Interviews by an Optimist # 63 - Zev Shlasinger

Zev says this about himself…

I was born in 1966. Grew up in Brooklyn. I started playing games early with your standards: Monopoly, Careers, Life, etc. At around 11 I played Stratego, then graduated to Risk. At 12 I learned AD&D. In 1983, in the Science Fiction Club of Brooklyn College, I learned Star Fleet Battles. Don't know when I started playing Axis and Allies, but I played that for many years and used to play 2-3 games simultaneously via email.

In 1994 I got into Magic: The Gathering. I became a judge, running events and joined a group called Arcane Circle. At one point we represented nearly a dozen CCGs - we were one of the best judges and demonstrators for CCGs. During my tenure with this group I fell in love with Shadowfist. That is the CCG I focused on and is the reason, in 2000, that I started Z-Man Games, Inc. I brought the game back from death in 2000 and for 5 years have produced and supported it.

Personally, I got into eurogames with Settlers but really never played much except at cons. I got into it more in the last few years, playing new games whenever possible (again, mostly at cons). I'm practically a tyro in the eurogame hobby, despite going to many cons, even attending Essen. But I got into producing boardgames in 2003, with Ideology, though I have done card games prior (the B-Movie series). In 2004 I did Camelot Legends and in 2005, Primordial Soup, Santiago, Saboteur. 2005 isn't over, and I have about 8-12 card and board games scheduled for release. It's going to be a busy year.

Tom Vasel: What exactly triggered your move from card games to "Euro" games? And why the sudden explosion in new releases?

Zev Shlasinger: I wouldn't say I moved from card games to Euro games, cause I'm still releasing card games. Besides a B-Movie game every year, I got Street Illegal, UWO, Dungeonville, and Fairy Tale coming out in the next few months. Adding Euro games is just diversifying my catalog of games being published. And I do like Euro games, which helps.

As for the sudden explosion of releases, that can be attributed to having a good 2004 in sales. In addition, I have gotten a little more aggressive in my contacting people to get rights to certain games. I will have to extend props to several people who have been emailing me to check out certain games: their help has opened my eyes to games I might not otherwise have seen available.

Tom Vasel: Speaking of the B-Movie games, what gave you the original idea to do them? Are they your best selling games?

Zev Shlasinger: The designer, Stephen Tassie, sent me the game: my first outside submission. A friend of his knew Shadowfist and told him to send it to me for a looksee. I liked the humor of it, but it needed to move faster, and I and my only employee at the time, Paul Gerardi, worked on fixing the cards and rules to make it flow faster. But it was the humor (and subject matter) that appealed to me, so I decided to give it a shot. And it was a good decision.

Yes, the B-Movie games are my best sellers. And sales haven't gone down: in fact the sales for the older games even spike with a new release.

I love the B-Movie games - they make me laugh. And I love watching people laugh at the cards as I'm teaching them the game. Gives me great joy. I know it's not a deep strategy game: it's not meant to be and is never sold like that. It's just a fun, relatively quick game - that's it. Though I will argue with those that say there is no strategy cause there is some strategy. There are decisions that need to be made, not deep ones, but decisions none the less. When to play a card where, which victim to kill in a successful attack, etc. That is strategy - but ultimately, yeah, the idea is to maximize the fun.

Tom Vasel: How can Z-Man games be competitive in a market already filled with great US board game companies? Is there enough room for everyone?

Zev Shlasinger: You know, I ask myself that all the time: do we need more games? But then I see all the new books out there and new movies - apparently people do want new things within the form of entertainment they like. In this case, games.

But it's not enough to just do games, you have to do good games to be competitive. And I search out for good designs to publish and look for games that are good that have been published that I feel need more access to the gaming public. I started the latter with Primordial Soup, which people thought I could not bring to market because of all the wooden components. That was a challenge I had to accept, and I'm proud of the result.

I just hope to continue to bring in some favorites while publishing soon-to-be favorites.

Tom Vasel: Can you tell us about your upcoming games?

Zev Shlasinger: Whew, that is a long list Between now and end of this year I plan to publish: UWO, Street Illegal, Parthenon, Berserker Halflings from the Dungeon of Dragons, Siena, Castle Merchants, Reef Encounter, Dungeonville, Silk Road, Fairy Tale, a new Shadowfist CCG core set, and the RPGs, Tomorrow Knights and Midway City. I hope I did not leave anything out!

I am also in talks to release a couple of other games, but I can't reveal them just yet…

Tom Vasel: How do you determine what games to publish?

