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Thomas Krantz
Sweden Unspecified Unspecified
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Hi!
I'm playing a lot of HU Agricola and was wondering about what people usually take as their first action when Villain plays an Occupation? Assume no amazing occupations or minor resources (an unrealistic assumption but suppose they all suck or something).
If Villain plays an occupation, whats my best move?
I've routinely taken Grain/Plow since this gives me no need to aquire food for the first harvest if I can sow, but I'm uncertain if this is really a good play?
I think after studying some articles on here that Wood might be the best play? I never really considered Wood in a 2 player game to be scrace, but this is usually because my opponent doesn't value Wood that high I guess.
Thoughts anyone?
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Jason Spears
United States Saint Joseph Michigan
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Wood always feels scarce to me in a 2 player game.
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Nearly always wood. If you have any improvements that can be used with wood, taking that means you can take start player and get some use out of it as well.
And wood is scarce in 2 player, because if both players build two wooden rooms and use any on improvements, there isn't enough for both to fully fence.
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Kevin Duffy
United States Phoenixville Pennsylvania
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A common opening in 2p after ~ 80 such games played: Turn 1P1 - Occupation P2 - Wood P1 - Clay or maybe reed/wheat/plow depending on card strategy P2 - Start Player + Minor Imp (using the wood just taken to pay for the Imp.) Turn 2P2 - Occupation etc. Of course, if you have no useful minor improvement that costs wood, then you have to try something different. Anf, of course, if you have no usefull Occupations upon which to build a strategy, all bets are off here! Kevin PS - love the translation of opponent as villain!!
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Tor Sverre Lund
Norway Trondheim S-T
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Excuse my ignorance, but what's "HU Agricola"?
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Bryan Maxwell
United States Burtchville Michigan
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I agree with the above. Wood is pretty scarce in the 2p game. Between 5w per room and the cost of fencing pastures, the competition for wood is usually pretty fierce in our games.
I often take grain or plow fields early, as these action spaces never improve during the game (as in, they do not accumulate like other resource spaces.) At some point in the game, I will very likely have to take grain and plow a field at least once. May as well do it early when there are fewer other attractive options on the board.
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Bryan Maxwell
United States Burtchville Michigan
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Gawain wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but what's "HU Agricola"? Heads up maybe?
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Tor Sverre Lund
Norway Trondheim S-T
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Mr_Nuts wrote: Gawain wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but what's "HU Agricola"? Heads up maybe? Of course, thanks.
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Geoff Burkman
United States Kettering Ohio
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Powermind wrote: Hi!
I'm playing a lot of HU Agricola and was wondering about what people usually take as their first action when Villain plays an Occupation? Assume no amazing occupations or minor resources (an unrealistic assumption but suppose they all suck or something)... If Villain plays an occupation, whats my best move?... I've routinely taken Grain/Plow since this gives me no need to aquire food for the first harvest if I can sow, but I'm uncertain if this is really a good play?... I think after studying some articles on here that Wood might be the best play? I never really considered Wood in a 2 player game to be scrace, but this is usually because my opponent doesn't value Wood that high I guess. Thoughts anyone? Despite my (relative) inexperience playing heads-up, I have a few.  1. Barring any other considerations, wood is always useful. I'll take the wood, thank you, because my opponent certainly doesn't deserve to have it on their second play. 2. If I have an Ock that simply demands to be played at earliest opportunity, and a useful cost-free Minor (House Goat, Horse, etc.), I will take Start Player and get out the Minor, then play my Ock in Round Two. 3. If I have a demand Ock, and any number of useful Minors that require wood, I will take the wood, and hope my opponent doesn't step on the button. My second play will then be a button grab and the appropriate Minor. 4. If my Ocks are not high demand (i.e. just as useful played in later Rounds), I will either take a grain or plow a field, depending on what Ocks/Minors I do have that are useful in a sow/bake scenario. 5. If I have no Minors whatsoever that require wood (not likely) and no cost-free Minors as well, I will take the grain or plow a field. I agree that wood is not "scarce" in a 2-player game, because I don't consider that fourth room (i.e. second build) to be critical, but I still want to get my first build ASAP, barring any cards that obviate the need (which aren't many).
