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Giles Pritchard
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G'Day everybody, this post is to announce that Boardgames Australia, an organisation set up to run a reputable Australian game award, and to promote the game and design industry in Australia, are running a Protospiel Event in Sydney, on the 16th of May.

Richard Vickery, the chair of BGA has done a great job of putting this together, and we really hope this event (as well as others in Melbourne and elsewhere) will prove to be of use to budding game designers in our great land ;)

You can find out more at the BGA website: http://www.boardgamesaustralia.org.au/

Cheers,

Giles.

Steve McIlhatton
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caradoc wrote:
...an organisation set up to run a reputable Australian game award


was there a previous unreputable Australian game award? :D
Giles Pritchard
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:D

No - that probably sounds bad. There is another award, it is not disreputable though! When we set up the group the idea was to try and be relevant and repudable - I guess that's why I posted it :)

Will you be going along Steve?

Cheers,

Giles.
Last edited on 2009-04-22 06:37:18 CST (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Matthew Blain
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There's one in Melbourne?
Giles Pritchard
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Matt B wrote:
There's one in Melbourne?


We hope to organise one for later in the year Matthew! Meanwhile - if you have any ideas, opinions or suggestions about what you would like to see, post here, geekmail me, or post over in the forums at www.boardgamesaustralia.org.au

Cheers,

Giles.
Matthew Blain
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Thanks Giles,

I videotape weddings for a living and am unable to make the Sydney date unfortunately.

Having arrived at the "satisfied" stage of my own game (the last year or so has been about tweeks), I guess I feel the next step is the "final critique". This I see as a group of perhaps half-a-dozen top play-testers (I'm not a gamer myself) giving a final prototype a sound thrashing. And being blunt about their assessment, perhaps even offer a ball-park ranking.

Though you've most likely considered this, would a peer-reviewed list be of interest to publishers? "This is a top 100 game / top 500 / probably in the 1000 to 2000 range / whatever".

Do you expect your event to offer such a "service", or do you see the meeting of designers as part of the tweeking stage; a bit of networking?

Good luck with the event.

Regards, Matt B
BTW, how many game-prototypes/designers are you expecting in Sydney? 20 / 50 / 100? More? No doubt a crowd of obsessive game-designers in the same room would be a sight to see! :)
Giles Pritchard
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Matt B wrote:
Thanks Giles,

I videotape weddings for a living and am unable to make the Sydney date unfortunately.

Having arrived at the "satisfied" stage of my own game (the last year or so has been about tweeks), I guess I feel the next step is the "final critique". This I see as a group of perhaps half-a-dozen top play-testers (I'm not a gamer myself) giving a final prototype a sound thrashing. And being blunt about their assessment, perhaps even offer a ball-park ranking.

Though you've most likely considered this, would a peer-reviewed list be of interest to publishers? "This is a top 100 game / top 500 / probably in the 1000 to 2000 range / whatever".

Do you expect your event to offer such a "service", or do you see the meeting of designers as part of the tweeking stage; a bit of networking?

Good luck with the event.

Regards, Matt B
BTW, how many game-prototypes/designers are you expecting in Sydney? 20 / 50 / 100? More? No doubt a crowd of obsessive game-designers in the same room would be a sight to see! :)


With this sort of event the main idea is to provide feedback to the designer on what the playtesters felt about the game. This event offers the opportunity to playtest with 'blind' groups, who will be honest and constructive in offering their opinions of the games they playtest.

It also offers the opportunity for designers to meet other designers, network, talk about the design process, and generally offer each other the wisdom of each others' experiences. For me this is the most valuable part of the event. Boardgames Australia are really trying to build a network and community of Australian based game designers - it's one of the key reasons the organisation exists.

As for submitting to publishers... we hope that future events will provide the opportunity to have some face-to-face time with publishers, at the 2008 Expo we offered a designer event where we had speakers like Mike Hirtle of Hasbro, and Zev of Z-Man Games, as well as representatives talking about legal issues and IP, productions costs, self publishing and so forth. So we really are trying to include these services, but these extra things will most likely be attached to events connected to conventions like the Australian Games Expo.

There are very few publishers who will accept unsolicited submissions, and most of those like to meet the designer and hear a pitch when they do. So for this reason I am not sure a ranking comparison would be terribly useful to the designer.

Again - the key features (from my point of view) are the opportunities to blind play test and to meet other designers, network and share thoughts/processes etc.

