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Battlestar Galactica
» Forums » Reviews
A ameritrash game this europlayer enjoyed
PrefaceDon't read too much into the subject of this review, I don't know what's the proper criteria for ameritrash and if Battlestar Galactica fulfills that criteria. In any case I'm clearly not in the target market segment for this game, my best ranked games feature open information and no random elements, but still I have enjoyed my two goes with Battlestar Galactica. It's not a game I expected to like, but I must have some sympathy for it. This occured to me when I realised that after last session I was criticizing how some elements are unthematic, instead of putting down the game for being a random, fiddly, long and plagued with downtime. Let's see if we can break this love/ hate relationship down. Gamers game, if gamers took dramaLet's make one thing clear right now, just to save my europlaying face. I don't think Battlestar Galactica is a good boardgame. Others, even the fans who rate Battlestar Galactica highly, have confirmed this. Battlestar Galactica can be great fun with a right bunch. This doesn't make it a good game, it just makes the bunch good players. Battlestar Galactica is a game that sinks or swims solely on the players ability and willingness to lose themselves into the game and staying in character. If you only enjoy figuring the optimized chain of actions or calculating odds I won't be enjoying Battlestar Galactica with you. There are so many games that offer more interesting optimization opportunities, playing Battlestar Galactica just for the mechanics is an exercise in futility. As stated, with a right bunch Battlestar Galactica can be a riot. Everyone is suspecting each other, accusations going all directions, every action of every player undergoes scrutiny, whether that move puts you in the human or cylon camp. Even better if the players are playing in character, not automatically choosing the best action, but choosing an action justifiable for his character. After all the players are characters inside game, not just some undefined forces pulling the strings from outside the game. For me such setup is refreshing and one of the factors I did enjoy the game. Making any comparisons to actual RPGs is silly, but for a boardgame Battlestar Galactica does an excellent job in setting up the stage to help players get inside the game. New set of standardsIt is clear that if I were to rate Battlestar Galactica by my usual standards it would not rate high. Two or three sounds about right. But I had to face the fact that playing was so fun that such a low rating would be unfair. So I forgave the game my usual dislikes, I had to come up with new standards to rate Battlestar Galactica. The theme is great and masterfully executed in the game, I actually got in the series because of the game, not the other way around. The components are nice and plentiful, I do love my wooden cubes so I'm usually indifferent towards components, but let's put it this way: The best thing about components is that they look good without putting form over function. The mechanics are simple, giving room for the detuction making and arguing. The game is long, but the first half of the game just flies by. If every ameritrash game was like this I might just fall to the dark side (disclaimer: I do not believe that ameritrash players or ameritrash games are evil or associated in any way with the dark side). If that sounded like I should be rating Battlestar Galactica nine instead of six, next I'll tell you why I don't. In fine the game just falls apart when the cylons are discovered. That's it, no more fun, no more inspired trash talk busting with laughter, no more taking any interest in other players actions, instead the game transforms in a dull race. At this point downtime also becomes an issue, I'm no longer interested in how many cards you put down on the skill test. I know will your cards be positive or negative, just get it over with and pass the turn. And at this point also my original reasons to dislike the game resurface and I no longer can forgive those because the fun is lost. The race itself isn't gripping or the optimizing interesting because there just are not that many options. The poor mechanics now shine through instead of making room like before. Maybe there still is hopeThe thing is, Battlestar Galactica is still a game, not a drama class exercise, so you can't blame the cylon characters for revealing themselves even at the cost of the atmosphere. If you are playing to win and see an window of opportunity you have to take it. The fun ends here and so should the game. After the last cylon is detected there should just be one final fight to determine the winners. I don't care if that solution would be unthematic, but the race segment shouldn't last more than 20 minutes. Instead the game can drag on for an hour and half and neither cylon nor human players have very much to do in their turn. In this type of fast end variant the cylons would benefit more by doing little damage here and there going undetected, the amount of sabotage would add up in a low chance for the humans to succeed in the last push. Maybe even a variant rule that in the final showdown the undetected cylons would be more dangerous than the detcted ones. I can't write rules for such variant, but if the game end was as I envision it I would drop eurogames like a bad habit. Battlestar Galactica is close, but no cigar. Second big thing that bothers me in Battlestar Galactica is the Symphatizer Card. I konow it's been discussed over and over, but I have to bring it up again. Normally such a mechanic might not bother me, I would just game it. Battlestar