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Corin Friesen
United States Orange County California
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I asked Uwe Rosenberg himself about the "problem" people have with Le Havre, namely that loans are not hard enough on the players who take them, so feeding your workers at the end of the round is not a major concern as with Agricola. Here is what I said: Ambrose wrote: Hello Uwe,
A lot of people here on this website have complained that Le Havre doesn't press you hard enough to feed your workers at the end of the round. They say that you should get a lot of loans and then pay them off when you get the francs via shipping line or bridge over seine, etc...
What do you think about this? Is it a problem or a good strategy? It is always nice to get the designer's opinion.
Thanks,
Ambrose
P.S. I love Le Havre! Here is Uwe's response: BohnanZar wrote: It should be a good strategy for one (or maybe two) players. when three player play with loans, the fourth wins. i play with loans, when i have something better to do. perhaps getting lots of wood or maybe iron. ask me. i want to answer you everything about the game. best wishes, uwe I took this to mean that playing an all-out complete "starvation" strategy is not a completely viable option, but taking just a few loans during the game is a good idea. In my last 3 player game (which was yesterday), one person played a big loan strategy. I did the opposite by buying a wooden ship early (2nd or 3rd round) via Joinery so I didn't have to worry about food and loans, plus the wharfs were buried in the building proposals. I did take 2 loans at different times during the game when there were juicy actions to take. I won the game 262, loan guy got 183, 3rd place got 145. Thoughts? Note what Uwe said in his mail: ask him your questions about this, and he will answer. He also said in another conversation that buying the Marketplace on the first turn is not the sure win action, but is definitely good. Wooden Ships may be bought early, and you can win.
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Jimmer Sivertsen
United States Seattle Washington
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The first game I played, loans were incorrectly demonstrated. The incorrect rules: 1. You can take out loans if you 'need' the money for something. It made the loan forgiveness building attractive. 2. You paid a franc for each loan.
The second game was started with the same rules, and someone took out....8 loans or so in the beginning, and bought a bunch of buildings. Halfway through the game, the real rules are discovered, and we reset the whole game. (As an interesting note, he was struggling with the huge debt, because of the interest penalty. I'm curious if this makes for a good variant in other games.)
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A M
United States Arlington Virginia
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I think the big problem here is the fact that once you have one loan, there is only a marginal cost to get additional loans; the interest doesn't go up at all. The opportunity cost between no loans and one is far bigger than one loan and two, or twenty. That is a strange mechanic, as it is completely the opposite of normal lending patterns, when interest rates go up linearly with loan amount, and borrowing too much often increases that interest rate as well.
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Timothy Hunt
United States St Louis Missouri
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I will say that in a recent 3 player game, two of us took out loans, and we felt like it was a bad mistake. The non-loan person beat us handily. It's harder on the players than one might think.
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Dave Eisen
United States Palo Alto (bay area) California
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I don't interpret it as "loans are fine as long as you don't have too many". I interpret it as "loans are often a good approach. But if 3 players are going a hard loan approach, they will leave too much food lying around for player 4 who will find directly feeding his people easy without taking loans. In this case, the cost of loans is going to be a problem." Or something like that.
Last edited on 2009-01-29 16:18:57 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Brian Ridge
United States Everett Washington
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HAs there been any discussion about different ways to deal with loans, then? For example, what about paying 1 Franc for 1 loan, 2 Francs for 2 loans, etc.
One of the thnigs I like about Agricola is that getting a single BEggar card is a huge setback... it really pushes players towards making sure they can feed their family. InStone Age, OTOH, the penalty is so weak that a starvation strategy is viable.
Brian
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Corin Friesen
United States Orange County California
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dkeisen wrote: I don't interpret it as "loans are fine as long as you don't have too many". I interpret it as "loans are often a good approach. But if 3 players are going a hard loan approach, they will leave too much food lying around for player 4 who will find directly feeding his people easy without taking loans. In this case, the cost of loans is going to be a problem." Or something like that.
Good interpretation. I normally take out 1 loan at a time then quickly pay it off for a round when there is a big stack of iron or something good like that I'd rather take or do instead of getting food.
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Corin Friesen
United States Orange County California
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bwridge wrote: HAs there been any discussion about different ways to deal with loans, then? For example, what about paying 1 Franc for 1 loan, 2 Francs for 2 loans, etc.
