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Subject: Hanging Gardens Stage 2 : 7th card or "7th round" rss

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Dan Zielinski
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Can you use the commerce money received with everyone's 6th card on your 7th card?

(A) No, because you play both during round 6.

(B) Yes, because you play second card on "Round 7"

The rules read both ways...

Rule supporting (A) :: "during the sixth turn, the player can therefore play both cards they have in hand."
This suggest that there is no change of round.

Rule supporting (B) :: "...the babylon player can then build it (the 2nd wonder stage) on their sixth turn and then play the seventh card instead of discarding it."
This suggests that you resolve round 6... then babylon gets "round 7."

We played it (A) at the time... and it did prevent the building of the 7th due to lack of money. Playing (B) would have allowed the build for he received commerce during round 6.
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Todd Warnken
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I don't know which way is correct but I'd vote for "B".
 
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Trent Hamm
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How are these two rules in conflict?

There's a seventh round each age. If you wish, you can play both cards in your hand on round six, but you don't have to. You can hold one until round seven.

Sometimes it's optimal to do the first thing. Sometimes it's optimal to do the second thing.
 
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Ian Pittock
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I would vote for B, though i think the most "by the rules" answer is probably A. I think B is more in keeping with the idea behind the abilities design.
 
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Dan Zielinski
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trenttsd wrote:
How are these two rules in conflict?

There's a seventh round each age. If you wish, you can play both cards in your hand on round six, but you don't have to. You can hold one until round seven.

Sometimes it's optimal to do the first thing. Sometimes it's optimal to do the second thing.



It's a conflict because there is no round 7. Not all players get to play all their cards. All cards not played in 6 rounds are discarded. That's at least 1 card per age per player.

If this wasn't the case... the player after babylon is hindered in round 7 as is the build a discarded card free ability.
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Tim Seitz
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7 Wonders » Forums » Rules
Re: Hanging Gardens Stage 2 : 7th card or "7th round"
There's no "extra turn" according to the rules.

During the 6th turn, you can play the 7th card instead of discarding it. There are no other rules that discuss exceptions for timing or for buying resources from players. (i.e., can you buy again from players on the same turn?). All of those would seem to be extras in the rules, but they are not supported. it clearly says you need to have the money at "the beginning of your turn."

You get to play your "extra card," you do not get an "extra turn."

So therefore, I say A
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Adam Smiles
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Here's the designer's response to a similiar question in another thread about the Hanging Gardens. It would seem to suggest that B is the correct ruling.

toinito wrote:

Yes, it's two different cards, like two different turns... The first could help you to play the second (discard the 6th for money and use the money to play the 7th for example...)
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Tim Seitz
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Interesting. That could probably go into a subsequent edition's rules page.
 
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Dan Zielinski
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asmiles wrote:
Here's the designer's response to a similiar question in another thread about the Hanging Gardens. It would seem to suggest that B is the correct ruling.

toinito wrote:

Yes, it's two different cards, like two different turns... The first could help you to play the second (discard the 6th for money and use the money to play the 7th for example...)


Many thanks for this! I was personally agreed with Tim... but the ruling on being able to buy the same resourses from the same player for the 7th card kept me thinking it was played like a "7th round." Same with building a Loom (for example) round 6 and then using it for the 7th. That again suggested (B).

We will play (B) from now on.

Thanks.
 
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Jarrod Babel
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I have a follow up question. When playing the 7th card can you use resources you produce to play the 7th card if you already used them to play the 6th? IE-if you need 2 wood to play the 7th card and you produce 3 and used 2 wood to play your 6th card. Do you have to buy a wood from a neighbor or not?

Thanks.
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Jon Bowker
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The designer's response would suggest "yes." If you are allowed to use the resource you may have built as the 6th card, you would essentially go through a create resource phase to gain that new resource as well as all your prior existing ones as well.
 
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jbabel wrote:
I have a follow up question. When playing the 7th card can you use resources you produce to play the 7th card if you already used them to play the 6th? IE-if you need 2 wood to play the 7th card and you produce 3 and used 2 wood to play your 6th card. Do you have to buy a wood from a neighbor or not?

Thanks.


yes you can use the resources again as it is like another turn !
 
