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Simon Lundström
Sweden
Örbyhus
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Ticket to Ride
» Forums » General
Re: How overrated can this game be? The epitome of Rail games? Gimme a break.
Somebody has to nominate mr Gray as Geek of the Week. He's most certainly made my week. Rarely I see such a display of a self-proclaimed intellectual completely missing the points of the criticisms agains his posts. All he does is constantly saying that large sales does not equal quality, something that no one has ever claimed in this thread, and that there are tastes that are better than others. To be honest, I don't completely disagree. A wine enthusiast probably has more enjoyment of a fine wine than I have. The problem starts when the wine enthusiast claims he enjoys his fine wine more than I enjoy a beer, and that I am essentially being silly for claiming that I believe beer is tasty. Because just as little as I understand his euphoria when sipping the wine, as little does he understand my sense of joy when I down the beer. I agree that there sometimes are objectively spoken longer-lasting values in certain forms of entertainment and/or art as compared to others. For example, 'Go' can most certainly be seen as having a more thought-through, longer-lasting value than LCR, and could therefore be described as "better" (depending on how you define the word) and likewise "Forrest Gump" can as certainly be seen as having more intricate thoughts and advanced sense of humour, and to touch more of what it means being a human being than, say, "Boa vs Python". As most people (correct me if I am wrong) associate the word "good" with some sort of perceived objective value, and a meaning like 'more long lasting', 'being of high quality even if you dig deep', therefore, claiming that LCR (or Boa vs Python) is a better game/film than Go (or Forrest Gump) is clearly more silly than claiming the opposite. However, this is mostly only valid in extreme comparisons, and must also be seen in the light of what one is trying to achieve with the form of entertainment. For a person wanting to laugh at the silliest monster-action film evern made, Boa vs Python is infinately better than Forrest Gump. And for persons wanting a family game, Ticket to Ride is infinately superior to 18xx. To fail to acknowledge that is a sign of thorough lack of ability to think logically. Yet the poster repeatedly insituates he is of higher intelligence because he is at college and associates with professors. And that is laughable and funny and therefore he made my week. Thanks.
Last edited on 2009-05-12 05:29:45 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Brian Modreski
United States
Thornton
Colorado
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DorianGray wrote: I'm pretty sure only well known Euro-games were even considered for that award.
Certainly not niche heavy games like 18xx or Indonesia. What!?! Wait, you mean the 'critics' might be using different criteria or standards than what matters to me!?! Or they might have different tastes!?! Or...*gasp*...not actually be an ultimate authority?!  Damn, I guess I'll have to think for myself after all. Some notes: 1) The title of 'Critic' does not confer ability. It is, hopefully, granted to those with ability, but not necessarily. 2) Interpreting the law is largely objective. Interpreting movies, wine, art or games is largely subjective. 3) A good critic/expert will know that telling you what THE BEST is will likely be irrelevant to you. They will, however, be able to give what they think THE BEST is given a set of criteria. The movie will be able to tell you that "The Enduring Subtle Artsiness of Pretensious Land" is a superb film for displaying artistic merit and innovative filmography. If they recommend in response to "What's the best adrenalin packed, fast paced action movie?" they probably shouldn't be a critic. 4) When making a comparison, its usually best to compare things that actually have something in common. Consulting a wedding planner as opposed to a farmer makes sense. Farmer and "person with impeccable taste" have nothing in common, and may well overlap. 5) As far as games go, the BGG users who have played thousands of games and logged hundreds of plays ARE the experts and the connoisseurs. If you want an opinion on say, which variant of 18xx is best, you'll go to someone who's an 18xx expert - not the person who has played a thousand games that aren't 18xx.
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J W
United States
Washington
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Blott wrote: I do believe after reading the further discussion and responses from DorianGray that he is not a troll...he's a Sheldon: But I like Sheldon... Our little troll friend is not worthy of the title of being a Sheldon.
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ackmondual
United States
Virginia
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E Decker wrote: I come here for the comedy.  Meh. For me, it's moreso entertainment. Discusssions about most forms of boardgaming, even stuff like this is interesting. When I play games, my extra entertainment also comes from specific people who tend to argue in a heated ways, but still managed to keep it civil at least.
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Philip Dumala
United States
Yarmouth
Maine
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WAIT! I have this whole thing figured out! It is all one big misunderstanding. TtR is the epitome of GATE-WAY GAMES! Dorian you were just confused. A gate-way game is a game that is easy for non-gamers to learn and it gets them interested in playing heavier games later on. Problem solved. I win. Good day.
Last edited on 2009-05-12 12:50:59 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Jeff Inks
United States
Linden
North Carolina
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just to try to keep this rolling...
how many games have over 11000 ratings and has a rating over 7?
popular does not mean good, does mean popular.
Green Day's fans got mad at them when they went 'mainstream'. Probably still bought the CDs and enjoyed it.
Trying to reach a broad market isn't selling out, it is introducing more people to an enjoyable past-time.