Galactica is so reliant on theme that gaming this mechanic becomes irritating. In our last game we guided an undefended helpless civilian ship next to cylons in order to put one resource in the red beofre the sleeper phase. Everyone agreed that it's a good move, we certainly didn't want more cylons on board. This mechanic is so stupid it alone might turn people off, before my next game I have to have some variant to fix this problem. After all, if I wanted to make unrational and unthematic, but mechanics wise optimal moves, I'd stick to my eurogames. AfterwordSo as a heavy eurogames fan can I recommend Battlestar Galactica to other heavy eurogames fans? I did enjoy the game, but the answer is still no. If you can't stand random, fiddly, long games plagued with downtime, you can't stand Battlestar Galactica. If you are fan of the series it might help, but you still need to find a group of players that are able to suit up for the game and you really need to be able and willing to let the game take you on a ride to enjoy it. I'm happy that I have such a group of players and I'm happy to have scratched the surface of the other side of boardgaming. I hope to put on the face of Gaius Baltar again one day, but in the meantime I think I'll continue to favour trains and wooden cubes.
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Tom Hancock
United States Charleston West Virginia
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mikko_r wrote: (disclaimer: I do not believe that ameritrash players or ameritrash games are evil or associated in any way with the dark side).
You must not have got the memo. Thanks for the great review - I played BSG for the first time last night, and my only criticism of it was that the outcome of the game seemed driven by the symbols on the bottom of the crisis cards to the exclusion of the player's actions. That will probably change as I play it more.
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Chaz Donnell
United States Houston Texas
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I think you've got this one pretty much spot on. Me and some friends have been playing this as much as we can since it arrived at Christmas and everything in the above reflects my feelings about the game pretty much to a T.
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Joe Niezelski
United States Torrington Connecticut
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Yeah, this is the best summary of BSG's negatives that I've seen. I find the Sympathizer rule enough of a turn-off that I don't think I'd play with 4 or 6 players without a variant.
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Mr. Bistro
United States Unspecified Virginia
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mikko_r wrote: So as a heavy eurogames fan can I recommend Battlestar Galactica to other heavy eurogames fans? I did enjoy the game, but the answer is still no. If you can't stand random, fiddly, long games plagued with downtime, you can't stand Battlestar Galactica. I don't get the "plagued with downtime" bit. BSG turns are very short, and half of a player's turn involve everyone else helping out. To me it seems like the least amount of downtime possible. I also want to say that the trash talk does not have to stop when someone reveals themselves as the cylon. I have great fun sitting on the cylon side of the board taunting the other players ("Gosh guys, you're really in a jam. Don't worry I'll help contribute to the crisis.").
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Ed H
United Kingdom Newport Gwent
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DuckAndCower wrote: Yeah, this is the best summary of BSG's negatives that I've seen. I find the Sympathizer rule enough of a turn-off that I don't think I'd play with 4 or 6 players without a variant. My brothers had the same concern after we played this game the first time, particularly the one who ended up drawing the sympathiser card during the game. FFG have put a .pdf document online with updated rules for several variants; one player, fully co-operative and a variant that does away with the sympathiser card, replacing it with another "Not a Cylon" card and starting the humans off with slightly lower resources to compensate. The four of us played a game using that variant of the rules last night, and found that it worked very well. I'm impressed with how quickly the FFG team have pulled out several new variant rulesets for the game - I'm hoping this bodes well for expansions. I'm also impressed with the way the game designer has been bouncing around here on BGG answering questions - I think the level of support being shown for the game is well worth an extra point on any score at this point :)
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Ryan Newell
Canada Regina Saskatchewan
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I think you give the game design too little credit. Do you think people are having fun in spite of the game they're playing or because of the game they're playing? The people I've introduced it to think it's a great game because of how the mechanics facilitate our fun experiences. There are different philosophies of game design. I think BSG's design is a huge success in ways that you don't seem to appreciate, perhaps because you're hyper-aware of what you think it lacks compared to your preferred style of games. It's cool if you have problems with the design. No game will work for everyone. But, as one of the people who rate this game a 10, I think you're wrong in your statement that even fans of this game recognize that it isn't actually good. I think it's a fantastic design (and still lots of fun with all the Cylons revealed).