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asmiles wrote:
Here's the designer's response to a similiar question in another thread about the Hanging Gardens. It would seem to suggest that B is the correct ruling.

toinito wrote:

Yes, it's two different cards, like two different turns... The first could help you to play the second (discard the 6th for money and use the money to play the 7th for example...)


Where is this from?
You provided no link.
I can't find this anywhere with a BGG search, it doesn't seem to be among toinitos postings (I even went through all postings in his profile). Was it deleted by now?

I think the whole issue is really annoying, I have just been going through loads and loads of threads with questions on the timing of the second stage of Babylon B which are quite understandable as the rules as written are just incredibly unclear on this.
And none of the threads seems to contain a sufficient official answer based on the printed rules or a statement from someone in a position to decide.
In most of the threads, the people that answer seem to state their (sometimes opposing) opinions as fact without any proof from rules or designer.
This thread is at least the closest to an official answer I have found, but without a link to the original posting I don't really find it satisfying.

What is more important, toinitos rather vague quote above with "like two different turns" doesn't really decide if the second turn comes within the sixth turn or is a new seventh turn. Which is very important for the question if Babylon or Halikarnassos (or the appropriate ability on Great Wall, via Manneken Pis, on Salomon or via Courtesan's Guild) have to go first. (See here (*click*) and here (*click*) for rule question threads specifically on Babylon-Halikarnassos interaction, there are probably more.)

The wording of the rules on p. 9 which say "during the sixth turn, the player can therefore play both cards they have in hand" would indicate that this definitely can't be a new seventh turn. So maybe turns 6.1 and 6.2?
Which would mean that Babylon has to go before Halikarnassos et al. as their ability happens "at the end of the turn" according to the rules (p. 8 and 9 of the base game rules on Halikarnassos).
But then, toinito's quote above unfortunately doesn't sound as if this passage of the rules is supposed to be taken literally. Or is it?

Or was toinitos ruling supposed to change the "during the sixth turn" wording of the rules in the first place? I don't really think he can change the printed rules with a vague BGG posting in the middle of nowhere that doesn't even explicitly say it is an erratum - I think this should take issuing a more official erratum.

By the way, I have also checked the French original of the rules and that has been translated accurately into English here as far as I can tell (the original says "lors du sixième tour").
The translation in the Germa rules says the same ("während der sechsten Runde").

This question is also relevant to decide how to handle Babylon B as a free city in a game with 2 players (*click*). If they are turns 6.1 and 6.2, the same player would make them for the free city. If they are turns 6 and 7, it sounds like turn 7 would be made by the other player. But then, this sounds somewhat counterintuitive, so I could see toinito overruling the literal meaning again.

The rules as written are just completely unclear on these questions, I think there really should to be an official rule clarification to get rid of all of these annoying threads on the second stage of Babylon B for good!
 
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J
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A google search was able to find this:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/5739388#5739388
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By the way, from a game balance perspective I would like Babylon to go after Halikarnassos et al. as it can use this slight advantage compared to the other base game wonders. I regard Babylon as the weakest base game wonder (although not by that much). (Many others agree that Babylon is the weakest base game wonder.)
 
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Thanks for the link, should have remembered JFGI...

The thread brings up even another legitimate Babylon B question unanswered by toinitos posting: *Click*
 
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Darador wrote:

I can't find this anywhere with a BGG search, it doesn't seem to be among toinitos postings (I even went through all postings in his profile). Was it deleted by now?


I've just checked again and oddly enough, there is no thread with a title including "Hanging" among the 5 pages with lists of toinitos Board Game Replys: *Click*
Looks like a bug of the BGG "Threads & Replies" overview to me.
 
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Darador wrote:
Darador wrote:

I can't find this anywhere with a BGG search, it doesn't seem to be among toinitos postings (I even went through all postings in his profile). Was it deleted by now?


I've just checked again and oddly enough, there is no thread with a title including "Hanging" among the 5 pages with lists of toinitos Board Game Replys: *Click*
Looks like a bug of the BGG "Threads & Replies" overview to me.


Your problem was stopping at 5 pages. The relevant thread was located on page 6.
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asmiles wrote:

Your problem was stopping at 5 pages. The relevant thread was located on page 6.


Strange, for some reason I didn't see the next button on the 5th page and thus thought it was the last one. My bad!
 
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