Asimov is brilliant and he wrote fiction, non-fiction and text books. Doesn't mean he sold out when he wrote the 'Robot' serires, just broadening his horizons.
Sheldon can be annoying, but lovable, great show, the wife even 'geeks it up' with me and watches it.
don't mistreat people who haven't mistreated you, one day one of those 'morons' may save your life on the operating table.
I'm surprised that TtR is not under the scrutiny of the Reverend Al Gore and his Global Police for simulated environmental damage and global whoring.
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Dave Nellis
United States
Denver
Colorado
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How did this get to 7 pages with only 11 thumbs?
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ackmondual
United States
Virginia
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Shatner wrote: How did this get to 7 pages with only 11 thumbs? Well... evidently, the number of posts to a thread and its number of thumbs are NOT synonymous in any way
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Dorian Key
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
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The Lone Gamer wrote: You're a vengeful piss-poor excuse for a human being. If you actually read the post, I said those were my initial thoughts on the game and I needed MORE plays to get a better opinion. I started that thread for people to help me CLARIFY my concerns with the game. Go find some decency.
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Dave Nellis
United States
Denver
Colorado
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The Lone Gamer wrote: Since I know nothing about the game, I can't vouch for the content of the review, but he doesn't call into question the taste of this entire website, or make ludicrous statements about the designer. He deserves a bit of credit for that....
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Tim Stellmach
United States
Arlington
Massachusetts
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DorianGray wrote: The Lone Gamer wrote: You're a vengeful piss-poor excuse for a human being. Yeah, you big bully! What's the idea, pickin' on that little bully??
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R K
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
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DorianGray wrote: The Lone Gamer wrote: You're a vengeful piss-poor excuse for a human being. If you actually read the post, I said those were my initial thoughts on the game and I needed MORE plays to get a better opinion. I started that thread for people to help me CLARIFY my concerns with the game. Go find some decency. My question is who the heck ever said it was the epitome of rail games? It's mentioned on this forum 10 times a day as a gateway game to get people who normally don't play games into gaming. I think it does that quite well. The theme does help.
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lorddillon
United States
Ithaca
New York
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timstellmach wrote: DorianGray wrote: The Lone Gamer wrote: You're a vengeful piss-poor excuse for a human being. Yeah, you big bully! What's the idea, pickin' on that little bully?? Yeah - now we have to go get Great-Big-Bully to teach you a lesson, and boy is he gonna be pissed!
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Tim Stellmach
United States
Arlington
Massachusetts
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To be clear: The Lone Gamer hit below the belt, but DorianGray, you ceded the moral high ground with respect to personal attacks way back in your opening post: DorianGray wrote: Alan Moon, you're a sell-out to money. The people wanted a dumb fast simple game and you gave it to them. Your earlier designs such as Santa Fe Rails and Union Pacific had so much potential and complexity but you gave it up. And what did this Moon guy do to deserve it? He brought joy to a bunch of people who are not you, that's what he did. Is this really something you're proud of? Can it possibly be a mystery to you what you did to elicit this behavior? I'm ready to believe you're not trolling now, because a troll doesn't take hits. He just pulls a fade. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You are, reportedly, a young guy, so you have a lot of lessons still ahead. Seriously, this is your opportunity to stand up.
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Matthew M Monin
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
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Calling someone a troll, even if justified, never helps and often can exacerbate a situation. Users are expected to express themselves in a courteous and respectful way. BGG policy is to issue a warning on a first offense and to follow future offenses with temporary posting suspensions of increasing length. Rather than calling another user a troll, please consider flagging any offending posts as violations by using the Red X icon in the username block. This serves two functions - first, if enough users flag a post then it will be collapsed from general view. Second, flagging posts helps bring them to the attention of the forum moderators.
Thanks.
-MMM
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Dorian Key
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
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Aren't gate-way games by their own very nature prohibited from being in-depth heavy satisfying games? I admit, heavy games are an acquired taste, while anyone - literally anyone, some random guy off the street - could play Apples to Apples.
Checkers to Chess.
Anyway I'm going to concede that TtR may be one of the best gate-way games - certainly a genre I would try to move away from if you're looking for the full gaming experience.
I wonder if Alan Moon enjoys playing Santa Fe Rails over Ticket to Ride.
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Richard Dowdy
United States
Texas
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DorianGray wrote: Aren't gate-way games by their own very nature prohibited from being in-depth heavy satisfying games? In-depth: No. In fact I would say that one of the qualities of a well-designed game is the ability to offer rich game play from a simple set of rules. Heavy: Okay, gateway games aren't heavy. I'll give you this one. Satisfying: In case you hadn't noticed, there are lots of people who find gateway games quite satisfying. DorianGray wrote: I admit, heavy games are an acquired taste, while anyone - literally anyone, some random guy off the street - could play Apples to Apples. It sounds like your fixation for heavy games has less to do with "looking for the full gaming experience" than with proving that your superior intellect can grasp the things that the unwashed masses with their pathetic little brains cannot. Personally, I'd rather just play games because they're fun than out of some insecurity about my intelligence.
