Re:A winning strategy for St. Petersburg
My response to this proposed strategy. I agree on a few things, but others I completely disagree on. Now that it is possible to play St. P on BSW, there is a great way to test strategies: go on BSW and play it a LOT, against STRONG opponents who know what they are doing and will crush you if you make any mistakes.
This is a very succesful strategy that I have developed over dozens of test games, and which you might try out. Basically there are two ?schools of thought? in ?St. Petersburg?: The players who go for buildings (and early victory points), and the players who go for Nobles (late Victory points).
I think there is the third category of players: those who go for buildings only at the right time and nobles only at the right time, and thus beat anyone who goes for one or the other at the wrong time.
This strategy tries to concentrate mostly on upgrades (which are usually underestimated as something to concentrate on), and tries to improve the chances of getting the most of them.
Personally, I find that upgrades are one of the best things in the game, and that everyone who knows what they are doing values them. I certainly do not see them as underestimated.
Generally it is clear that an upgrade is MUCH better than the same cost payed for nobles or buildings. A ?17? building gives you 4 VPs, whereas an upgraded ?18? building can give you 4 VP?s AND 3 GP.
Absolutely, with the sole exception of mistress of ceremonies and judge.
The same is to be said about the noble and craftsmen upgrades, although the latter are perhaps the least important.
Actually, the noble upgrades are even more critical than the building upgrades (with the possible exception of something super-cool early on like a Bank on turn 1). This is because they have build into them the ability to get one more noble than one otherwise would, for a large point bonus.
Your first turn should look like this:
1) Craftsmen phase: Pick the two lowest costing cards, as everybody else
Absolutely true. Also, everyone knows it.
2) Buildings: Buy only ONE building, and only the cheapest one possible (preferably the 2/6 Potemkin village or the 5 building). If the only available buildings cost 14 or more, don?t buy one, rather save your money for a noble (this is important for the endgame).
I completely disagree with this.
One should not buy any building which is not 'special' building in the first build phase. Doing so destroys the ability to get as much early income. For example, the purchaser of a market now cannot afford a Mistress were it to come up, and has trouble affording the moderate cost aristocrats and still have enough for workers in the next phase, and also, it costs money that couldve been spent on upgrades. Certainly, buying a market on turn 1 is a much smaller mistake than buying a customs house, which is smaller than buying a firehouse, and so on...
Observatory is a great purchase IF you are not going to be first in aristocrats. If you were going to be first in aristocrats, you need to have 18 left in case a mistress comes out. For those late in the aristocrat phase, observatory is excellent, and n turn 1 should be used to take a worker card. This worker should then NOT be bought until the turn 2 worker phase, in case something amazing is available that would require the money you spent on it.
Potjemkin's village is a great card. I would pu it in my hand if the space were available, n case that 2 bucks was critical at some point, before you were able to buy a building upgrade (which might not happen on turn 1).
Pub is good, and cheap. I still put it in my hand, unless hand size is reaching the limit. Its very easy to play to clear hand space for when you will need it, but do it BEFORE the turn you'll need the space, so you dont waste time and miss the opportunity.
Warehouse is less good, but still good. It makes it easier to hold things for later.
If you are not able to grab one of these special buildings, you do NOT build, HOWEVER, you may have to take a building into your hand, in order to have enough aristocrats come out in that phase for you to get one. If you are third for example in the aristocrat phase, you need at least 3 open spaces and preferably exactly 3. Thus, lets say one special building came out, and the player first in buildings took it. Then its your turn. You do NOT put a building in your hand at this time. Doing so would make player 2 have enough spaces, but not you, and you'd have to take another, and it would destroy your hand space for a long time. Instead you wait. The player who will be second in the aristocrat phase takes a building into hand. He should take the SMALLEST possible building, as its easiest to clear.
Now, on your next turn you take the smallest possible building into your hand. There are now 3 spaces open. In a 4 player game, the player to be 4th in aristocrats now takes one, and then everyone passes.
Against anyone who has a clue what they are doing, buying a non-special building on turn 1 is a horriffic mistake and will probably cost you the game right there. You will look at your position three turns later and thnk "how am I get crushed this badly?" I can tell you: its that stupid, horrible building you bought on turn 1. If it wasnt a market, it'll be even worse....
Note that a building which is horrible on turn 1, like a hospital or library, will be awesome on turn 3.
3) Nobles: Buy only ONE noble, and onle the cheapest one (preferably the 4 noble). If you haven?t bought a building the turn before you definitely MUST buy a noble now, even if it is expensive.