Numbers are hard to gather - I would hope we have a good showing! At the event at the 2008 Expo (our first designer orientated event) we had some 50-60 people attend, so fingers crossed that we get more as we go along.

I hope that helps! We will be trying to organise a Melbourne based event for sometimes later in the year hopefully!

Cheers,

Giles.
Matthew Blain
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That all sounds great, Giles!
I'll keep an eye out for the Melbourne date.

Again, good luck in Sydney.
Regards, Matt B
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Nice work, Giles & Co! It's good to see local design encouraged.
boardgamesaustralia.org.au wrote:
Bring paper and pen to write notes about the feedback you get.

Just a thought... is it also worth having some sort of generic feedback form for the game players to fill out? Nothing complex, check-boxes and a comments field etc.
Giles Pritchard
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mr_lunch wrote:

Just a thought... is it also worth having some sort of generic feedback form for the game players to fill out? Nothing complex, check-boxes and a comments field etc.


Great idea Ben!!

Richard is the one who deserves the thanks! He's done the hard work! :laugh:

Cheers,

Giles.
Iain Triffitt
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Is this open for people who's designs haven't got past the "day dreaming" stage?
David Fisher
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BoardGameGeek » Forums » Gaming Related » Board Game Design
Re: Boardgames Australia Protospiel event
Just a quick report giving one participant's point of view ...

This was really useful; thanks again to Richard for organising it.

I think there were nine games in the end, played three at a time (by different people :)), with about 15-30 minutes at the end of each game for feedback.

It was great to meet some other game designers in person, including Phil Harding of Archaeology: The Card Game fame.

The "Multiverse" game I was originally intending to bring has some problems I don't know how to resolve yet, so I tried out "Herbalist" instead, a memory game with some twists ... not sure whether to keep pursuing it or not, but I had some good feedback.

Some other games people brought were: "Wool", quite an involved sheep station management game; "Terra - Age of Sail", which I really liked ... "Crossfire", which unfortunately seems to have some strategies its creator hadn't planned for that lock up the game ... and quite a few war / combat games that people seemed to enjoy.

There were some beautiful hand made components, boards, etc. ... the main issue with some of the games may have been playing time: many of the games were given a reduced play time, so the full thing may have taken 3 (or 4?) hours for some games. That could still be OK for some games, but maybe not if the target audience is quite young.

I guess the main thing I got out of the day was the fact that you can't avoid the need for playtesting, and the more exposure to different kinds of players, the better -- you can't foresee how someone else is going to approach your game, so keeping it fun for different people is a challenge.
Last edited on 2009-05-17 21:52:00 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Giles Pritchard
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That's awesome David!

I am really disappointed I couldn't be there, but the event sounds like it was a success.

The biggest and most important thing for us was to try and create an atmosphere or community among game designers here in Oz. I really hope we can manage to make these events more regular!

Is there anything you would have changed about the day if you could, or any suggestions you have for us to make it better?

Thanks so much for the report (especially since I am living this vicariously!).

Cheers,

Giles.

PS: If anyone is interested they can now follow Boardgames Australia on Twitter through the BGA Twibe found here.
David Fisher
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caradoc wrote:
The biggest and most important thing for us was to try and create an atmosphere or community among game designers here in Oz. I really hope we can manage to make these events more regular!

I think that Richard was thinking every six months or so, which sounded great.

The community thing is an excellent aim, and it seems to be happening ...

caradoc wrote:
Is there anything you would have changed about the day if you could, or any suggestions you have for us to make it better?

There was a suggestion to possibly include a talk from an established game designer, which would be great, but I am wondering how much information I could absorb on the day (along with all of the new game rules) ... maybe something over lunch would work well, though.

The amount of time allocated to the games seemed fine (it was more than was originally planned). It was nice and informal; possibly it might need more structure (stricter timing) if there were many more people.

One other issue someone brought up was "vetting" the games people bring (one game was clearly untested, and got into a locked up state) ... I'm not sure what the best way would be to handle that kind of thing, though. Sometimes it's not until you try a game with strangers that these kinds of problems come out ...

I think it would be fine to invite non-designers along too, as long as they are aware that these are our "babies" and to include some positive feedback along with the negative ... just a thought.

Hope you can make it OK next time!
Last edited on 2009-05-17 22:39:28 CST (Total Number of Edits: 3)
Giles Pritchard
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davidf wrote:
caradoc wrote:
The biggest and most important thing for us was to try and create an atmosphere or community among game designers here in Oz. I really hope we can manage to make these events more regular!

