Eric Jome
United States
Franklin
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
designer
mb
Say you used to play a CCG. Maybe you've got a shoebox of card stowed in the back of your gaming closet. Maybe that CCG was discontinued or perhaps you just lost interest.

If you were to find out that a new game was coming out that was compatible with that old CCG, but now in a non-collectible release structure - what's been called factory sets or LCGs or similar alternative names - would you be more or less interested in such a thing? Would previous engagement and perhaps a modest collection in hand make you more or less likely to pick up a new edition coming out?

In the past, one aspect that has been a bit of a sacred cow with these games was an informal (or formal) self-imposed prohibition on reprinting old material - would it bother you that such a re-release would reprint old things you might have? Would it have to have lots of new things to attract your business? Would you buy it even if it consisted entirely of reprints?

Another common (but not necessarily true or good) bit of wisdom surrounding these games was that they could only make it financially in a collectible, rarity chasing model. I like opening boosters as much as the next guy - fun to see what you got. Is that essential to the nature of these games for you, though? Do you feel that without the entertainment of chasing cards that these games would be a bust?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Cox
United States
Fayetteville
NC
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I would buy it. I would love to see a Star Trek or Netrunner or Vs. System in LCG format. I do not have a complete set of any of these so even if they were reprints or reprints with new cards, I would buy them. As long as I got a play set of the cards in each core set and each expansion pack.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Christopher
United States
Salem
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
In the wonderful game, Bonaparte at Marengo, this is how to get nasty Frenchies out of a village.
mbmbmbmbmb
Nope. I still play "dead" CCGs and would be happy to see those come out as LCGs. However, I don't care what format a CCG, that I no longer play, comes out in. I don't play it because I don't enjoy it, and making it an LCG won't change that.

Perhaps I'm not the target audience for this question.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drew Dallas
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
If you were to find out that a new game was coming out that was compatible with that old CCG, but now in a non-collectible release structure - what's been called factory sets or LCGs or similar alternative names - would you be more or less interested in such a thing?

more
Quote:
Would previous engagement and perhaps a modest collection in hand make you more or less likely to pick up a new edition coming out?


Depends on the game, most of the CCG's I no longer play though is because they died. However if the game came out and allowed CCG era cards to be used without reprinting said CCG cards in the LCG format there is no way I'd play it. Having to hunt down rares from old versions of the game wouldn't be fun.

Quote:
would it bother you that such a re-release would reprint old things you might have?

No
Quote:
Would it have to have lots of new things to attract your business?

Yes and no, I'd be willing to buy some products with mostly reprints, but if new cards didn't come out regularly then I'd likely lose interest.

Quote:
Would you buy it even if it consisted entirely of reprints?

Perhaps if it was a game I've never played, but if I already have the cards sitting around in shoeboxes no I wouldn't buy new ones just for the sake of buying them.

Quote:
Do you feel that without the entertainment of chasing cards that these games would be a bust?



I refuse to contribute any of my money to the randomness of CCG's anymore so even if it was a game I've never played if it was provided in the LCG format I'd consider buying it. So I'd say the randomness and chasing cards element of CCGs actively keeps me from playing them. It also does the same with my friends who I've got hooked on FFG's LCG products but who don't like the randomness of CCG.

I'm currently gladly buying all 3 of FFG's LCGs and their new customer friendly distribution model is wonderful.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
fightcitymayor
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Proprietor and Chairman Emeritus of The Naughty Palace
mb
Stumbling block: When the original format does not mesh well with an LCG-type release schedule. Like how people screamed bloody murder when Lizardmen were made a Neutral accompaniment race in Warhammer:Invasion instead of a full-fledged faction unto themselves.

Let's take a potential example, oh, let me just pick one out of the air... Doomtown. So Doomtown has quite a few Outfits (factions, for those of you uninitiated.) So do you attempt to cram them all in a fixed format, and thus end up with possibly only 1 or 2 cards per outfit in each expansion packet, or do you pare down the Outfits to the "essentials" for story-telling and re-jigger the remaining families into neutral "sub-outfits?"

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Jome
United States
Franklin
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
designer
mb
fightcitymayor wrote:
Let's take a potential example, oh, let me just pick one out of the air... Doomtown.


I see what you did there. perhaps?

In a game with factions, it seems to me you'd have to pick a few and publish around those. Many systems have done a "starter pack" set with fixed distribution and two factions as a way of luring in new people. Seems to me that you'd want to go with something similar to that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drew Dallas
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Well Doomtown has what 10 outfits? Call of Cthulhu has 9 factions now. So it is possible to have many factions, and that is assuming that a new LCG (non FFG) would be using FFG's numbers. So if they wanted to they could make the monthly pack 25 or 30 unique cards instead of 20 like FFG does.