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Chris Ferejohn
United States San Francisco California
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Wood almost every time. Between fences, rooms, and improvements, I feel like wood is pretty scarce for any number of players.
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Bryann Turner
United States Lake Oswego Oregon
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I would say Wood is definitely the best choice.
Plowing a Field and taking Grain are 98% of the time bad first actions in 2 player.
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Thomas Krantz
Sweden Unspecified Unspecified
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Ok, great. Thanx for the tips everyone, will try a few games with wood and see where it leads.
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James Caddick
United Kingdom London
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Hmmm, I always thought 3w was the best first player move, let alone the best 2nd player move. I rarely play an occ if I'm start player in the first round. I much prefer 3w>sp+minor>2r.
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Alex Rockwell
United States Bothell Washington
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I've played a lot of 2er Agricola, and here are my findings:
1st action the Occupation is strongest, and P1 should take it.
Reed is the most critical resource in turns 1-5, as it allows expansion, and thus family growth. Food and Wood are also important. Any 2 Reed action is stronger than all other plays that should exist early on. (6 wood is the only other thing that can be stronger, but it usually wont occur).
Here is probably the most standard opening line that might occur on turn 1 and the start of 2:
P1: Occupation P2: 3 Wood P1: 2 Food P2: Start Player
Turn 2: P2: 2 Reed P1: Occupation?
Player 2 gets reed and wood and is close to being able to expand, while player 1 has occupations. Whether this is good for P1 depends o nthose occupations. P2 should not just let P1 get 2 reed on turn 4, they should continue to fight for future reed.
Here is player 1 trying to prevent P2 from getting the 2 reed: P1: Occupation P2: 3 Wood P1: Start Player (play a free improvement) P2: 1 Reed (to steal it from player 1 and not allow him to get 2)
Turn 2: P1: Occupation or 3 Wood. P2: The other of those.
In this line, P1 graps start player to play a free occupation (or one that just costs food). They are hoping P2 will not take the 1 reed, and then P1 will start next turn by taking 2 reed. P2 grabs the reed to prevent this. As an alternate to that, P1 grabs the 1 reed instead of start player.
Here is an interesting and strong line for P2, trying to guarantee a great action on turn 2:
P1: Occupation P2: 2 Food (!?)
P1 has several options:
* 3 Wood. (P2 takes start player, then takes 2 Reed next turn) * Start Player. (P2 takes 1 grain or plow, setting up a turn 2 with two awesome actions: 2 Reed and 6 Wood, of which he gets one. Player 1 'wasted' an action while P2 got some progress). * 1 Reed. (P2 now takes start player and takes 6 wood next turn, wrecking P1) * Other. (P2 now takes start player, and then starts out by taking 6 wood or 2 reed).
Note that lines in which you take start player before having taken Wood depend on having a 'free' improvement to play. Trying to force an opponent into one of these can be strong if they dont have one.
I actually believe the strongest line for P2 is to take 2 Food with their first action. The line: P1: Occupation P2: 2 Food P1: 3 Wood P2: Start Player (T2) P2: 2 Reed. etc
Is a strong line for P2. He has 2 reed, he has start player, he has 5 food! He has fulfilled the most pressing needs (2 reed and sufficient food). His main drawback is no occupation yet, but if P1 goes for another ccupation, he can try to screw him out of getting enough food.
This is espcially strong if P1's first occupation was something like Day Loaborer (get a bonus on the 2 food space). Of course, if P1's occupation gives a bonus on the Wood space, this becomes bad, P2 should take the wood.
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Very interesting analysis Alex. I would never have thought of grabbing 2f with my first peep.
Two player is indeed a very different animal from larger games!