Zev Shlasinger: When it is a new game, I look for original mechanics in a theme that is not oversaturated in the market. If the theme has been done to death, then I look for a unique hook. If it is an import, I look to see how popular it is (by visiting BGG and reading up on the game). I try to play the game if I can, and I talk to people about the game. But I also look for originality and uniqueness (hence Primordial Soup being my first import). A lot of it is my own feeling: if I really like the game, I'll do it.

However, there is the business side of things: I determine how much it will cost to publish the game and then figure how much I need to sell to break even; if I feel I can break even quickly, then the game will probably be published. Believe me I wish I had the wherewithal to publish anything anytime but I can't - one major mistake can prevent me from publishing any more games. This is a small marketplace, and I'm a small fish in it: so I have to be careful how I handle the publishing of a game.

Tom Vasel: What would be your advice to aspiring game designers?

Zev Shlasinger: Know what's out there and do something different. Research your game, playtest it to death and with some groups who are not your friends or related to you. Research the companies you wish to present the game to, etc. Write a good proposal but don't include the lines "my friends/family love this game and ask me to play it with them all the time." Keep playtesting. And finally, don't give up if you really believe in it.

Tom Vasel: How important is theme to a game?

Zev Shlasinger: Very important...to me. It helps my experience during the play of the game. I feel more connected to what I'm doing. It helps me to think more strategically because I'm thinking of the theme and what would be done as I'm playing out the theme - it's hard to explain. A simple example would be if you were playing a Star Wars game that was really thematic (not just numbers attached to Star Wars names) you have a frame of reference to help you think up a strategy; if you were playing a Jedi, you can think, hmm, what would a Jedi do in this situation and then think on the knowledge you possess about the theme.

It's just the theme makes a nice wrapper over the mechanics; and if both are good, then the total play experience is so much better. I got this when I learned Dune last year. The mechanics and theme were so married to each other that it enhanced the play of the game. Even though I lost the game, I had such a great time cause I was really immersed in the game and constantly amazed how the mechanics and theme worked so well together.

Does this mean that themed games are better than non-themed games? Of course not. I'm sure there are plenty of examples to bear this out, however, I like theme. But I'll sit down and play loosely- or non-themed games if they are good.

Tom Vasel: In your opinion, where is the American board game market headed?

Zev Shlasinger: Like most everything else, it will cycle through highs and lows. However, the main thing that one can take from the sale of these games is that we are more global now when it comes to games: any boardgame worthy (and not always that) of being brought to our market will find its way here. We have seen it in the past with the various online retailers selling international games, and we see it now with the number of international games making it to our market in our language. Heck, I'm bringing several and don't see myself stopping anytime soon.

Tom Vasel: Camelot Legends has some incredible artwork. How do you go about getting the artwork for your games?

Zev Shlasinger: Well, I knew several artists during my tenure as a demonstrator for various CCGs, but I got to work directly with many on the Shadowfist CCG. I also spend hours looking at internet sites that gather artist works; and I go through all the names, jotting down those whose styles I like, whether or not I got a project for them at the moment.

Regarding Camelot Legends, that came about because of my prior relationship with Ed as an artist/art director. He was involved in the project before me and brought me in: and he brought in a lot of incredible talent to help.

Tom Vasel: How important is artwork to a game?

Zev Shlasinger: Well it probably isn't as important as I thought it was, though I believe it enhances the play of the game by helping you to immerse yourself in the game (especially if you are into theme and the art reflects the theme positively). However, there are probably many games that are good despite the art. Take Ideology for example, which people are not crazy about the icons and cover box, yet it still sells well - I think the quality of the game rose above the art.

Also, art is subjective: what I think is beautiful you might think is dreck. So how does one decide what kind of art to do? With Camelot Legends, though, I have not heard anything bad about the art - and that is a first let me tell you. But I bet if you ask people what their favorite pieces are you'll get a wide range of answers. Look at the responses to the changed artwork on my upcoming Reef Encounter: some people stand by the original art and some are so happy that the art is being changed.

So as a publisher, should I go all out and spend a lot of money on art? I guess it comes down to my tastes and to what I can afford: I'll always go for good art if I can and the game warrants it. Why, because while good art won't hurt a game, it can help. But with bad art you are taking a chance of losing interest. This is assuming one can tell the difference between good art and bad art

Tom Vasel: Besides art, will you change anything else about Reef Encounter?