One of the thnigs I like about Agricola is that getting a single BEggar card is a huge setback... it really pushes players towards making sure they can feed their family. InStone Age, OTOH, the penalty is so weak that a starvation strategy is viable.
Brian I've thought of dealing with it that way, but it's turning out that loans are not a "problem" in the game! Stone Age has a starvation strategy. I'm fine with that, because I love more strategies in a game.
Last edited on 2009-01-30 10:04:43 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Brian Ridge
United States Everett Washington
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Ambrose wrote: Stone Age has a starvation strategy. I'm fine with that, because I love more strategies in a game.  SUre, it works from a pure gameplay perspective, but it shatters the theme. I haven't played Le Havre enough to have a conclusion one way or another about the issue of loans, but I would like them to operate in muc hthe same way as Agricola's Beggar cards. THey should be a last ditch option taken under the worst sorts of circumstances and they should have real consequences. Brian
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Dave Eisen
United States Palo Alto (bay area) California
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I suppose. I would call this a fundamental break with Agricola and that is good: we don't need two different Agricolas, only one set in France. It feels to me that Agricola is more of a game of building up for big moves --- getting an additional family member, baking your bread for 15 food, etc. --- whereas Le Havre is a game more of building small incremental gains. Managing food shortage by having it be a drain on your position rather than a game-losing error seems more in the spirit of the rest of Le Havre.
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Corin Friesen
United States Orange County California
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dkeisen wrote: I suppose. I would call this a fundamental break with Agricola and that is good: we don't need two different Agricolas, only one set in France. It feels to me that Agricola is more of a game of building up for big moves --- getting an additional family member, baking your bread for 15 food, etc. --- whereas Le Havre is a game more of building small incremental gains. Managing food shortage by having it be a drain on your position rather than a game-losing error seems more in the spirit of the rest of Le Havre. Exactly. It works for me.
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Corin Friesen
United States Orange County California
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bwridge wrote: SUre, it works from a pure gameplay perspective, but it shatters the theme. Theme, theme,....
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Brian Bankler
United States San Antonio Texas
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Le Havre
» Forums » General
Re: The Designer's Take on Loans
Every loan you take costs you 25% interest (You get 4, you pay 5) assuming you pay it back. If you don't, it costs you 75%. The "Interest" tile is an additional surcharge. Now that should be based on number of loans, but given the units in the game (and general gameplay) it doesn't ... unless you take another loan to cover it, in which case you've effectively gotten hit up another 25%. Now, the funny thing is that taking a new loan is often a pretty good deal, it helps your cash flow. But businesses are like that, they often take out loans when not strictly necessary (or when the could structure their businesses to avoid it) for cash flow. Regarding theme, the real question is -- how long is a round? Years? Given you start with wooden ships and how the buildings pop up, that seems reasonable but it may be wrong. If each round is several years, then the thematic arguement that interest should be charged on each loan seems reasonable. Also, what were interest charges at the time? We're used to 5-10% per annum for stable businesses. If the game only covered 5 years of the "Modern world" then 25% interest would be low, but the ineterest payments (and occassional extra loans) would bump that up. But I imagine that interest rates were much higher back then. Contrary to that, the bank in this game is reasonably confident that nobody will go bankrupt, so these loans are surely AAA rated bonds... (given that AAA bonds are going to bankrupt cities and states, these are even better. Even losing scores in Le Havre are 100+, not bad with starting with 5 florins...) So I guess in terms of theme, per loan interest seems reasonable, but the "one time 25% + some floating interest that doesn't vary as much as it should" isn't that bothersome.
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James Klemm
United States Walnut Creek California
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Lots of people seem to be advocating that playing the Le Havre loan strategy and the Stone Age starvation strategy are not playing the game the "right" way. If these ideas are within the rules and effective, you have to either take the strategy yourself or think of an effective counter.
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Brian Bankler
United States San Antonio Texas
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A simpler answer is the old chestnut -- "When you owe the bank $1,000 that's your problem. When you owe them $100,000,000, that's their problem." As credit card companies show, people are often delighted to let borrowers (that they expect or can force to pay back) have more money cheaply. It's when they worry about getting it back that the money dries up.