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I disagree that Occupation is necessarily the strongest first move. I will always take it if I have an Occupation that requires early play, but I'll take the 3 Wood if I don't - I would never take it just for denial. Part of the reason is that, in 2P, there is very low competition for this space. Unless you *need* to have a certain Occupation out early (or need them to drive improvements), this space is invariably going to be available to you at least twice before the first harvest. So really no rush.
That said, it is clearly *one* of the best moves, and it is rare that 3 Wood/Occupation aren't the first two moves of the game. So you can pretty much assume that P1 is going to be either (Occ/3 Wood) or 3 Wood/Occ).
But before we finish Round One, let's look ahead to Round Two:
Going first in Round Two is, in my opinion, one of the best positions in the game. In most cases, you can anticipate seeing 2 Clay, 2 Reed and 3 Wood on the board, and you are going to get two of those (including your first choice). 2 Clay assures you early Fireplace. 2 Reed gives you the inside track on the first room (and a possible "reed denial" opening). 3 Wood is never a bad play with your second action. In contrast, the second player in P2 is going to have a pretty weak second move, and have essentially lost at least one (if not both) of the key 'early races.'
Put differently, Round Two is very likely going to be something like this:
Player 1: 2 of the following, including first choice: 3 Wood, 2 Clay or 2 Reed
Player 2: 1 of the following, without first choice: 3 Wood, 2 Clay or 2 Reed; Something else.
In my mind, there is almost nothing you can put in "Something else" that gets even close to what Player 1 is going to get. Even Starting Player will be very weak, because you can assume all resources will be reset to empty going into Round 3. It's usually an Occupation, or plowing or something. Nothing that can't be had later.
So with that in mind, rewind to the second action of P1.
I would suggest that, in most cases, Starting Player is the third-best available action - even for the current Starting Player. It is almost an automatic play for me if I have an appropriate Minor Improvement.
The other obvious competitors are Plow 1 Field and Take 1 Grain, because - in theory - they are being used at maximum efficiency. But I think both moves are weak. First, they may not be at maximum efficiency (if you have improvements that can make Plowing or Grain taking more beneficial later). Second, you are highly unlikely to meaningfully sow before the second harvest - meaning you are using a very early action for something that probably won't bear fruit until much later.
I would suggest the fourth strongest action on the board is 2 Food. Barring unusual cards, you will use one of your first 8 actions to take Food. Getting this necessity out of the way early will almost always give you a pace advantage over your competitor (who will have to take his 'obligatory food grab' in Round 3 or 4). Yes, his move might be a 4 Food fishing (though you may still wish to deny him that). But at the end of the day, an early food grab is, I think, a better strategic move than an early plow.
So, basically, I would expect the first seven moves of a 2P game to be:
Round 1: 3 Wood, Occupation, 2 Food, Starting Player Round 2: 3 Wood, 2 Clay, 2 Reed, [Other]
In almost all cases, I want to be the guy going first in Round 2, so I'm likely to end up with the following:
Player 1: 3 Wood, Starting Player, 2 Reed and either 3 more Wood (ready to build a room!) or 2 Clay (ready to build a fireplace, and only need a 3 Wood grab to build a room!).
versus -
Player 2: Occupation, 2 Food, 3 Wood OR 2 Clay; [Other]
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Alex Rockwell
United States Bothell Washington
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Winsome wrote: I disagree that Occupation is necessarily the strongest first move. I will always take it if I have an Occupation that requires early play, but I'll take the 3 Wood if I don't - I would never take it just for denial. Part of the reason is that, in 2P, there is very low competition for this space. Unless you *need* to have a certain Occupation out early (or need them to drive improvements), this space is invariably going to be available to you at least twice before the first harvest. So really no rush.
