper burial, protect his sons, marry his allies and only enter combat if a threat to the unification of the Empire appears. Or…

…You can choose the Dark Side and bury the dead guy in the first hole you see, kill children and women and stomp with Elephants everyone that looks you the wrong way. Or…

…A mix of all those things. Ii is like playing the RPG Knights of The Old Republic in a board game. All of this stuff has been woven into the game system, and more often than not, their implementation are elegant, makes sense and adds to the gameplay.

2. The system:

You will find a little bit of everything here and it can be a little confusing if you are an eurogamer that is used to 5-pages rulebooks. To be fair, even seasoned ameritrashers will probably overlook a rule or two in their first plays (I did). Veteran wargamers will probably play this with their eyes closed and their hands in the back (they would have to spit the dice, though).

I won’t go into details, but I’ll give you the highlights:

2.1 – Asymmetrical forces: the 2 generals that you start with are randomly dealt. You can start the game drowning in Victory Points, sandwiched between enemies or babysitting what’s left of Alexander’s legacy (including his body).

2.2 – Multiple Victory conditions: if you go for conquest, you will amass VP (Victory Condition 1); If you try to bury Alexander in the appropriate place and be a really nice guy all around, you will gain Legitimacy (Victory Condition 2); Or you can strike a deal with an Alexander heir and declare yourself regent, adding both your VP and Legitimacy points to form a grand total of Awesomeness Points (Victory condition 3). Those conditions are triggered in different ways that I won’t say because it feels like telling you the end of the movie.

2.3 – The Usurper: the player with the most VP is labeled as a threat and can be attacked freely and without penalty (loss of Legitimacy, which you might need to win). In other words: you are officially free to gang up on the leader! That’s just one of the most fun rules ever.

2.4 – The combat system: blood everywhere! If you win, you lose one unit. If you lost, you might lose more units and what’s left of your army goes crying to the dispersed box. The soldiers that are not killed are humiliated – fun, fun, fun and fun. I’ll make a hat with the words “I lost and ran for my life without direction and screaming like a little girl” to give to whomever is defeated in a battle. Add to that crazy elephants (you don’t know if they are going to be useful) and a brilliant loyalty system (if your army carries men loyal to Alexander, they will not fight against a general with more Legitimacy than you) and you have a tense and interesting dice rolling affair.

2.5 – Fate cards (Tyche Cards, actually): You could play the game without the card phase because there’s a separated movement phase in which you can do the works: move, fight, siege, etc. The card phase is an opportunity to make a bonus play and to add events and special powers to the mix. The cards add chaos, but also variety and options to the game, and the chaos is not enough to hurt the strategic part of the game. Of course, a player with an incredible good hand can make a lot of stuff happen, but I can live with that. More often than not, if someone is going too well, he is just putting a target in his chest.

2.6 – Production Values: if you are a wargamer (or a GMT fan) you will probably cry when you see the mounted board. It is very, very nice. The cardboard components are almost OK, but the idea to print different Units on the backside of the chit is bad. You save space, but for clumsy apes like me and my friends that are constantly bumping in the army piles, the chits are sometimes flipped and it is not easy to remember which side it was in the first place. Also, one of the bases for the Generals is of the wrong color. Nothing major, but when a game is this good, every little thing annoys you, because you know that the dam thing could be even better!

3- The exceptions and special rules:

Some games, in order to be realistic, add a bunch of exceptions that are usually distracting, hard to remember and potentially hurting to the gameplay. “General Weird had a bad leg, so he only moves one space”, “Private Nelson was schizophrenic so you have to roll on table number 43 to see if he is really going to be able to shoot and if he is going to target an enemy or an ally”. To me Blackbeard is a fine example of this kind of game. I find that a lot of rules in that game just brings the whole package down, realistic as they may be. In successors I think that the exceptions work, they add to the gameplay and make it more fun. I think that’s quite an achievement and I think that, because of this, it is a wargame accessible to a bigger crowd. I’ve already tried it with people with different gaming backgrounds (and tastes) and we all found that the game was great. Just don’t bring the kids and casual gamers – it is definitely geared towards people that already have some gaming scars and tattoos.

The bad news?

1. It is quite long (but not as much after some plays), You are looking at something between 3 and 5 hours.

2. I can’t see it working with less than four players. I know some people will dig it anyway, but I think the appeal of the game is incredibly reduced with less than the optimum number of four players.

3. Uneven levels of experience with the game may lead to some frustration, as some new player might forget one of the special rules and throw himself out of the game with a bad move.

4. Moving around the board may not be as swift as it could be, as other players sit in choke points. Sometimes you may feel that the game badly needs an expansion that adds motorized transport and airplanes. But it is obviously a design choice and I'm just nitpicking now.

Final word (or should it be initial?)

Blood, elephants, marriage with cardboard women, funerals and the good old dice rolling. The whole package can really be resumed in the first phrase: Successors is a downright fantastic game.
Todd Pytel
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070809
Nice review. I just played this for the first time last week, and I think your review captures the fun chaos of the game quite well.

zinho73 wrote:
In any case, Successors doesn’t just recreate a battle – while playing the game, you really have the sensation that you are rewriting the history of the succession of Alexander (the Great, or so I’ve heard).