Zev Shlasinger: I will not change anything: it's all up to the Italian company whom I got the rights from to sell the game available in North America. I believe a copy of the player aid is on the BGG, so I know that got changed - but did it change for the better? I'm sure we'll hear from the consumers on that front.

I know there was trouble distinguishing white from gray in the original version and while the new version's colors still might not be disparate enough, the picture on one of the colors (the gray I think) shows a different picture to help distinguish between the tiles.

If there is another change, I don't know it - yeah, I know that sounds crazy, but I'm putting my faith in What's Your Game's ability to deliver the goods.

Tom Vasel: So in an instance such as Reef Encounter, are you basically translating the game into English and then stamping your name on the box?

Zev Shlasinger: Yeah, pretty much. First time I recall. Though I did ask if they were aware of the problems between white and gray: but I had no real input otherwise.

Tom Vasel: When publishing a new game, how much info do you release to the info-crazy internet? How useful does that prove?

Zev Shlasinger: I release anything I can to get a buzz going. However, my time is limited and since I'd be doing this mostly by myself, things fall through the cracks. I do put info on my website, giving a release date, offering a synopsis of the game and credit the designers. I try to provide price info as well.

I've been more in contact with Rick Thornquist of Gamefest, providing him with news of upcoming games; and I think that has helped increase the knowledge of my company among boardgamers. And whatever is printed in Gamefest gets on BGG, so it's important for me to get Rick the info he needs: I once asked Aldie (a year or so ago) if he would offer the opportunity for companies to give out press releases on BGG, but it was not something he was ready to tackle.

So a publisher's resources to provide information directly to customers are limited, so really it's my website, Gamefest, BGG, and perhaps a couple of other dedicated sources. I emphasize dedicated because Scrye and Inquest sometimes print news of upcoming boardgames, but they are not dedicated boardgame magazines, so I don't know how many boardgamers go there for their news.

If there are other dedicated resources out there (and I'm sure there are), I'd love to hear about them so that I can pass them information when I can.

I should maintain a mailing list, and I think I will have someone create a web-based forum for my games, and I think this will help get information right to the consumer.

All this means is that I think getting out information to the widest audience is very important.

Tom Vasel: I see from the front page of BGG that you'll be at BGG.con. How important are cons to you, what benefits do they provide, and which is the best?

Zev Shlasinger: Cons are very important to me; that's why I do about 15 a year. Personally. And another few by representatives (like BBG.con this year I'm afraid). I find cons to be the best marketing I can do - which is how a publisher should treat a con. But when I can sell enough to recoup my money and then some, well, cons then become the best return on investment.

One advertises to let people know who you are and what you have. But with an ad, who knows how many people are actually reading it, let alone noticing it. At a con, I am advertising, and I get the extra benefit of immediate feedback. People see me and remember me and hopefully the next time they are in their store, they will look more favorably toward purchasing my games.

The best con is hard to measure: do I go by sales or by buzz? Or by something else? As I see cons being a marketing tool, then Gencon and Essen provide the best buzz for me. It also happens that both those shows also provide the best sales. Gencon makes the most sales for me, not only by total gross, but compared to the attendance, the ratio of sales to attendance makes the show a true success. Essen, while sales are great, the ratio between those sales and attendance is not great. But I'll take the total sales thank you very much. For example, I'll throw out a number: if I make $10K at Gencon with 30K attendance that is a better ratio between sales and attendance than making $15K at Essen with 150K attending. Still, I'll be very happy to make $15K at Essen.

I do like Origins: even though I feel attendance and sales were light, when I totaled my receipts I truly have nothing to complain about. I also like Origins because it feels more laid back to me: I don't seem as time crunched as I do with Gencon. Plus there's a place where I eat lunch every day that makes amazing deli sandwiches - reminds me of home in NY. Though I don't recommend going to Origins solely for this perk.

Essen is also a calmer show for me, and it helps that I have locals who demo the games in German. That is a big relief to me and helps make Essen a wonderful show for me. Plus, I'm in Germany. How cool is that. The only thing I keep trying is to increase my presence at the show, getting more of the international audience to want to stop by my booth. It's not easy, but I've had a booth at Essen since 2000, and I know word is spreading every year. I think I have some good releases this year that will increase even further the attendance at my booth. Let's hope sales increase commensurately.

Tom Vasel: What is the feeling in Europe towards American-based board game companies?