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Corin Friesen
United States Orange County California
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MisterBond wrote: Lots of people seem to be advocating that playing the Le Havre loan strategy and the Stone Age starvation strategy are not playing the game the "right" way. If these ideas are within the rules and effective, you have to either take the strategy yourself or think of an effective counter. I'm not one of those people. I'm saying that pure loan strategy is not a winner.
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Corin Friesen
United States Orange County California
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Bankler wrote: Now, the funny thing is that taking a new loan is often a pretty good deal, it helps your cash flow. But businesses are like that, they often take out loans when not strictly necessary (or when the could structure their businesses to avoid it) for cash flow. You cannot take a loan out whenever you want to. Only if you can't feed your people or can't pay interest, that's it. So it never really helps your cash flow (unless you mean paying entry fee, in which case it may).
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Grzegorz Kobiela
Germany Hanover Lower Saxony
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If I time interest payment and no money in pocket right, I'll have all of a sudden 3 Francs where I had 0. So, it really helps cash flow as 3 Francs is a lot of money (you can pay most of the buildings with 3 Francs about twice). So, loans help me to nearly always have enough money to enter buildings AND to not worry about food. The only thing I need to balance out is not to take too many loans and to pay them all back by the end of the game.
The only real thing that's bad about loans is you'll BUY buildings fairly seldom (as you can't accumulate money - it'll be gone at the end of the round) - or you need to get food (which is what you tried to avoid).
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Melissa - Back home in Sunny Melbourne
Australia Melbourne Victoria
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I experimented with a BIG loan strategy last night in a 3 player game and lost fairly horribly. It doesn't mean I won't try again, though
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Brian Bankler
United States San Antonio Texas
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Ambrose wrote: You cannot take a loan out whenever you want to. Only if you can't feed your people or can't pay interest, that's it. So it never really helps your cash flow (unless you mean paying entry fee, in which case it may).
Nowhere did I say you could take out a loan whenever, and I've been playing correctly. But timing running out of money to get a 3 Florin infusion to pay entry fees is a big deal if it saves you an action. One action is worth a lot more than 1 florin.
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Corin Friesen
United States Orange County California
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Bankler wrote: Ambrose wrote: You cannot take a loan out whenever you want to. Only if you can't feed your people or can't pay interest, that's it. So it never really helps your cash flow (unless you mean paying entry fee, in which case it may).
Nowhere did I say you could take out a loan whenever, and I've been playing correctly. But timing running out of money to get a 3 Florin infusion to pay entry fees is a big deal if it saves you an action. One action is worth a lot more than 1 florin. OK. Yes, definitely. Good point, and I like the "florin".  I've got to play Princes of Florence again....
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Joe Huber
Westborough Massachusetts
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FWIW, I've been playing around with taking large numbers of loans; I've found that up to 10 is reasonable, usually, while more has not been. I've won the game with 2 loans not repaid - and come close to winning with 7 not repaid (out of 17 total), but I definitely prefer to keep to single digits.
But I definitely think it's a self-balancing feature - in a three player game, if two players are focused on acquiring materials rather than food, the other player should be able to feed his people very action-efficiently.
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Chris Boote
United Kingdom Virginia Water Surrey
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If you're playing with enough players that the Court is available, then loans can be a big money spinner Say you take 6 loans, spaced out over the first six or so turns Then you'll get 24 gold, and have to pay 6-8 in interest before the court pops up Then use the court three times So 24 in, 8 out +16 for the cost of three actions Not game winning, but quite viable - AND you didn't 'waste' actions chasing food Edited 'cos I carnt spel
Last edited on 2009-02-03 19:24:24 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
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Izack Chee
Singapore Singapore Singapore
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i won using a loan strategy once and the rest of my group caught on, so now about half of them use the loan strategy, which translates to me having to go another way
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Izack Chee
Singapore Singapore Singapore
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Chrisboote wrote: If you're playing with enough players that the Court is available, then loans can be a big money spinner
Say you take 6 loans, spaced out over the first six or so turns Then you'll get 24 gold, and have to pay 6-8 in interest before the court pops up Then use the court three times So 24 in, 8 out +16 for the cost of three actions Not game winning, but quite viable - AND you didn't 'waste' actions chasing food
Edited 'cos I carnt spel u can't pay off your last 2 loans using the court. If u have 2 loans left, the court only lets u return 1 loan and give u 2f
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