I agree on the aspect of being able to choose different paths - aiming for succession via legitimacy or military power or a combination. That's a really fun part of the game. But I felt the event cards were a bit lacking on historical storyline compared to other CDG's like Twilight Struggle, Hannibal, or Here I Stand. Many of them seemed very generic - "Treachery", "Unrest Spreads", etc. Not a huge deal by any means, but not quite as flavorful in that department as some other games.

Quote:
Veteran wargamers will probably play this with their eyes closed and their hands in the back.

No, I don't think so. The guys I played with are part of our regular Here I Stand group, and I've played lots of Twilight Struggle and Hannibal as well. All of those GMT CDG's use enough of the same mechanics to feel familiar, but have enough differences to trip you up. The movement and combat systems are rather different in Successors from the others, for example. I wouldn't advise anyone to walk into a game of this totally blind, even if they're CDG veterans. You still need to give the rules at least half a read before your first play.

Quote:
...the 2 generals that you start with are randomly dealt. You can start the game drowning in Victory Points, sandwiched between enemies...

That would be me. :) Nothing like starting off the game as the Usurper trying to hold down the Hellespont (no Major Cities to hole up in there).

Quote:
2.3 – The Usurper: the player with the most VP is labeled as a threat and can be attacked freely and without penalty (loss of Legitimacy, which you might need to win). In other words: you are officially free to gang up on the leader! That’s just one of the most fun rules ever.

I think The Usurper mechanism has pluses and minuses. It's fun, but it also contributes to the chaos and makes it hard to have a coherent long term strategy. Sometimes I'm cool with that, other times not so much.

Quote:
2.4 – The combat system: blood everywhere!

No kidding. It's probably the bloodiest combat system I've played, which contributes to the chaos even more. If an army gets whacked unexpectedly early in the turn, it definitely changes the game drastically for everyone.

Quote:
In successors I think that the exceptions work, they add to the gameplay and make it more fun.

I didn't find it to be too heavy on exceptions per se. More that there are just a lot of flavor rules and events in there - things like Alex's body, toting around heirs, marrying chicks, etc. I find those easier to remember than exceptions myself. If you really want to see exceptions, try playing GBoH.

Quote:
4. Moving around the board may not be as swift as it could be, as other players sit in choke points.

But that's kind of the point, isn't it? I mean... your geographic position is one of the very few reliable things you've got going for you. Everything else could change at the drop of a hat, but you at least know you're base is in Egypt or Babylon or whatever. At least until you get unexpectedly jacked by someone and your dudes end up reentering far away on the next turn.
Mark Bigney
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I agree that Successors is an amazing game, and that the rules complexity for wargamers is rather low. I had been somewhat daunted by the prevailing opinion on the geek that is was a complicated CDG, but in my estimation it's on the simpler end of the scale.
But... Knights of the Old Republic? :) I don't get it.
Richard Berg
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"I felt the event cards were a bit lacking on historical storyline compared to other CDG's like Twilight Struggle, Hannibal, or Here I Stand. Many of them seemed very generic - "Treachery", "Unrest Spreads", etc. "

Those supposedly generic events stand for several historical events that occured throught the era of the diadochoi.

And it is my specific design intent that you cannot win the game by having a player play an event to win for which he had no control in any way in history . . .a drawback of HERE I STAND, among others. "Move 2 armies or Kill the Czar" makes no sense to me in terms of decision-making. I tend to stay with outlying factors rather than specific events . . . there is a difference.

RHB
Emivaldo Sousa
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Gyges wrote:
I agree that Successors is an amazing game, and that the rules complexity for wargamers is rather low. I had been somewhat daunted by the prevailing opinion on the geek that is was a complicated CDG, but in my estimation it's on the simpler end of the scale.
But... Knights of the Old Republic? :) I don't get it.


First of all, sorry to take so long to answer...
Knights of the Old Republic is a computer RPG. The setting is the Star Wars universe and you can, at a number of times, choose to be bad or good. Successors is of course nothing like the RPG per se, but I've got the same feeling when I was trying to avoid battles in Successors to retain Legitimacy.
Emivaldo Sousa
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To Todd:

I found that the events are OK. Some with more flavor, some more geared towards tactical options - I enjoyed the mix. And the background history of the generals in the manual really placed things in perspective for me, it got me in the right mood for the game and the bearable, controlled and fun chaos that ensued.

What I was trying to say with that whole "eyes closed" thing is that the game would be really easy to grasp for veterans, but I do thing that it has its unique elements, and just jump in might be unwise.

And I also would like to stress (agreeing with the other post) that I really think that this would make a great introductory wargame: enough meat and options, but really manageable in the rules department. We've made a few mistakes, but nothing too serious and the game felt quite fluid with just a bunch of trips to the manual.
Emivaldo Sousa
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BROG wrote:
"I felt the event cards were a bit lacking on historical storyline compared to other CDG's like Twilight Struggle, Hannibal, or Here I Stand. Many of them seemed very generic - "Treachery", "Unrest Spreads", etc. "

Those supposedly generic events stand for several historical events that occured throught the era of the diadochoi.