Zev Shlasinger: Well, I haven't been spit on at Essen so I think they look upon us positively Actually, I truly don't know to be honest. I deal with the smaller companies usually and they, I assume, like having their games brought here to open them up to a new market. Hmm, perhaps they do look upon us favorably because of that: we get their games to a market they can't get to normally (and I don't mean just through online sales).

Tom Vasel: How do you get in touch with different designers to republish their games (like Frank Nestel and Ursuppe)? Do you contact them, or they contact you?

Zev Shlasinger: I contact them. Through email mostly. Though I'm not afraid to call if I have to, and I do call. I do have to say that there have been several fans who have emailed me to go and try to get particular games for our market: some of the games I am republishing have been because of these emails.

Tom Vasel: As you look back at Z-Man Game's history, what things would you have done differently?

Zev Shlasinger: Hmm, that is a tough question. I really don't know - maybe continued playing games rather than making them? Seriously, I guess I would have looked at doing boardgaming earlier. I'm sure there are other things, little things, but overall I'm happy with what I have accomplished.

Tom Vasel: Okay, well, what would you tell someone thinking of getting into board game publishing?

Zev Shlasinger: Run like hell! Come on, all us publishers are going to tell you that. But if someone really wants to pursue this then I say research the market - go to cons, visit the other publisher websites, talk to retailers - and get a feel for what is out there already and what might be wanting in the market.

Also, find out what print runs really make sense. Don't print 10K units cause the price is good: that is not going to help if you only sell 1000 copies of your game. And don't think that your game is the next Settlers - please set your sites realistically: have people you don't know playtest. Have retailers look at it. Then keep playtesting. Be business smart - if you treat it like a hobby you will lose money and no one will take you seriously. Be professional. Etc. I could go on. Really, I can. Honest.

Tom Vasel: Then by all means, go ahead. Your advice may save someone a lot of money...

Zev Shlasinger: There are so many factors it would be hard to encompass them all and in fact, everything I say is most likely moot: people publish games cause they love it and are not out to make money. Hey, that is cool, and I won't stop you from achieving a dream, but the industry is littered with the corpses of those who published games as a hobby instead of as a business (and believe me, there is a litter of business-oriented companies too!).

I guess the first bit of advice is don't overprint. Pick a reasonable amount and work with that. What is a reasonable amount? I'd say no more than 3000 copies. If you can do less, like 2000, even if you have to put the game together yourself, then try it. Don't do 10,000 units unless you got a purchase order for that amount from some where - which you won't. At 3000 copies, you should be able to survive a dearth of sales or at least not lose your house (or someone else's house if you got an investment from them Be mindful when getting quotes on production to not forget to add freight from the printer to you AND to figure the cost of freight from you to the distributors. This all needs to be looked at to help you determine your retail price. And of course, if you do go through distributors, subtract 60% as that is what you'll get for each sale. So if the game is selling for $25, you'll get around $10.

Then you need to sell it. I say go to cons and get noticed - if the game has good buzz, distributors will come to you. But if you have an in with distributors or are comfortable pitching to them, then by all means approach them. A great game means nothing if you don't have the means to sell it. But this is where you might feel that as a hobby you will rely on word of mouth only. If that is what you want, more power to you.

Remember, too, the German marketplace is different than the American marketplace. Different consumer purchasing patterns. Can't explain it too much I'm afraid, just a perception I have between the marketplaces.

I think the above can go a long way to saving some people money. By no means is this the definitive list and of course many factors may contradict what I've said here. But if you can do a small print run with good production values and art, you have a chance to not lose money and maybe even make money. But if it's just a hobby to you and your dream is for market domination, oh well.

Tom Vasel: Do online stores make up a bulk of game sales for companies such as yours? (like www.funagaingames.com, www.gamefest.com, etc.)

Zev Shlasinger: I really don't know. The reason I don't know is because I don't sell these guys direct, so I have no sales information about them. They buy from my distributors. I'm sure some companies sell direct to these guys, but I'm not privy to that information either.

Tom Vasel: Zev, I've really appreciated you taking the time to answer these questions. Do you have any final thoughts for our readers?

Zev Shlasinger: Hey, thanks for thinking of me for your interview with an optimist series - they are really cool. My final thoughts? I'm very proud of the games that I have published. I love games, and I'm happy to have brought the love of games to hundreds or even thousands of people. I will continue to publish more games for as long as I can. I also look forward to meeting people at cons and playing games. Good gaming everyone!

Tom Vasel
"Real men play board games"
www.tomvasel.com