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DL Crizzle
United States
Aurora
Colorado
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Trekkies bash new film as fun, watchable: http://www.theonion.com/content/video/trekkies_bash_new_star...Is almost the same as "boardgamegeek bashes TTR as fun, playable" If you hop on xbox live, and play against some of the folks on ticket to ride in a ranked match, you can find out how ugly a ticket to ride game can get. I'm sorry man, but for what this game has done, it's in (edit: almost) a class by itself, and every boardgame manufacturer out there owes a debt for what games like this, catan, and carcasonne are doing... bringing more people past their local wal-mart.
Last edited on 2009-05-13 14:07:37 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
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R K
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
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DorianGray wrote: Aren't gate-way games by their own very nature prohibited from being in-depth heavy satisfying games? I admit, heavy games are an acquired taste, while anyone - literally anyone, some random guy off the street - could play Apples to Apples.
Checkers to Chess.
Anyway I'm going to concede that TtR may be one of the best gate-way games - certainly a genre I would try to move away from if you're looking for the full gaming experience.
I wonder if Alan Moon enjoys playing Santa Fe Rails over Ticket to Ride. Who sets the definition of "satisfying"? Playing some long assed wargame that spans so many days it NEVER gets finished is the epitome of unsatisfying gaming for me. Sitting down for a game that 1 or 2 players hate even though it's "heavy" is as satisfying as wiping one's ass with sandpaper. You throw around these terms as absolutes or as if they are some universal definition. I'm fine playing heavy games, but that is far from a pre-requisite for a "satisfying" gaming experience. It is NOT the defining factor for me or many other2 I would venture to guess. edit: spelling
Last edited on 2009-05-13 15:21:42 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
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Brian Modreski
United States
Thornton
Colorado
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Quote: Aren't gate-way games by their own very nature prohibited from being in-depth heavy satisfying games? I would say a gateway game is one that: * Grabs attention and interest very quickly when one begins to play. * Is easy to explain. * Can be enjoyably played even if you don't know how to win. This does not preclude it from being "in-depth" or "heavy" (whatever those mean) though many may not be. Also note that there "in-depth" and "heavy" are extremely subjective, and may not even be considered good traits, and "satisfying" doesn't have anything to do with being "in-depth" or "heavy" unless its on the basis of personal taste. Also, some measures for consideration: Number of possible choices per turn: Tic-Tac-Toe: Averages about 5 Chess: Averages about 30 Ticket to Ride: Averages about 30 Theoretical number of board states (not all of these are actually possible to achieve, but it presents an upper bound for comparison): Tic-Tac-Toe: 19683 Chess: Roughly 1 x 10^50 Ticket to Ride: Roughly 1 x 10^63 (For a 2 player game; this will increase drastically as more players are added)
Last edited on 2009-05-14 10:02:02 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
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Dave Gutierrez
United States
Palatine
Illinois
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DorianGray wrote:
Anyway I'm going to concede that TtR may be one of the best gate-way games - certainly a genre I would try to move away from if you're looking for the full gaming experience.
Uh...isn't that the whole point of a gateway game? To help ease the way into the "full gaming experience?"
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I haven't bought the game yet, but I have played the online game. Hopefully, pretty soon I will buy the board game. The game is just fun! I don't care if a game is based on luck as long as it's fun. I don't think this game is based on luck though because you can put your railroad anywhere when you have all the color cars.
I'm interested in Ticket to Ride because it's a train game, and you get to build routes from one part of the country to another. There is some Power Plant game, and that game doesn't interest me at all because it's about power plants. I don't care for war games just because I don't care about fighting in a board game.
So, doom to me for liking Dizzy, Dizzy Dinosaur, Haunted Ruins, Monopoly, Sorry!, Ticket to Ride, Rush Hour -Everyday Games, Guess Who?, Clue - a little bit, Peanut Butter & Jelly, Scrabble, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, and Uno.
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Jack
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
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DorianGray wrote: I wonder if Alan Moon enjoys playing Santa Fe Rails over Ticket to Ride. Alan Moon's favorite game is Twilight Struggle.How could he possibly have designed a light gateway game!? OMG yor hed a-splode!
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Danger Mike
United States
Fenton
Missouri
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DorianGray wrote: You're a vengeful piss-poor excuse for a human being. People calling you a jerk doesn't bother you, but quoting you brings out the venom? Touchy. DorianGray wrote: If you actually read the post, I said those were my initial thoughts on the game and I needed MORE plays to get a better opinion. I started that thread for people to help me CLARIFY my concerns with the game. Actually, you said you regretted buying it and asked what game you should have gotten instead. You made such a big deal about preferring deep, chess-like games, but dismissed this game after one play. Did you read the design notes, in which Mr. Sivel discusses that he spent fifteen years playtesting and balancing the game?
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Posted Tue May 12, 2009 11:24 am