Horrible. The turn 1 nobles is your greatest secondary income source. Your goal here is to buy the absolute biggest one you can get. A Mistress of ceremonies on turn 1 is nearly game-breaking. It is borderline broken (espeically in a 4 player game). You absolutely want to take the largest possible noble that you can afford. Also, the largest noble you can afford should be the largest one that is available to you, or else you made a mistake.
For exampe, if you are going to be 2nd in aristocrats, count on having a fairly big aristocrat available. The only player who would be unable to afford the big ones is someone who bought observatory. Observatory is probably a bad buy from anyone who is very early in the aristocrat round. You want to have at least 18 left as player 1 in aristocrats, and 16 left as player 2. If you have the opportunity to take it in the building phase, and there is nothing else good, and you are first in aristocrats, it should be put in your hand, in case a very large aristocrat comes out.
Secondly, if its possible to buy two aristocrats, you absolutely do so. If its possible to put a second one in hand, but you cant afford it, do that. However, this should not happen, as it wont make sense for players to put that many building cards in their hands. THe player who goes first in aristocrats should not but a building in hand to make the 5th open spot for aristocrats to come out. All this will do is then allow the player to put an aristocrat in hand as well. Hand space will then be very tight, and open hand space is critical on turn 2, since that is the turn that players have the least money, and cant buy much, but want to put things in hand to take advantage of opportunities later.
Note that in a 4 player game, or even 3, you need to be grabbing every possible aristocrat every time you have a chance, in order to get as many as possible by the end. Many of these will be placed in your hand in the early turns, when they cannot be afforded, and purchased nearer to the end, when buildings are no longer a great buy. This is true to a lesser extend in 2 player.
Buying the smallest aristocrat denies one critical aristocrat income, and also means that one has a cheap aristocrat that is easy to get, not a rare, expensive aristocrat that would be much harder to get later.
4) Upgrades: You now should have 14 Gold (if you have been very lucky = 25-(3+2+2+4) or less. Choose upgrades in the following order: A) Blue upgrades that bring a lot of money B) Blue upgrades that bring both money and VP?s C) Blue upgrades that bring more VP?s than money D) Red upgrades that bring VP?s AND money (Never buy a red upgrade that only brings VP if it costs you more than 6 Gold) E) Green upgrades that bring additional money or VP?s (NEVER buy Green upgrades that bring you discounts, they are good, but not for this strategy).
I think you are unlucky if your aristocrat purchase was so small that you have 14 gold left unspent. It should be more like 7-10.
As to the order to choose upgrades: aristocrat upgrades are a high priority, very strong cards. The only thing better than them are the best building upgrades, first the Bank, then Harbor, then the ones with 4 income. Even then, its probably better to buy a strong income producing aristocrat like the Builder, than a fairly strong building upgrade. Only the top building upgrades should be chosen over the good aristocrat upgrades. The moderate building upgrades (like St. Isaac's cathedral for example, 15 for 3/3), would be taken over the aristocrat upgrades that are less useful on turn 1 (the ones that are only for points). However, in the midgame, these point heavy aristocrat upgrades are the absolute best thing there is.
Of course, if you have potjemkin's village, you want a building upgrade over the aristocrat upgrade, but that is not common.
After those are gone, you want craftsmen upgrades. Wharf and weaving mill are best. for extra income. Fur shop is not so great on turn 1, but is good any time later. Carpentry workshop is pretty good, as it costs only 1 and starts saving you money fairly fast, but its not something you would take over anything that gave income, or the building or aristocrat upgrades. Gold smelter would not be so good on turn 1, its the weakest of the upgrades, as it costs 2 to play.
Basically you should hoard upgrades as much as possible, but only bring your hand up to three if you are absolutely positive you can build at least one upgrade in the next Craftsmen or Building phase.
Givne that your opponents have a clue, your only going to get 1 of them on turn 1. Your hand will most likely have 2 cards to end turn 1, a building you took because you had to, into hand, to get out enough aristocrats (if you didnt get a special building / are late in aristocrats), and the upgrade card you took and plan to play fairly soon.
IMPORTANT: Don?t build the upgrade yet, not even if it?s a green one. Never build an upgrade BEFORE the phase you really need it, as having more money always gives you more options. ALWAYS build the upgrade(s) as the last thing you do in a phase WHERE THEY APPLY, there is never any hurry, you can always play as long you want until the game continues.
Yes, absolutely. Unless you have 3 cards in hand, and are going to need a space in hand before you would be able to play the upgrade.
Your next turns (until the last turn of the game) should look like this:
1) Craftsmen phase: Buy everything you can, as long as you still make a profit (Usually it is clear if this or next round will be the last: if there is a possibility to ?force? the game end, always assume that somebody will do it).
Yes. Again, buying the cheapest. If two are tied for cheapest, buy whichever would be cheapest for the next guy.
