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Arkham Horror
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Changing the flow of the Doom track
We've found that Arkham Horror tends to have the opposite feel that it should - in the begining, there is a frantic rush to seal gates. Later on once you have a few gates sealed, you can move at a very relaxed pace. In fact, it often becomes apparent there is no way for Old One to appear at all, since there aren't really enough gate locations to build up enough Doom tokens, which also leads to the problem that its actually very BAD to close (without sealing) a gate, since it just lets more Doom tokens appear! We tried changing things a bit, and really liked how this worked out. Edit 4/2009: This variant has changed over time, and since people keep occasionally ask about the 'StormKnight' variant or look for it, I thought I should keep it up to date. This is the current version that we use with the base set, Dunwich, Curse of the Dark Pharoh and King in Yellow. We've only ever played with four characters. The older variants are still listed below.
* Take 4 'threat' tokens (we use spare stamina) and place on the GOO at start of game. When a new gate opens, remove threat 1 token but do not place a doom token. When last threat token is removed, place a doom token and replace 1 fewer threat token. When all the threat tokens are gone, each open gate gives doom token.
* A duplicate gate gives a doom token and monster surge.
* A sealed gate gives 1 monster.
That's the current variation. The rest of this is the original version.When you draw a gate at a location with no gate, place a gate and a monster as usual, but DO NOT add a Doom token. When you draw a gate at a location with an active gate, add a monster at the location and ADD a Doom token, but do not place extra monsters. When you draw a gate at a sealed location, do not place a gate or doom token, but place one monster at every open gate (as you would have when a gate opened where there already was an existing gate in the normal rules). (This represents dark forces mobilizing in direct response to your investigator's efforts). This seems to nicely alter the flow of the game. Early on, the Doom isn't building up, and you can actually afford to close gates. As more gates build up, the Doom track builds up faster. Seal gates, and its a big boon - but you will face more of a threat. And there's never a "safe" point where you know the Old One will never appear. The other change we made, which is really quite seperate, is to reduce the number of monster strength trophies need to "cash in" to 3 (or 6 for those that would normally cost 10). One gate trophy would replace 3 strength. This lets you actually get to buy more stuff, and have more fun in choosing what to get and actually getting things like allies. Edit: Whoops! Forgot to mention a minor thing. We did start out the doom track with one token on it. Another Edit: Just for the record, credit for this variant goes a lot (probably more than me) to Nightmare. A much, much later Edit: We've kept tinkering around with variants; as the new expansion comes out, things change around. However, I don't have Dunwich, so any suggestion may fall apart with an extra board. Last time we played we tried this: At the start of the game, place a Doom token on the 0 space of the terror track. This is the Threat track. (It has nothing to do with the Terror level, that's just a convenient place for it). Place one gate with one monster and one doom token to start the game as usual. When a NEW gate opens: 1) Increase the Threat track by 1. 2) Roll a number of dice equal to the new Threat level. 3) For each die that scores a 5 or 6, place one monster on the gate that just openend. 4) If any of the dice scored a 1, add 1 Doom token to the doom track. Only add 1 Doom no matter how many 1's came up. When a DUPLICATE gate opens: 1) Add 1 Doom token to the doom track. 2) A monster surge occurs. This worked nicely for slowing down the start a little, but making duplicate gates even nastier and making new gates get progressively worse as the game went on (but not usually as bad as a duplicate gate). This also hopefully fixes the 'stalemate' problems some people reported where they just focused on closing gates; while closing a gate is actually a good idea in these rules, its still going to overwhelm you eventually. The only question is what to do on sealed gates. Last play, we had sealed gates be safe, but that led to a lack of tension once we had 4 gates sealed. I'm thinking of trying: When a SEALED gate is drawn: 1) Roll a number of dice equal to the Threat level. 2) For every two dice that scored a 5 or 6, place one monster at that location (even though it is sealed). 3) If at least two dice are scoring a 1, place a doom token on the doom track. This would make Sealed gates much safer than open gates, but not totally risk free. I'll give more comments when we get a chance to try it.
Last edited on 2009-04-24 12:22:31 CST (Total Number of Edits: 5)
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This is interesting. It makes it so you really want to close gates (as opposed to only wanting to close them if you can seal them).
I dont think it would work well for 1-2 players though, but it seems very interesting for the middle numbers.
What do you think of my cultist player variant? The cultist player can collect tokens and turn them in to increase the doom track, among other things. You can get to an end where the players are rushing to win before the cultist can push the doom track to the max.
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That's a very interesting idea, and it looks really cool. I'm pretty sure it will have some side effects (as all major rule changes do) but I think it has a lot of potential when the kinks get worked out.
I'd be very interested to hear about people's experiences with this or similar ideas.