While the occupation space is not necessarily an early pick on say, turn 3-4, that is not because it isnt good, its because by that point there tend to be so many good things to do. There can be spaces avaialble that are actually better than it. But on turn 1, they dont exist. Its true that its not a good space if you have no good occupation to play, but that is pretty rare. It could depend on what sets youre using. I have generally played E+K because they have the highest concentration of non-useless occupations, and I have also usually done occupation and improvement drafting in order to balance the hands a lot more and ensure that everyone has at least some good things and no one has all good things. This definitely tends to lead to positions where both players want the occupation space. One of the main reason why occupation is better than 3 wood, is that if you get 3 wood a couple turns later, you probably get the same benefit (as long as you got it before you needed that wood). But if you get occupation earlier, you can use the benfit of that occupation. If you played something like Seasonal Worker or Mushroom Collector, thats going to be a huge difference. (And generally, these are the types of early game occupations that you will be playing with it). Getting a turn 1 occupation is usually stronger than turn 2, and that is stronger than turn 3, etc. So you want to get it done early. And the opportunities for other things increase in the later turns as well. Finally, getting that occupation gets you started on being able to play improvement cards that require occupations, and those can be quite strong if you get them early. Anyway, I dont think that the comparison between occupation and 3 wood on turn 1 is even remotely close. Occupation is actually massively better. Maybe in some circumstances its only somewhat better. If you take 3 wood when going first on turn 1, and your opponent takes Occupation and plays Seasonal Worker, you just handed them a huge advantage. 2 player isnt just about doing things that are good for you, its also about preventing them from doing things that are good for them. You cant ignore the defensive value of the move, even if your occupation is only ok.
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Alex Rockwell
United States Bothell Washington
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Winsome wrote: I would suggest that, in most cases, Starting Player is the third-best available action - even for the current Starting Player. It is almost an automatic play for me if I have an appropriate Minor Improvement. ... I would suggest the fourth strongest action on the board is 2 Food. Barring unusual cards, you will use one of your first 8 actions to take Food. Getting this necessity out of the way early will almost always give you a pace advantage over your competitor (who will have to take his 'obligatory food grab' in Round 3 or 4). Yes, his move might be a 4 Food fishing (though you may still wish to deny him that). But at the end of the day, an early food grab is, I think, a better strategic move than an early plow.
I fully agree with this, and I think its very important for people to realize how good both start player and 2 food are. In fact, I think 2 food can sometimes be stronger than 3 wood (because of the opportunities and play lines it sets up for you later on). Unless both players get an efficient food generating occupation/improvement early on, you should never let fishing get to 4 food. Fishing at 3 is an AWESOME action on turn 3. (Not later in the game, just turn 3)  Stealing the 3 food fishing space in a game where your opponent hasnt yet taken a 2 food action or otherwise gained food is devastating. Plowing really is terrible (without a bonus, early in the game). Turn 1 plow is practically like conceding against a strong opponent, its really bad. Basically, on Turn 1, the available opportunities suck. Occupation is awesome. Then there is some wood, some food, start player, the reed as a defensive move, and grain/plow. I like to take 2 food so that I dont have to do this later on, when there are many better things on the board. Maybe, when those 'better things' appear, I might be able to get my opponent to not take the wood, and I can get a 6 wood space when going first! One of the main 'tricks' of 2 player is that if you are going to go first next turn, you want there to be an odd number of good spaces, and if youre going second, you want there to be an even number. So you should play such that this occurs. For example: P1: Occupation (because its so much better than anything else!!!) P2: 2 Food ! What is currently going to be good next turn? There would be: 6 wood, 2 reed, and then occupation. 6 wood and 2 reed would be way better than other things, so really there will be an even # of good things. Option A: P1: 3 Wood P2: Start Player. Next turn 2 Reed. (WOO!) Option B: P1: 1 Reed P2: Start Player. Next turn 6 Wood! Option C: P1: Start Player This is the only play for P1 that doesnt give P2 a double resource next turn! And it sucks really bad for P1 if they dont have a free improvement!! Start player on turn 1 is really strong, because on later turns there are enough good things, that it sucks to have to take it!
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Agricola
» Forums » Strategy
Re: 2 Player game: Second player best first action?