Of course, if you have a worker upgrade and need that worker type, buy it.
2) Buildings: First look if you can buy a cheap (or even several) building/s AND upgrade the building you bought last round. If this is possible, by all means do so (in this order)! If you can only upgrade one (or even more) buildings, do so as well. If you don?t have a building you can upgrade, buy as many of the cheapest buildings as you can. Regardless of what you do take care to have AT LEAST 7 Gold to spend for the Nobles phase (INCLUDING the income you make this round). If you have room in your hand you can stock up on cheap buildings*, but only to the limit of three if you are sure you can play a card out of your hand in the next phase. You should keep fully invested here: don?t spend too little, as you need the VP income, don?t spend to much, you want to be fully active in the Nobles phase. The most common nobles are the 4?s and 7?s, so having 7 gold saved will make it pretty safe for you.
At this point, you are on the turn where money is rarest. In a 2 player game, you MUST hoard money here, because to start turn 3 a flood of workers will appear as a bunch of unpurchased buildings falls off the board. If you are broke or near broke in the turn 3 worker phase in a 2 player game, and your opponent is not, they will buy every worker and crush you badly....like by 50-100 points. I've seen it several times. I've done it several times. Dont miss the turn 3 worker flood in 2 player or you lose right there.
With more players, you can blow your money on turn 2, however if you do it on buildings it should be multiple discounted buildings of the smae type, or a discounted larger building. Preferably if you are buying a building, it is to play an upgrade card.
I would ABSOLUTELY not hoard several buildings in my hand, to get several markets or something like that. Hand space is for saving aristocrats and great upgrades, NOT for buildings except in rare cases. When you build buildings out of your hand, you will not get the 1 discount for buying them off the bottom row. This will cancel the benefit of getting duplicates. You want to buy duplicates off the discount row to make it work well, its not as cool out of your hand, and losing the hand space can deprive you of great opportunities later. You then must build those buildings out of your hand, even if something better comes along.
Also, having 7 will not guarantee an aristocrat in turn 2 if you are late in the order, since others are poor too. Now it is the time that grabbing a 7 cost aristocrat you can afford is the way to go, not taking that controller that would sit in your hand. Of course, getting the guy that sits in your hand is still better than not getting one, and getting a mistress of ceremonies into your hand is still strong.
3) Nobles: First look if you can buy a cheap (or even several) noble/s AND upgrade a Noble. If this is possible, by all means do so! If you can only upgrade one or several nobles, by all means do so. If you don?t have a noble to upgrade, buy the cheapest (or several) cheap nobles. If you have room in your hand, stock up on the cheapest nobles*, but only up to three if you are sure that you can play a card out of your hand in the next round (Upgrades). The rule about keeping fully invested also applies here, but this time you want to keep AT LEAST 5 Gold instead of 7 (with 5 you are usually sure to buy a craftsman in the craftsmen phase, and that is the next phase that you want to spend money in, not in he upgrade phase where you only HOARD the cards).
Yes. Since others who have a clue will also be doing this, you are most likely NOT going to get multiple. (Though you might in 2 player, in which case you dont WANT to, since then you miss the turn 3 worker flood that occurs in 2 player).
4) Upgrades: Stock up on upgrades THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO PLAY IN THE NEAR FUTURE (meaning you own cards that can be upgraded). Stock up even up to three, but only if you are sure to be able to play something out of your hand in the next BLUE round. This is the order of acquisition preference UP TO TURN THREE OF THE GAME: A1) Blue upgrades that bring a lot of money B) Blue upgrades that bring both money and VP?s C) Blue upgrades that bring more VP?s than money D) Red upgrades that bring VP?s AND money, if not available: only VP?s, if not available: only money (never buy a red upgrade that only brings VP, if it?s more expensive than paying 6 Gold) E) Green upgrades that bring additional money or VP?s (NEVER buy Green upgrades that bring you discounts, they are good, but not for this strategy).. AFTER TURN THREE the order changes as follows: A) Blue upgrades that bring a lot of VP?s B) Blue upgrades that bring VP?s AND money C) Red upgrades that bring both VP?s and money, if not available: only VP?s (after turn three, NEVER buy red upgrades that only bring money, only if you?re desperate) D) Green upgrades that bring VP?s. After turn 3 you should never buy any upgrade that only brings money if possible, you have already built them! Hoard the upgrades, as always playing them at the last moment where they apply!