I think that Richard was thinking every six months or so, which sounded great.

The community thing is an excellent aim, and it seems to be happening ...

caradoc wrote:
Is there anything you would have changed about the day if you could, or any suggestions you have for us to make it better?

There was a suggestion to possibly include a talk from an established game designer, which would be great, but I am wondering how much information I could absorb on the day (along with all of the new game rules) ... maybe something over lunch would work well, though.

The amount of time allocated to the games seemed fine (it was more than was originally planned). It was nice and informal; possibly it might need more structure (stricter timing) if there were many more people.

One other issue someone brought up was "vetting" the games people bring (one game was clearly untested, and got into a locked up state) ... I'm not sure what the best way would be to handle that kind of thing, though. Sometimes it's not until you try a game with strangers that these kinds of problems come out ...

I think it would be fine to invite non-designers along too, as long as they are aware that these are our "babies" and to include some positive feedback along with the negative ... just a thought.

Hope you can make it OK next time!


That's fantastic!

I agree it is tough to make sure that prototypes have been tested enough that they are 'ready' for a round of blind testing and feedback. I am sure this will partially naturally occur with familiarty with the event and also with more stories by people who have attended being here and on our site. Other than reminding attendees on advertisements for the event though I am not sure - as you say - what we can do!! :D

Having a game designer or publisher would be a wonderful thing, probably most likely in connection with a larger event like the Australian Games Expo though. Another option might be to get questions from the designers attending the protospiel and seeing if we could get a range of designers to answer them - put the answers together and send them out to the attendees when the final document is done.

Sounds like a good time!

Cheers,

Giles.
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The protospiel was a lot of fun and Jesse and I got some helpful feedback that is being rolled into the next revision of our prototype. It was nice to meet David and the other designers.

I reckon a meet and greet with some published designers (they play the prototypes then we all go for a beer and a chat) would suit the day better than a lecture or speech.

It would be good to have some non-designers along as well, since I think as designers we were a bit forgiving of each other (we know the pain of struggling with a design). We could've used some more negative feedback... we can use that to improve the design. On the day we did get Tommy and Neil to sit in on a couple of sessions, which was great.

Vetting the games might defeat the purpose a bit, as it's the broken games that need playtesting the most. If you've gotten the design past the broken stage, you probably already know the value of playtesting.

Other comments:
- the beer was great
- enjoyed all the games I played; they were all fun enough to publish
- I've got some photos from the day that I won't publish due to the NDA... not sure what to do with these, but I could at least circulate them to the participants
Paul Mackie
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[Some repetition here, sorry. I'd written and posted this to my blog before I'd seen this thread.]

Congratulations Richard and Boardgames Australia for the successful running of the first ever formal and open Sydney Protospiel event.
A bit over a dozen game designers and I believe 11 original designs rolled out, the format was 3-4 tables and 3 sessions running about 2 hrs each play session.
All participants, including me, signed a non-disclosure agreement, so I won’t reveal details of people’s games, or even working title names here. I’ll only describe in very general terms some of things I saw.
The quality of the prototypes was variable as one would expect, but I was pleasantly surprised at just how good some of these were. I didn’t get a good look at everything, but Phil R. and Jesse’s WWI scenario wargame was a particular standout - it actually looked like a professionally published title. I understand they have a third collaborator who actually does game artwork - obviously a great boost to the look-and-feel of the game. This was a little reminiscent of Peter Hawes’ prototype that I saw at the Australian Games Expo earlier this year - his follow-up to Heads of State that actually looked like a finished and published product. Being Brisbane-based, neither Peter nor his new game were in attendance today, unfortunately.

Another game I would have like to have tried but didn’t get to was the new one from Phil Harding, of Cannonball Colony and Archaeology fame. Z-Man took up Archaeology TCG last year and it was finally released in March. Phil had a copy to show, complete with the Z-Man logo and still in shrink-wrap. A great result.

The last game I played was from Lawrence, who had hand-carved the core components of his game from balsa wood to really enrich the theme. I think his design was the most successful of all those I saw in embodying a specific theme within a playable game. The challenge will be in capturing that richness in the components in a mass-produced way, and we talked about various compromises that might be possible to make it work. In the meantime, Lawrence’s prototype remains an outstanding work of art in its own right.

The first game I played was a very nice hidden info/memory game from David, incorporating arbitrary visual cues that the players themselves deploy on to the game board. While not as rich as Lawrence’s game, David’s also included a fitting and very elegant theme. With only a little tweaking in the turn action mechanics, I could see a published version of this title very comfortably sitting alongside high-quality peers on the shelves of game shops. I hope you persist with this, David!