I think we both agree that "3 Wood" and "Occupation" are almost always the best two opening moves in a 2 Player game. But I personally think you overstate the gap in saying things like "I dont think that the comparison between occupation and 3 wood on turn 1 is even remotely close." Situationally, they can be quite close - or 3 Wood can be better. Your custom rules might be having a greater influence than you think. By excluding the "I" deck and using a draft instead of a random deal, you are adopting a ruleset that significantly strengthens Occupation cards, especially in 2 Player, where the Occupation deck is already quite small. Think about this: You are basically dealing out 14 of out a possible 46 cards (about a third of the entire deck), and then allowing each player to pick the best ones in a draft. So the player choosing second is going to get the "second best" card, out of a selection that covers 1/3rd of the possible deck. If he's hunting for a 'early Occupation' card, he's almost certain to find one. In most games under these rules, I could see how both players are very likely to have very good "early Occupation" cards. But now consider a standard rules game using all three decks. Each player sees 7 out of a possible 65 cards - about 1/10th of the deck. They have no ability to pick from a larger pool or see what their opponent holds in a draft. I can tell you (since I play under standard rules), it is far less common to have a 'gimmee' Turn One occupation in this scenario. So, for a player operating under the normal rules and using all the cards, the notion that Occupation is dramatically better may be quite misleading. A "random 1/10th of the deck" is just far less potent than "the second best card taken from a random 1/3rd of the deck" It is quite frequent to end up with a hand of Manservants, Maids and Mendicants. So don't underestimate how your chosen variants change the value of that space for you. You are, in a way, playing under custom rules that have an enormous impact on average card quality - it should be no surprise that you value the space. I just question whether that carries the same weight for people playing under traditional rules. But even with that in mind, Occupation is not always the best move even if you have "good" Occupations. It simply depends on the Occupation. The crux of the matter is that 3 Wood is always an objectively "good" first move, whereas "Occupation" is highly situational, and can range anywhere from "amazingly powerful" to "bad." So while there are many Occupation plays that are better than 3 Wood, there are also many that are worse, either because the card itself is weak, or simply because even though the card is good, it is premature to play. To give a simple but compelling example, assume you are dealt Chamberlain. A novice reading these boards might see that Chamberlain is considered an extremely powerful (perhaps the most powerful) Occupation card you can get. Following the logic of "Occupation is clearly the best first move," it should be obvious that your first move should be "Occupation - Chamberlain." But I think any skilled player would agree that this is actually a *terrible* first move. Even though Chamberlain is a great occupation in the grand scheme of things, playing him in turn one effectively wastes an early move (he has no purpose prior to Round 11) and undermines the cards value (since your opponent now has 10 turns to plan for it). Good space + Good occupation . . . But bad move. This is a great demonstration as to why Occupation is so highly situational - it may not be the best (or even a good) opening move *even if* you are holding some of the best occupations in the game. Certainly, there are specific occupations where the opposite is true - occupations that almost force you to play them as soon as possible. Seasonal Worker. Wood Distributor. Mushroom Collector. But unless you hold an Occupation that *benefits from early play,* it is not clear that it is a good move at all. As to the other arguments, most of them apply equally strongly to 3 Wood. DEFENSIVE PLAY: In terms of the defensive value of playing Occupation first, I'm afraid I can't give that much more weight than the defensive value of taking 3 Wood first. In most cases, the 3 Wood has a higher defensive value. You are right to say that you can often get 3 Wood - but in a 2 Player game, the same can be said of Occupation. In fact, it is actually far easier and far more destructive to deny your opponent Wood than Occupations. If he has one worth playing, it is nearly impossible to prevent him from playing it by Round Three without huge self-inflicted damage. You could easily, on the other hand, take Wood 3 times and put enormous stress on your opponent while simultaneously benefiting yourself. Remember we are talking about two player here - the space is just not that contested the way it is in multiplayer and Wood is far more scarce. He's *going* to get it before the first harvest. The notion that you must take Occupation, even with a mediocre card, is important because your opponent might have a good one is also a bad bet. Yes, if your opponent drops "Seasonal Worker" on you, that's bad news. But the harsh reality is, he's going to drop Seasonal Worker on you before the first harvest and before he takes Day Laborer and there is nothing you can do about it - you can't block out Occupation for more than a turn or