On this I greatly disagree. At this point, the absolute top priority is aristocrat upgrades. You must take every opportunity to get aristocrats, so that you have as many as possible at the end. The aristocrat upgrade is nearly as efficient for generating income or points as the building, but it adds on a massive point bonus at the end. On turn 2, the income nobles are still best. By turn 3, the points nobles are by far the best thing that can happen to you. Zcar and Patriarch and the 20 cost guy and so forth are AMAZING. These allow you to shift an income producing aristocrat like warehouse manager or secretary, to a strong points producer, for only a few bucks, at the time when you want points and not more income! This is unbelievably strong. For example. Upgrading a secretary to patriarch costs only 4, and now you have 4 points a turn instead of 4 income a turn. The 4 income wouldnt do all that much for you, by turn 4. But 4 points a turn wouldve cost you 13 from a discounted hospital. Add to that the fact that you have a new aristocrat type, and can get a second secretary (or already did, getting it for only 11). The aristocrat upgrades are hands down the best possible upgrades past turn 1 of the game.
The last turn of the game should look like this:
1) Craftsmen: only buy one if you still make a profit (= pay 2 or less)
Of course. There might be cases where buying more of them was correct if it forced this to be the last turn by forcing out enough buildings, nad you benefitted from ending the game earlier.
2) Buildings: Now buy the MOST expensive building you see on the board (of course preferring the discounted one, if there is one), IF you can still be sure to be able to play all the cards you have hoarded in this round, of course. Also play all Blue upgrades you have (this should be top priority, of course). Invest all your money, you now should have a good income of the upgraded buildings for the next round.
Yes. You figure out your spare money, accounting for all the aristocrat spending, and then you blow the rest.
3) Nobles: You should have a lot of money to spend now. Buy/ play out of your hand AS MANY DIFFERENT NOBLES AS YOU CAN! You want to have the most! This is where all the cheap nobles that you have hoarded might come in handy. What nobles you buy depends on your hand and on the money you are able to spend, but you want to have as many different ones as possible in the end.
But I stil beat you because I was taking all those aristocrat upgrades instead of building upgrades. SO I have 9 and you have 7 and I gain 17 points. Funny how that happened. You wont have the most if you are taking building upgrades earlier. To get the most, you need to be the guy getting the most aristocrat upgrades. You absolutely want to have a hoard of aristocrats in hand at this point. In the midgame, it is FAR more efficient to put aristocrats in hand, and build large buildings (or many buildings)...and you then build these aristocrats near the end. Note that its ok to still have them in hand at the end of this phase, and build them in the upgrade phase with the money you got here.
4) UPGRADES: With the money from your nobles, BUY MORE NOBLES! There might be some on the board which you haven?t been able to pay yet, or there might be more in your hand, deviously hidden.
Absolutely!
*: About hoarding: if more than one other player plays the ?building? strategy, you should hoard buildings, to foil them. The same is to be said about hoarding nobles if more than one player plays the ?nobles? strategy. In the last turn of the game you might even consider hoarding nobles you can?t actually play anymore, if they take away more than 5 points from a nobles-collector (very tricky, this one).
The only thing you can really hoard effectively is nobles, and EVERYONE should be attempting it. If you are grabbing buildings into your hand, you are opening spaces for lots of nobles to come out, and you dont have hand space for them, and you cant really afford them since you must somehow pay for these buildigns you are 'hoarding'!
Hoarding buildings is handing all the aristocrats to others.
Also note that there isnt a 'building' strategy and a 'noble' strategy. If players are buying only one, they are simply bad players. The correct strategy is to buy each at the right times, and put aristocrats (and their upgrades) and building upgrades in hand at the right times when available, to be built when they are the most efficient.
And this is it: If you follow these guidelines, you will usually win or come in second in a game that has the other players collect buildings or nobles. Try it out ? you will be surprised how well it works. Of course there is always the possibility that the ?cards are not right?- this is a luck-driven game as well....
And yet, the strong players on BSW somehow stomp you! Why is that!?
Three main things:
1) That market you bought turn 1. Big mistake.
2) They bought the biggest aristocrat available turn 1, you bought the smallest.
3) They took aristocrat upgrades as top priority, and have a couple more aristocrats than you, you took building upgrades.
Turn 1 mistakes like buying a non-special building get compounded the entire game, and lead to massive point differences by the end.
Now, when everyone is a very good player, and knows what to do, the games will be close, and getting some large break in the cards will often determine the game, like someone getting a turn 1 mistress, or things like that. Among strong players of equal skill, it all comes down to who gets the big break. But if you have a skill advantage over your opponent (if they do anything wrong like buying a turn 1 building, buying a little aristocrat turn 1 when they couldve got a big one, not choosing the correct upgrades, not managing their hand size well, not focing out the correct number of cards in the aristocrat phase so they get one, and so on), then you can beat them unless they get VERY lucky.
Posted Mon Aug 2, 2004 10:53 am