Also assuming a monthly release, 2 cards per faction wouldn't be bad.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
fightcitymayor
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Proprietor and Chairman Emeritus of The Naughty Palace
mb
cosine wrote:
I see what you did there.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

cosine wrote:
In a game with factions, it seems to me you'd have to pick a few and publish around those. Many systems have done a "starter pack" set with fixed distribution and two factions as a way of luring in new people. Seems to me that you'd want to go with something similar to that.
So you're thinking more Summoner Wars 2-faction starter, less Warhammer:Invasion big box 4-faction starter? I can see that.

darksbane wrote:
Well Doomtown has what 10 outfits? Call of Cthulhu has 9 factions now. So it is possible to have many factions, and that is assuming that a new LCG (non FFG) would be using FFG's numbers. So if they wanted to they could make the monthly pack 25 or 30 unique cards instead of 20 like FFG does.
I'm just thinking that Cthulhu had to be kinda shoehorned into the LCG format, since the game inherited the old CCG structure. Looking at what FFG did when they had a chance to start an LCG from scratch was to stake out the position of 4 factions being enough, and 6 being as many as you are ever going to get.

darksbane wrote:
Also assuming a monthly release, 2 cards per faction wouldn't be bad.
This might be a tough sell though. Yes, if I were a completist and knew I was going to pick up every set, then 2 cards per Expansion Pack might be OK. But newer players, and those that focus on just 1 faction might get pretty bored pretty quick if they felt "their side" was being ignored.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Reverend Redd
United States
Bremerton
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd give my right eye to see an LCG version of Decipher's Star Wars Customizable Card Game and Star Trek Customizable Card Game (Second Edition). I didn't get rid of those games because I did not enjoy them - I got rid of them because I don't have anyone to enjoy them with. Dead CCGs where rare-chasing is still necessary (even if it's cheaper and easier than for a live CCG) don't really draw people into playing them with me very well, and I personally don't like things taking up space collecting dust when they can at least be traded, sold, or even given to others who'd put them to good use.

An LCG reprint of old favorites would tickle me in all the right places. I'd even love to see City of Heroes CCG, Highlander: The Card Game, The Spoils, and even Vampire: The Eternal Struggle (a game I do still own cards for) get reprinted in LCG format; they'd surely have a decent time drawing in players, and in most cases, I'd still willingly buy into them myself, perhaps to get updated rulebooks, new bits, dupes of old rares, etc.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Davido
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, I'm 'in between' as far as target audience goes.
1) I NEVER played a CCG until Tanga started offering Firestorm.
What drew me in was the idea of narrative drive-the game is set in a thematically rich universe where the 'play of the cards' tells a story.

2) So I started investigating which CCGs were 'story-driven' and settled upon after Firestorm, Doomtown, Legend of the Burning Sands, and Jyhad/Vampire the Eternal Struggle. Netrunner while not really 'story-driven' is a great enough game to make up for that

3) I did go into 'collecting mode'-e.g. I have complete or nearly complete sets of Firestorm, Doomtown, Legend of the Burning Sands (ep 1-3 only), and Jyhad/VTES (original plus Dark Sovereigns and Ancient Hearts)

Of those, I have sporadically played Firestorm, Doomtown (my most played) and Jyhad/VTES and Netrunner. Not yet played LBS

4) At this point, I'm not looking to 'get into' any other CCGs or LCGs-e.g. I've ignored the FFG issues.

5) If one of the above (e.g. Doomtown) were reissued in LCG format, I would probably 'buy in' as it would now be easier to get others to play. I'd 'binder up' my exemplars and sell off the extras and use the LCG as my play stock. If the reissues were the same cards down to relevant modifiers (flavor text can change, e.g. Doomtown rolling thunder vs. Boot Hill don't affect game play), then I'd sleeve my own and buy LCG packs as needed.

Bottom line-If an LCG brought a 'dead ccg back to life' that I already play, then I'm all for it if it brings more players to the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drew Dallas
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh and since I didn't mention which games I'd like to see back (even though you didn't ask ) I'd love to see Doomtown, City of Heroes (I freckin loved this game), Star Wars CCG, Star Wars TCG, Jedi Knights.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United Kingdom
Great Barford, Bedford
Bedfordshire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb

I would buy an LCG based on Netrunner or Battletech
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Mitchell
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I definitely would. In most cases, the reason why most CCGs broke down over time was: A) investment cost; B) bloat. I should think both of these would be far more manageable in an LCG format. Which means that there would likely be a more enduring player base. Which means I could be still playing my favorite CCGs, were they have used that format.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
howl hollow howl
United States
Hillsboro
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
patton1138 wrote:
Which means that there would likely be a more enduring player base.

In what sense? I cannot judge, because the local AGoT scene dried up even before it went LCG.

For me, it's all about local tournament support. I liked CCGs both for sealed deck, booster draft, and constructed formats. I have no LCG experience, but I'm skeptical they support all of those formats as well as CCGs did, although I can see the advantages of LCGs when it came to constructed.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bwian, just
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I stop playing CCGs when the player base dries up, company support or no. So new releases, LCG or CCG, will only make a difference to me if they bring new players in the door.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
howl hollow howl
United States
Hillsboro
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Bwian wrote:
So new releases, LCG or CCG, will only make a difference to me if they bring new players in the door.

Except in the cases of 7th Sea and Doomtown, I'd probably get them anyway just for the storyline. blush
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Mitchell
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Dave wrote:
patton1138 wrote:
Which means that there would likely be a more enduring player base.