two. He'll just play it in Round Two as his second move or, at worst, in Round Three, when resources are once again generally back to starting values. Again, perhaps this is different in a draft situation - you *know* he has Seasonal Worker. But in a random deal, playing defensively because he has a 10% chance of having Seasonal Worker is not a no-brainer at all. IMPROVEMENT CARDS: Certainly Occupations can be precursers to useful improvement cards - but the same is true of Wood. And, since we are talking about Round 1, this is sort of a weak argument. If your first move is Occupation, and you are hoping to use it to activate an improvement card for your Starting Player move, you better hope you have either Clay Roof or Acreage. Because to my knowledge, these are the only Improvements you can play with 1 Occupation and no resources. The reality is, Wood is far more powerful to combine with Starting Player in round 1 - there are a huge number of Minor Improvements that require Wood to play. At the end of the day, there are far more scenarios where taking Wood gives you a useful minor improvement than playing an Occupation does (for purposes of Round One). Don't get me wrong - as I said at the onset, Occupation is a fine first move. At times, the best first move. Rarely any worse than second best. But at the end of the day, I can't agree with statements like "Occupation is actually massively better." It is *in some cases*, massively better. It is *in other cases,* massively worse. It is something that will vary tremendously depending on the Occupations you hold - and not just whether they are "good" or not, but whether they are "good" to play early. Being able to accurately assess the value of your Occupations - including *when* they are most effectively played, is an important skill in Agricola. It is far too simplistic to declare categorically that, in all cases, the first player should simply shuffle through his Occupation cards and automatically play the 'best' one, regardless of his hand.
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Alex Chen
United States
Colorado
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Winsome has some excellent points, and I'd also like to chime in that denying the 3W round 1 can sometimes prevent your opponent from having a relevant minor to take SP with that turn. It pressures them to have a free improvement in very much the same way that turn 2 DL does in your example.
Last edited on 2009-11-04 12:34:59 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Adam Hoffman
United States Ann Arbor Michigan
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It looks like there's not much disagreement here: Occupation may be better than Wood, if you have a good early occupation. Wood is almost always a strong opening.
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Chris Ferejohn
United States San Francisco California
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Huh. I never mix decks. I in fact thought Uwe strongly discouraged it for balance reasons. I certainly wouldn't consider all 3 mixed together as "standard". Maybe I'm the black sheep here tho...
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Brian Forsythe
United States Kettering Ohio
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cferejohn wrote: Huh. I never mix decks. I in fact thought Uwe strongly discouraged it for balance reasons. I certainly wouldn't consider all 3 mixed together as "standard". Maybe I'm the black sheep here tho... If so, you're not the only one. Looking at their contents, looks pretty clear that they're intended to be played as individual decks. This is most obvious when you consider the cards that interact with each other -- if decks are mixed, it's unlikely these combinations of cards would see play.
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James Caddick
United Kingdom London
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megasycophant wrote: cferejohn wrote: Huh. I never mix decks. I in fact thought Uwe strongly discouraged it for balance reasons. I certainly wouldn't consider all 3 mixed together as "standard". Maybe I'm the black sheep here tho... If so, you're not the only one. Looking at their contents, looks pretty clear that they're intended to be played as individual decks. This is most obvious when you consider the cards that interact with each other -- if decks are mixed, it's unlikely these combinations of cards would see play. I always play with EIK, both face to face and online.
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Alex Chen
United States
Colorado
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The cards reference each other outside of the individual deck. For instance, Ladder reduces the cost for many minors outside of the I deck (Half-Timbered House from the E deck, Mansion from the K deck, etc.). There are also some awesome and fun combos that would never see play if you didn't mix the decks together (Axe + Mansion! Perpetual Student + Tutor!). The decks were clearly designed for play either by themselves or mixed, and I think most people prefer mixed because it increases the variety of gameplay. In conclusion, the best second player first action is to mix the decks together! There, now I'm on topic.
Last edited on 2009-11-06 15:39:31 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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