Last edited on 2009-01-02 15:12:10 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Russell Newstrom
United States
California
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I think that it is funny that the OP feels obligated to harp on a game he obviously enjoyed (well at least mostly enjoyed).
Particularly that the assertion that this is a bad (but fun LOL) boardgame. I get what the OP was saying, but I have to wonder if anyone can name a good game that doesn't suffer from a bad/mediocre play group or benefit from a good one!
Likewise, the idea that the game is fun inspite of the mechanics is more than a little odd... The hidden Cylon tension is what the game is all about, it is the core mechanic of the game. It makes the normally easy optimization of this game very complex because the best solution for the humans requires a lot of trust, which is also very risky because of the threat of betrayal.
This dilema was obviously built into the mechanics of the game, to say that the hidden Cylon phase of the game is enjoyable for the reasons listed but the mechanics are trash is non-sensical IMO.
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mikko_r wrote: I don't think Battlestar Galactica is a good boardgame. Others, even the fans who rate Battlestar Galactica highly, have confirmed this. Battlestar Galactica can be great fun with a right bunch. This doesn't make it a good game, it just makes the bunch good players. I don't know who came up with this equation. It's obviously bullshit. The guys I play games with are people I still know from school and clearly we don't need a board game to have fun hanging around together. But a board game as any other medium (e.g. a movie) should be valued by its ability to invoke entertainment. I.e. we can play Carcassonne and be bored to death, or we could play Battlestar Galactica and have a shit-load of fun. mikko_r wrote: It is clear that if I were to rate Battlestar Galactica by my usual standards it would not rate high. Two or three sounds about right. But I had to face the fact that playing was so fun that such a low rating would be unfair. So I forgave the game my usual dislikes, I had to come up with new standards to rate Battlestar Galactica. Why do you need "standards" to rate games? Does some obsessive-compulsive disorder force you to rate games according to self-imposed strident criteria. I'd say rate games compliant with how you like/enjoy them and be done with it. (I even use only a 5 point scale, because I wouldn't know how to differentiate my ratings more than Very good/Good/Average/Bad/Very bad.) Anyways, I don't get why Battlestar Galactica's game system is criticized so much. It's a good blender of tested rules and a few innovations, and therefore not unlike any other board game published year by year. This includes eurogames; designers of which slowly appear to be more or less copycats as of late, continually squandering their reputation of being the great innovators in the hobby.