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Quote: I dont think it would work well for 1-2 players though, but it seems very interesting for the middle numbers. No idea how it would work for 1-2. I've been playing games almost exclusively with 4 characters, so I don't really know how the game goes with lower numbers. I suspect it would be much harder (with any rules set). Quote: What do you think of my cultist player variant? Sorry Axelfrog, it looks like a workable idea, but the concept of making a co-op game into a competitive game is not something that appeals to me
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I like this variant. Under the current rules, there is a serious dis-incentive to closing gates -- there's a right way (seal) and a wrong way (don't seal). The only time there's an incentive to do it the "wrong" way is if you're extremely close to having too many gates open and there are few doom counters, which doesn't seem too likely if the method so far has been to seal gates from the beginning.
This variant looks like it gives you different benefits depending on your choice, which feels like better game design.
Before I unleash this on my friends, have you played enough to get an idea of how this affects the game length? I'm concerned that a slow start on the doom track will add some time. If it adds too much, it's probably something my group wouldn't want to deal with...
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I also really like this idea - well thought out and sounds like a fun way to ramp up the challenge for those who are having an easier go and/or want a change of pace.
I do think, per the designers concept, that with 1-2 playes, it is better to play two investigators a piece - which makes this a good gameplan even with fewer players.
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We have also found the doom track to stall in the second half of the game espicially if you focus on sealing gates and the gates you do seal are the most active, so we tried your variant. Below is a turn by turn run down of the doom track for a 3 player game we played last night, we recorded both the variant and original rules.
Doom track Gate V O Opens 0 1 Opens 0 2 Active 1 2 Opens 1 3 Opens 1 4 Active 2 4 Active 3 4 Active 4 4 Active 5 4 Opens 5 5 Opens 5 6 Active 6 6 Sealed 6 6 Sealed 6 6 Opens 6 7 Opens 6 8 Sealed 6 8 Active 7 8 Opens 7 9 Sealed 7 9 Sealed 7 9 Sealed 7 9 Investigators won with 6 sealed gates.
Key Opens - A new gate opens Active - Active gate Sealed - Location sealed V - Variant rules O - Original rules
Our approach to the game definitely changed everyone could could now see it was important to close gates not just to gain them as trophies but to slow the advance of the Doom track. I think the variant only partially worked it certainly gives you more incentive to close gates rather than just sealing them. Ironically this resulted in far more new gates opening making the original rules work much better.
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Quote: Ironically this resulted in far more new gates opening making the original rules work much better. Could you elaborate at all on what you felt did not work well? I'd definetly like to hear any details. Its interesting to see the difference between original and variant doom version, but I'm curious how you tracked it. We've tried that as well, but it gets a little tricky since we occasionally close gates that we really wouldn't have bothered closing and not sealing in a normal game. So far, our rough estimates have always indicated that we would have gotten fewer doom tokens with the regular method. We've only played with the variant 4 times so far, so its not exactly extensive, but we've been happy with it. Its also handed us our only defeat, which really wouldn't have been a problem in the regular rules - we picked up around 5 or 6 doom tokens with only 2 gates open! In the regular rules this would be an ideal gate draw - with only 2 gates open, you don't get enough extra monsters for it to matter much. (Things were pretty wacky though - we actually got 3 of our doom tokens out of Independence Square, hitting it twice, then shortly later reshuffling and after the shuffle hitting it twice in fairly short order again) Quote: Before I unleash this on my friends, have you played enough to get an idea of how this affects the game length? I'm concerned that a slow start on the doom track will add some time. If it adds too much, it's probably something my group wouldn't want to deal with... I'm sorry, we have not really been tracking game length - it has also seemed to vary a great deal with how things happen to work out. I can see some added time from the variant - time spent closing gates you wouldn't close in the regular game. But I can also see some reduced time - you don't get as many 'monster swarms' in the middle/early. Reducing the monster strength cost to 3 to purchase also speeds things up a little for getting resources faster.
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Maybe there's something I'm missing here but it seems you extend the game dramatically by doing this. In an 8 player game would the GOO even ever come out? If the only time a doom token can be placed is when mythos card lists a gate that's already open and you have players keeping every gate closed then the odds are pretty slim on adding doom tokens, except maybe the turn after a portal is open (simply because is takes a awhile to explore). The odds of adding doom tokens at all (in large player game), as long as you making closing portals your goal, seems pretty slim. Is there something I haven't thought of?