I was happy with the playtest session for my own creation, although more specifically I was happy with the feedback I received from the three ‘victims’ who hadn’t played any previous version of the rules. I had introduced a new feature recently that worked fine in simulated playing (ie., on a spreadsheet), but frankly failed to impress human players! This is an excellent outcome, because it means I must either rethink or eliminate outright that feature to improve the game experience. This barely needs stating, since that was one of the prime reasons for attending the protospiel (another is the networking with like-minded individuals and exchange of ideas, etc.). But it is reinforcement that at least two forms of playtesting can be greatly valuable. One is the simulations and walk-throughs, to try to flush out the major bugs before you inflict it on anyone else at all. The other is the playtesting with real people, preferably people who haven’t played it before and have no vested interest in your feelings so as not to be perfectly honest with you.

Richard asked for feedback on the whole event, so here are some quick thoughts.
First of all, if the next session followed the exact same routine as this one, I’d be just as eager a participant. The only small negative was the nature of the venue – the room was kind of pokey and cluttered. No-one was expecting the Savoy ballroom of course, but it was occasionally a little awkward moving between tables, chairs and gamers. But on the up-side, the venue was free and food and drink (including beer) was available right there. As I said earlier, with everything exactly the same, I’d be there.

Certainly also I’d like to see more designers and designs in attendance, but that is a variable not so easy to control. And the management of such a forum would become progressively more unwieldy the more people became involved, so that means a bit of a balancing act would be needed.

Other thoughts – more a wishlist than a set of expectations - is to perhaps have special guests doing short talks, similar maybe to the designers session they ran last year at the 2008 Games Expo in Albury. That of course would mean, a) less time for games, and b) yet more organisation and coordination. Also, judging and prizes for a “designer’s choice award” or similar. Although to make that work would require that everyone got a taste of everyone else’s game design and the format would have to be radically different. It might risk the whole day being a flop if no-one was satisfied that their game could get a decent airing with only 30-40 minutes spent on each game in the allotted time. Although I can imagine a way to do this myself, it may be just too much of a stretch to expect this from many designer folks.

Yet another thought is to have an established game publisher, maybe doubling as a guest speaker, to be an on-the-spot judge for the one design of the day determined to be the most likely commercial success. At the end of the day they award the prize and provide an explanation of why they were chosen, perhaps flushing up issues of cost of production versus likely shelf price range, target markets, etc.

Anyway, the forum is replete with possibilities and I look forward to the next game design session soon.

(Originally posted in The Mine Shaft Gap.)
Last edited on 2009-05-18 09:00:15 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Jesse
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Looks like everythings been covered but I'll just add that it was indeed and excellent day and I'll certainly be involved next time around.

Phil (R), I assume you'll at least be putting up the photos of our game somewhere right?
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Yep, I'll post them here -- I hereby give myself permission.

For the moment there's your photo from the other day:

Matthew Blain
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Hello again Giles,

Just a quick follow up to my upthread query about a possible Melbourne get-together... Was there any discussion on this? (Come to my house if you like; I think I have the room! :)).

Regards, Matt B
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G'Day Matt!

We have talked about running this. For us at this stage it is being able to implement it!

We will be discussing this at length soon! Right now we are finalising the lists for the 2009 awards, after that we will take stock and talk about what we'll be doing and how!

We may be able to run something to coincide with the next ConVic event, whatever happens we'll do our best to make this happen sometime later this year.

Cheers,

Giles.
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Since most of the Melbourne contingent will be out of the country for most of the rest of year it is as Giles said, finding someone to run it.
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While we're on the topic, here's an authentic Protospiel photo, as promised:

Giles Pritchard
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Looks great Phil! How did you go with the playtests? You commented you got some helpful feedback, how's the development going?

Cheers,

Giles.
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The playtests went well, and the combat system and cardplay seemed to work nicely, and it looked like the players had fun (they changed sides and set up a rematch while we weren't looking). We're making one major change as a result of playtest feedback, then I think we're done with the big stuff and we'll try to work on the rules text, duration, and game balance, which basically means lots of blind playtesting. We also want to run it past some military type geeks to see if we've got any of the units wrong.

We've been having most of our design discussions here on BGG, which has been great because various people come and put in their 2 cents when we get stuck.

It'll definitely be back at the next Protospiel.
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