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Thanks for all of the comments so far. In this reply I will try to further describe why I felt the need to write the review and really put my finger on what it was that bugged me. Before replying to some of the comments let me preface with two hypotetical scenarios. First let's assume Battlestar Galactica didn't include cylons as player characters. I haven't read the full co-op variant suggested by BrokenMnemonic, so just imagine the game as is without cylons. It's only win or lose for all, players draw cards and play them on skill tests. Some hand management, some thinking about who should do what, but this would not be a game I would have even tried in the first place. Next let's imagine there are cylon player characters, but they would not be hidden to begin with. The game would be a team battle, cylons throwing crisis at humans. Basically just the second half of the game, and again not a game I would have tried. By these two scenarios I hope to prove that the hidden cylons are the heart of Battlestar Galactica. If you take the traitor element away there is no much left, just a co-op game that wasn't designed for full co-op or the dull race I described previously. It's the traitor mechanic that makes Battlestar Galactica work and when it is removed the game should end. Instead I get a feeling that after an great hour and a half movie, just before the credits come rolling, there's another hour and a half "what happened then" segment. To find out the end result I have to sit that segment trough, but no twists or new characters are introduced. Many eurogames are just that, hour and a half of repeating one of few actions in order to score the most. The difference is that eurogames are not even trying to tell a story. The plot is secondary, I can concentrate only on optimizing my actions, but if the there is a story involved I want it to go on all the way until the end. This didn't happen for me in Battlestar Galactica and that's why I have rated it mediocre. The great first half is negated by dull second half. Let me now address some individual comments. mrbistro wrote: I don't get the "plagued with downtime" bit. BSG turns are very short, and half of a player's turn involve everyone else helping out. To me it seems like the least amount of downtime possible. As I stated, for the first part of the game downtime isn't an issue. The turns may take exactly the same amount of time in the second half, but I only became aware of downtime during then. Major part of the problem is that after the cylons are discovered the story doesn't carry the game for me. Also in the second half I know if you are helping or hindering me, I don't need to pay that much attention to your doings anymore. slacks wrote: I think that it is funny that the OP feels obligated to harp on a game he obviously enjoyed (well at least mostly enjoyed). I hope it is clear by now that I did enjoy the first part of the game, if the second part was quicker then the average of these parts would be higher. In current form the long second half brings down the average for the whole game. slacks wrote: I get what the OP was saying, but I have to wonder if anyone can name a good game that doesn't suffer from a bad/mediocre play group or benefit from a good one! I'm happy to play a game I love with anyone competent and skillful, I don't have to like the player otherwise. In the games I usually play the game stays on the board, player actions in the game do the talking. In Battlestar Galactica at least half of the game is off-board trash talking and breezing the wind. Of course we speak during every game we play, but talking isn't part of those games. Players in Battlestar Galactica don't need to be masterful gamers, but they need to be able to be part of the game off-board. These two abilities differ and in Battlestar Galactica it's way more important to play with fun people instead of skillful people. Simon Mueller wrote: Why do you need "standards" to rate games? Does some obsessive-compulsive disorder force you to rate games according to self-imposed strident criteria. I'd say rate games compliant with how you like/enjoy them and be done with it. (I even use only a 5 point scale, because I wouldn't know how to differentiate my ratings more than Very good/Good/Average/Bad/Very bad.) By standards I don't mean I have written cross reference look-up tables to determine if I like a game or not. Having played diferent games, I have found similarities in games I have enjoyed the best. And vice versa commonalities in games I didn't like. Battlestar Galactica has several characteristics I usually hate, but the first half of the game was so fun I had to overlook those. "Standards" maybe wasn't the optimal word to use here, but it was the first word I thought of.
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In my first reply I didn't revisit the game mechanics I had presented in the review, and which was commented on. Let me now come back to this issue.
None of the mechanics or rules in Battlestar Galactica are diffucult or hard to grasp. This is good because it gives room to the meat of the game, finding out the cylons. The prime mechanic, blind card play, is actually genious in this sense because it gives the cylons opportunity for sabotage and a tool for humans to determine who is cylon. Of course once the cylons are found only the numbers matter, not who played what colour. There are some hand management issues left, but these do not make the game anything special.
In the second half of the game crisis follow each other, this is known. Every turn players are asked to make a choice between different resources, be it cards, the resources on the dials, not advancing the ftl track and so on. We are managing resources, but there is no way to deduce what is expendable. It is subsequent random crisis that reveal did we make a correct choice earlier. Some might call this nerve wrecking tension, I call it pointless.
As I have already declared the fate of mankind alone is not enough to keep me interested for the second half of the game. The meat of the game, and what makes the first half great, is gone. Now all is left is reaching the conclusion, and I want to win or lose by my own decisions. Battlestar Galactica offers some tools to manage the randomness, but not enough to make calculated well thought out plans that will ensure the victory for either side.