Last edited on 2005-07-09 11:09:04 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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I think both sets of rules suffer once gates are sealed. If you look at the Mythos cards or just play the game 2 or 3 times it becomes very obvious that 4 of the gates should be sealed before any others. Once 3 or 4 of these are sealed the difficulty (and worse tension) of the game drops right off. Were finding this happens with the doom track half way or just above so there isn't much chance of it going to the top (note the terror track is high at this point). This is really my only contention and . Quote: I'm curious how you tracked it. We played the game using your variant then each time a Mythos card was drawn recorded the effect on two seperate doom tracks. If a gate opened 1 token was added to the original track, if the gate was active we added a token to the variant track. What we didn't do was try to second guess whether a gate would have been closed had we not used the variant. Quote: We've only played with the variant 4 times so far, so its not exactly extensive, but we've been happy with it. Considering it was only one game I don't put to much stock in the figures. We'll certainly try the variant again but I think with some additional difficulty tweaks. We did all agree that the original rules would work much better for our group if the incentive to close gates was higher. Overall I'm really enjoying the game it's just a bit too easy for my taste (thats after about 7 plays). My personal preference is for these sort of games to be very hard, both Doom (FFG) and Lord of the Rings (knizia) I enjoyed for this reason. There are many ways to increase the difficulty so this isn't a problem. Quote: In an 8 player game would the GOO even ever come out? If the only time a doom token can be placed is when mythos card lists a gate that's already open and you have players keeping every gate closed Imagine a 1 player game the doom track would shoot up. Don't forget though 3-5 is the recommended number of players, the further you move from that the more the rules seem to become stretched.
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Quote: In an 8 player game would the GOO even ever come out? Yeah, I can see an 8 player game not working well with this, since you would have so many people to close gates. We've been playing with 4 characters (usually with 2 people playing two characters each) and I can't judge it for anything outside of that. The one game we played with 6 players (by normal rules) made us hesitant to even try it with that many players again - just too much down time, not really enough for that many characters to do. I suppose you could always make their be a cost of 1 or 2 clue tokens just to close a gate, which would make it less trivial to do.
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I am suprised that you are able to seal that many gates to have a problem. In most of the game I have played, clue tokens are a very valuable commodity (esp. when playing against Hastur). Are you really getting that many clue tokens/Elder Sign cards that it is trivial to seal gates?
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Ok here's my thought on gate closings. This should make the seal the gate game more difficult. 2 gates for: Hibbs, Silver Twilight, science, historical society These should take 5 clue tokens or an elder sign 6 gates for graveyard, black cave, unnamable These should take 6 clue tokens or an elder sign and a clue token 10 gates for Woods, independance square, witch house, unvisited Isle, These should take 7 clue tokens or and elder sign and 2 clue tokens. I think this would increase the difficulty nicely.
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That's a nice solution as well. I like the idea of making the "stronger" gates take a bit more work than the cheapies. After all, all Ancient One incursions into our reality are not equal.
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How about:
2 CT for the 2 openers: Hibbs, Silver Twilight, science, historical society or 1 stamina 1 life on the elder sign
6 CT for the 6 openers: graveyard, black cave, unnamable or 2 life and 2 stamina on the elder sign
10 CT for the 10 openers: Woods, independance square, witch house, unvisited Isle, or 3 life and 3 stamina on the elder sign.
That rounds out to 66/11 locations or 6.6 per gate rather than the 5 it takes currently.
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I should note that our intention was not entirely to make the game "harder" - though we did feel the odds of the GOO arriving were fairly slim.
I can't say I really mind if the game is winnable most of the time. Unlike a game like Lord of the Rings, where I find the enjoyment being trying to "beat" the game, with Arkham I find most of the fun in seeing what sort of things happens, and what interesting stuff you get to do, and the small scale challenges of whether or not you can resolve the rumors, or close a difficult gate, or fight a tough monster, or find a way to rescue a trapped investigator.
Basically, we feel like the tension in the game is very backwards. At the beginning, you are sort of feeling panicked as the doom track starts building quickly and lots of gates are opening. Then you start getting a few gates sealed, and get to a point where you can just sort of sit back and relax - you've got a few gates open, but a lot of them that keep trying to re-open just do so on the spots you've already got sealed, or pop up on existing gates and just give you a few stray monsters. We feel that this should sort of go the other way around; at the start of the game you should feel like you have some time, and then it should get more and more desperate as the game goes on.
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I wonder if some sort of method to allow a seal to be broken would be worth trying?
Just off the top of my head, I was thinking that maybe a seal could only prevent that gate from opening two or three times. Enough to give you a respite, but not so comfortable that you can just sit back and take your time getting seals 5 and 6 down.
Proposed method: when you seal a gate, put three elder sign tokens on it. Whenever that location comes up, remove an elder sign token. If no token remains, the gate opens as normal.