And it is my specific design intent that you cannot win the game by having a player play an event to win for which he had no control in any way in history . . .a drawback of HERE I STAND, among others. "Move 2 armies or Kill the Czar" makes no sense to me in terms of decision-making. I tend to stay with outlying factors rather than specific events . . . there is a difference.

RHB


Hey! Thanks for the comment and thanks for this great game. I'm not a wargamer and I usually shy away from rules with exceptions and special cases in order to recreate the historical facts, but in Successors I felt that everything just "clicked" in a way that made sense to me.

Two friends of mine are big fans of your designs and one of them brought the game to my attention. Good investment of time and lots of fun all around.

The only thing we are still in doubt is about unrest - in the manual I got the impression that the independents can appear in a big city, but I found that too strong and wondered if it could really be triggered anywhere in the region rolled.

In any case, best regards and keep bringing us great games. I'm trying to venture in the design arena myself and people like you are always an inspiration.


Wendell A
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Quote:
Veteran wargamers will probably play this with their eyes closed and their hands in the back (they would have to spit the dice, though).


Eee-uuuwwww. Dice spit!

:D

Great review. I gotta buy it. Grrr.
Andre Oliveira
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Cara, excelente review! Agora fiquei com vontade de comprar o jogo...

Abraços,

Elwood
Emivaldo Sousa
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Obrigado.

Achei o jogo uma excelente introdução pros wargames. Só é um pouco difícil de ver mesa por causa do tempo de jogo, mas vale a pena.

I thought that the game is an excellent introduction to wargames. It is only a little bit difficult to hit the table due to its length, but it sure is worth it.

Valeu e um abraço,
James Lowry
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Great review, I've been very happy with this one so far!

Quote:
2.4 – The combat system: blood everywhere! ... and you have a tense and interesting dice rolling affair.

Another interesting point that you skipped is that the more effective your leader is, the more likely he is to die in combat. The odds are never high that he'll die in any given battle, but they are significant.

I personally like the event cards. I've seen two ways to do it (which is probably because I've only seen two CDGs...), here, where you go for a fairly generalized feel for the types of events that happened in the period, leavened by a few specific incidents; or a relatively tight-scripted deck that just leaves you in doubt as to when certain things will happen, not if (Paths of Glory/Pursuit of Glory ). They both work, and work well, though I think I prefer the Successors approach in the long run.
Emivaldo Sousa
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I tend to agree with you James. More scripted events in the cards might be more realistic, but I think the Successors approach grants replayability, specially if you are, like me, not a heavy wargamer.
James Lowry
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I'm not even convinced it's more realistic. It is more historical, but that's my problem; I'm worried that such systems can be used to bludgeon people into a purely historical route.

Pursuit of Glory does this quite explicitly with a card that is designed to be the first play of the game. On the other hand, it's not required, and the scope widens out from there (in stages: each player can be expected to go through 12-14 of 14 available cards in the first two turns, and then the next set comes in). Despite that, I'm very happy with the game so far, and I do see a wonderful amount of replayability in PuG. So, I'm far from having come to a final judgment on the subject.
Emivaldo Sousa
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Although I loved the battle system of Hannibal, I did think that the historical (rather than realistic, you are right) context kind of hurt the game replayability to me, but mostly because I couldn't appreciate the nuanced variations of the system. As I said I'm neither a wargamer nor a historical buff, so...

Successors appeared to be free of those constrictions, as subjective as they might be.

But I get your point. I'm also not nearly experienced enough to say if the card system is decisive in the variety that the game can offer. But I do have the impression that a more historical mechanism could be more restrictive. At least to my unrefined view.:)
Andre Oliveira
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OK, man. You've made me buy the game. I hope you're happy now...
Seriously, the game just arrived and it looks incredible, as you have mentioned. And I like the rules. Coming from a Twilight Struggle and Paths of Glory background, I think Successors brings interesting new elements to a very clever system.
Thanks for the "inspiring" review. Keep'em coming. And if you ever come to Sao Paulo, let's play it!
Last edited on 2009-02-26 14:09:46 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Emivaldo Sousa
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aro246 wrote:
OK, man. You've made me buy the game. I hope you're happy now...
Seriously, the game just arrived and it looks incredible, as you have mentioned. And I like the rules. Coming from a Twilight Struggle and Paths of Glory background, I think Successors brings interesting new elements to a very clever system.
Thanks for the "inspiring" review. Keep'em coming. And if you ever come to Sao Paulo, let's play it!


Hey! good gaming.
Sorry BGG community, but I'll enter Portuguese mode in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1... engage.

No ano passado fui pra Sampa direto, mas neste ano devo ficar ilhado em Brasília. Por isso, devolvo a cortesia: se estiver em Brasília não deixe de entrar em contato. Temos um clube, o Heavy Games, na Ilha do Tabuleiro - fique à vontade para nos visitar lá também.

Abraço!
Andre Oliveira
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That's a deal!
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