I guess what it boils down to is that the second half of the game I feel I'm playing co-op resource management eurogame without the mechanics and characteristics found in eurogames. There is no way to calculate, reason, outwit or build an engine for victory. All is left is guessing and dice.
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Russell Newstrom
United States
California
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Okay, I think I get what you are saying.
However, the game is about skill, just not the skill you would normally find in a eurogame... The skill in question here is primarilly the ability to bluff/convince the other players. This is a different skill from optimizing your actions/resource management, which is still present but fairly trivial outside of risk management.
I agree that the game suffers a lot once the Cylons are revealed. The optimization is all there is left and it is very straightforward when you remove the risk of helping a Cylon.
I wonder if it would be better if the number of Cylons were somewhat randomized. This would help keep the paranoia throughout the game since you wouldn't know for sure that all the Cylons had been caught.
Or make it worthwhile to stay hidden longer. Or make the optimization more satisfying.
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Xander Fulton
United States Portland Oregon
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MrSkeletor wrote: mrbistro wrote: I don't get the "plagued with downtime" bit. Apparently downtime now means "I have to talk with other players." Well, for a eurogamer, that IS 'downtime'. Time spent interacting with people instead of deriving calculations used to optimize resource production or achieve peak scoring potential averaged out over multiple rounds while amortizing cost of the play... I mean, seriously, talking with people compared to THAT?? Downtime, man, downtime!  The Barefoot Killer wrote: I think you give the game design too little credit. Do you think people are having fun in spite of the game they're playing or because of the game they're playing? The people I've introduced it to think it's a great game because of how the mechanics facilitate our fun experiences.
I think that's the point you have to come back to. If the same group, just sitting around and staring at each other would not be having as much fun as sitting around playing this game...then, surely, the game is good. Maybe the mechanic isn't something you are familiar with (the 'game' is the player interaction vs optimized point scoring - think something like 'Werewolf'), but that doesn't mean that the designer didn't intend exactly the behavior you experienced and found 'fun'. And if the designer made the game to produce the behavior that you found happening, and you did find it fun...well...doesn't that mean the game is working?
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Xander Fulton
United States Portland Oregon
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mikko_r wrote: By these two scenarios I hope to prove that the hidden cylons are the heart of Battlestar Galactica. If you take the traitor element away there is no much left, just a co-op game that wasn't designed for full co-op or the dull race I described previously.
It's the traitor mechanic that makes Battlestar Galactica work and when it is removed the game should end. Instead I get a feeling that after an great hour and a half movie, just before the credits come rolling, there's another hour and a half "what happened then" segment. To find out the end result I have to sit that segment trough, but no twists or new characters are introduced.
BTW, I do see this point, but... ...don't you think, maybe, part of this problem is that the Cylons you played with revealed too early? Read some of the session reports, here. Some games end with a pair of Cylons in which one of them never 'reveals' at all. In some games, the Cylon does such a good job ruining the Colonials' chances, that when they finally DO the massive-bad-thing-happens reveal, that event alone is enough to instantly end the game for the Colonials. If you are playing for an hour before the Cylon reveals...then it takes 2 more hours to finish play...I'd say your Cylon revealed way, way, WAYYYY too early.
Last edited on 2009-01-03 13:38:55 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Tom Hancock
United States Charleston West Virginia
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Mikko, saying the game isn't very good without the Cylons and traitor mechanic is like saying Crokinole wouldn't be very good without all the flicking or that Power Grid wouldn't be very good without auctions and with set resource costs. No shit! The Cylon/traitor thing is probably the best part of the game! Take the bacon off of a BLT sandwich and how tasty is it?