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The StormKnight variant seems interesting, but has some problems, like the extension of the game playing with more players if they keep the gates closed. Why not to add only this modification to the rules: when you draw a gate at a sealed location, place one monster at every open gate. The filling of the Doom track remains as in the original rules, adding Dooms tokens when opening new gates. This way sealing a gate continues to be good, but not so good! Every Mythos card this way has a nasty effect: or it opens a gate adding to the Doom track or it adds monsters to the game. Now when you seal a gate you know that its more difficult for the GOO to appear, but it is also more easy for monsters to appear, easily representing the crescent mobilization of the evil and the increasing of terror. The rules modification this way is minimal which is another good point.
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I believe Jocbo's idea would quickly lead to the terror level surpassing 10, and then a HUGE pile of monsters being in the way of the open gates.
While this would be exciting, I'm not sure it would be fun.
--michael
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jacoboca wrote: The StormKnight variant seems interesting, but has some problems, like the extension of the game playing with more players if they keep the gates closed. Why not to add only this modification to the rules: when you draw a gate at a sealed location, place one monster at every open gate. The filling of the Doom track remains as in the original rules, adding Dooms tokens when opening new gates. This way sealing a gate continues to be good, but not so good! Every Mythos card this way has a nasty effect: or it opens a gate adding to the Doom track or it adds monsters to the game. Now when you seal a gate you know that its more difficult for the GOO to appear, but it is also more easy for monsters to appear, easily representing the crescent mobilization of the evil and the increasing of terror. The rules modification this way is minimal which is another good point.
I think this is a good idea, and I agree there is an issue here that should be looked at. I also think that the number of gates to be sealed for victory and the cost of sealing a gate should be scaled as well. EDIT: perhaps instead of a monster appearing 'everywhere', you add only x monsters (to the gates with the highest modifiers) where X= the terror level.
Last edited on 2005-07-14 12:32:34 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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jacoboca wrote: The filling of the Doom track remains as in the original rules, adding Dooms tokens when opening new gates. This way sealing a gate continues to be good, but not so good!
I see a few problems with this. First, it will bog the game down with even more monsters, which can really slow things up. It doesn't neccessarily make the game "harder" - if the investigators get really tooled up, they can handle monsters, especially if they are careful never to "cash in" the really tough monsters. Second, it maintains the same problems - its still a very bad idea to close a gate. Sure, you may avoid a few monsters, but you get a Doom token instead! Monsters can always be defeated eventually. And once several gates (especially if you seal the active gates) are sealed, you can still reach a safe point where, unless you close a gate, not enough new gates can open to cause the GOO to make an appearance. Stay thoughts on another way to do Doom tokens (totally untested, just a stray thought): Place a Doom token when a new gate appears, as normal. When a gate is closed, place a "Doom" token on that space. If a gate appears in that space, remove the doom token but do NOT place a token on the doom track. (Now closing gates is still a good thing). When a gate opens in a space that already has a gate, put an Eldar Sign token in the next space on the doom track - this does NOT count as a doom token. However, if a gate opens on an existing gate and there already is an Elder sign token on the Doom track, flip it over and turn it into a doom token. That mixes up both ways a little.
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Just wanted to note that we played a few games with this variant with just 2 characters. It worked pretty well - each game was a very tense race, but we managed to win each time. Against Hastur, we did need to go on a desperate hunt for an Elder Sign as his Doom track was only a space or two from being filled. We also found the terror level going up quite a bit with only two players.
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We just used this variant with two people against Shub-Niggurath. The experience, for us, was much, MUCH better. Awesome variant! We liked that the doom track was linked to how long you let gates stay open. Also, there was no ridiculous monster flooding early on (an element of the game that we find extremely tedious). We did alter the variant a little bit by also tying the doom track to the terror track, with a doom token being added at 3, 6 and 9. The cool thing about doing this is that even when we had several gates sealed, the GOO had an alternate, albeit a bit slower, route to gaining strength. Also, we found that we didn't need to lower the values of monsters and gates needed to purchase things. It was down to the wire, with Shub-Niggurath at 10 doom tokens (of 12) when we sealed the sixth gate. It's worth noting that had we not sealed the gate, the next Mythos card would have caused her to awaken (one doom token for an existing gate and the monster spawned would have gone to the outskirts, causing the terror level to rise to 6, which would have been the second doom token). Thanks, Stormknight!
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You brought up a good point about the game getting 'easier' as the game progresses. I am sure this is intentional as the sealing gates represent the GOO weakening. He finally gets banished when the investigators weaken him enough. __________________________________ Off the top of my head, here is my solution to the fact that this wouldn't work with lots of players: I suggust that you keep everything in your varient the same except advance the doom track when a new gate opens AS WELL. Since this would make the game rediculously difficult, I suggust removing a token from the doom track WHENEVER a gate is sealed. This makes the eldar signs not as powerful as getting them is almost entirely random. -------------------------- I'll probably stick to the official rules, but to those who think the game is too easy, I'm sure there will be new challenges for you in the future
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