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XanderF wrote: If you are playing for an hour before the Cylon reveals...then it takes 2 more hours to finish play...I'd say your Cylon revealed way, way, WAYYYY too early. Is it best for the cylons to do maximum damage or be the final straw that breaks the camel's back? Surely the latter makes for a better story and more fun experience. But for the cylons to win they need to do X amount of damage, mechanics wise (not taking Symphatizer Card into account here) it doesn't matter if this damage is done at the beginning, middle or end. The opportunity to do the most harm may present itself halfway, not taking it is poor playing if you are playing to win. XanderF wrote: If the same group, just sitting around and staring at each other would not be having as much fun as sitting around playing this game...then, surely, the game is good. Again we come back to the issue when is it the best time for cylons to reveal themselves. To be most effective it may be anytime during the game, to have more fun the later the better. Now if the game tells me not to make my optimal move because the game suffers it is not a good game. It still very well may be fun activity, but it is not a good game. I want to win because I made the right move at the right time. I did massive damage that left humans in a situation where there is no coming back, now I just wait for the final straw. This is a question of mindset. If the only object of the game is to have the most fun then the game shouldn't have winners or losers. If however you are playing to win the game should allow you to do your best and still be fun. Here is where Battlestar Galactica failed for me.
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Tom Vasel
Korea Uijongbu Unspecified
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Mikko, I think you're missing the point a few people are making. What some are saying (and I agree), is that it is NOT optimal for the Cylon to always reveal themselves early. In fact, in my experience, it's best for one Cylon to reveal themselves, and the other to hide.
- Both Cylons revealing themselves allows the other players to achieve perfect unity. - A Cylon can be extremely effective causing havok while hidden - many times more so than while open.
As a human, I welcome both Cylons to reveal themselves early in our games. It gives us a better chance.
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Xander Fulton
United States Portland Oregon
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TomVasel wrote: Mikko, I think you're missing the point a few people are making. What some are saying (and I agree), is that it is NOT optimal for the Cylon to always reveal themselves early. In fact, in my experience, it's best for one Cylon to reveal themselves, and the other to hide.
- Both Cylons revealing themselves allows the other players to achieve perfect unity. - A Cylon can be extremely effective causing havok while hidden - many times more so than while open.
As a human, I welcome both Cylons to reveal themselves early in our games. It gives us a better chance. Exactly. If the Cylon reveal leaves 2 hours of game left to play, with only one hour down, then they did NOT reveal themselves 'at the most optimal time'. Maybe the most optimal to the point in the game, but if they'd waited longer - ruining more skill checks and possibly getting other innocent players thrown in the brig via innuendo and 'setting them up' - then a better opportunity would reveal itself later. If they revealed themselves, and that doesn't get darn close to ending the game right then and there...then they did it wrong. A good check to see if you should reveal or not is to ask yourself "If I do this, right now, will it basically end the game for the Colonials?" If the answer is 'no', and you still have fair cover, then you really need to keep playing hidden as your BEST opportunity for damage hasn't come yet.
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Please note that sometimes the cylon player needs to reveal himself prematurely in order to get anything done. Sitting in the brig making pleas to deaf ears is worthwhile for only so long.
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Tom Hancock
United States Charleston West Virginia
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mikko_r wrote: Please note that sometimes the cylon player needs to reveal himself prematurely in order to get anything done. Sitting in the brig making pleas to deaf ears is worthwhile for only so long.
Thats the exception, not the rule.
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Craig Rose
United States Walnut Creek California
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hancock.tom wrote: mikko_r wrote: Please note that sometimes the cylon player needs to reveal himself prematurely in order to get anything done. Sitting in the brig making pleas to deaf ears is worthwhile for only so long.
Thats the exception, not the rule. I have to agree. When I am introducing this game to new players I encourage them to be patient about revealing themselves if they are in fact a cylon who has been thrown in the brig. There is an excellent cylon strategy at FFG's website. I usually ask new players to read it over while I'm setting up the board. In our games, the cylon player(s) was able to refrain from revealing until the final rounds, often with fewer than 30 minutes remaining.
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