In what sense? I cannot judge, because the local AGoT scene dried up even before it went LCG.


If there is minimal cost required to stay within the scene - both in terms of actual money and in terms of brain-power investment to stay up to speed with changing strategies, rules, &c. - then attrition should be closer to the norm, rather than the rapid decline that most CCGs experience.

If the game can avoid high investment costs and bloat, then the player base will likely not dry up. Those two elements are, in my opinion, the reason why most CCGs have eventually dried up whereas games in other genres generally don't.

Quote:
For me, it's all about local tournament support.


The tournament scene is one thing I never quite 'got'. I don't need a a tournament setting to play and enjoy other games (wargames, Euros, &c.). So I've never quite understood why CCGs are so tournament-centric. I'm perfectly content to play with friends and other gamers, ad hoc.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
howl hollow howl
United States
Hillsboro
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Steven,

I think the key delta between you and me that would apply to both segments of your last reply is that you have a pool of local friends/acquaintances who are also interested in CCGs. In my case, it's not a question of "contentment"; to get more play, I need tournament action to attract players, and for the reasons I mentioned, I believe CCG matches that more than LCG. I can see where LCG would be a better fit for your arrangement.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drew Dallas
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Just throwing this out there, perhaps the reason you need a tournament scene with prizes and such to get people to play CCGs is that they are such a large moneysink. Since LCGs are much cheaper to buy into and keep current with it stands to reason that it is possible you'd be able to get people to play even without a tournament scene.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TS S. Fulk
Sweden
Örebro
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
I only have so much money to spend with 3 kids. So right now I can't even keep up with the Call of Cthulhu LCG. I don't want any more sink holes, although Battletech would sorely tempt me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
howl hollow howl
United States
Hillsboro
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Good theory, but in general my gaming buds aren't playing LCGs either.

My regular 2p gaming parner and I (and before that, my wife and I) have played several CCGs over the years. I have only done tournament play for two CCGs (7th Sea [sealed] and AGoT [all]).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Gagnon
msg tools
In my particular case, moving to an LCG mode wouldn't get me to buy into the game unless it's a CCG I don't have that is highly regarded. I've bought into a lot of dead CCGs because they can be extremely inexpensive and their availability will eventually go away. The games are dead and it's only a matter of time before the remaining stocks are gone. I've recently bought starters and boosters for the old Cthulhu and Game of Thrones CCGs instead of the LCGs because of the better price/card ratio. I've only been buying Magic lately through cheap bulk lots.

I'd still like to see the LCGs come out to keep the older games in play, but I'm not likely going to buy them.

cosine wrote:
In the past, one aspect that has been a bit of a sacred cow with these games was an informal (or formal) self-imposed prohibition on reprinting old material

Has that really been the case? I'm more familiar with Magic and they've reprinted cards ever since the early years of the game. Base sets typically have a high reprint rate from the previous year's set while cards from expansions get added into the base sets every so often.

Hasn't FFG's model shown that a nonrandom model can succeed as well as a rarity chase one?

I think the future of the collectible format, particularly for new games, is to use all the models at the same time. Random boosters remain a good impulse purchase available at many locations whereas LCG expansions can only be found in game stores and online. Maybe the solution is for the nonrandom distribution to be published a year or two after the rare chase tournament formats are released. Magic tournament formats focus on current blocks (but still has some formats that allow all legal cards). That way, the current tournament format is still largely supported while players, that hate the CCG rarity chase, can buy into the game in a nonrandom format.

One interesting thing I learned, from a query in another post, is that LCG gamers are more likely to play the game from one player's cards rather than CCG players that typically play from their own purchased set of cards against another player's deck constructed from their stash. LCG players are more likely to play the game in the same fashion as a boardgame. Even though the LCG and CCG formats are only different in whether the cards are random, there is a different level of preference in play.

You might want to also ask this question in the general gaming forum because the audience in this forum is a bit more skewed to a CCG crowd. There are a lot of former CCG players, that hate the format, reading that forum than this one.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Mitchell
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Customizable Games » Forums » General
Re: Would you be interested in the LCG model for a game you no longer play?
rgagnon wrote:

cosine wrote:
In the past, one aspect that has been a bit of a sacred cow with these games was an informal (or formal) self-imposed prohibition on reprinting old material

Has that really been the case? I'm more familiar with Magic and they've reprinted cards ever since the early years of the game. Base sets typically have a high reprint rate from the previous year's set while cards from expansions get added into the base sets every so often.


Decipher adopted a reprinting model in the latter years of the LotR game. They began to rotate out older blocks, which meant certain must-have cards were no longer legal in standard format. So they began reprinting some of those stand-by cards in the newer releases. So their approach to reprinting was more as a stop-gap, rather than a stand-alone strategy. Not sure how well that aligns with MtG's policy.

But to answer the original question prompting this...

Quote:
would it bother you that such a re-release would reprint old things you might have? Would it have to have lots of new things to attract your business? Would you buy it even if it consisted entirely of reprints?


I probably would NOT buy them if they were straight reprints. There'd have to be something new; otherwise, I can just play with old cards. I could see the benefit of redesigning and streamlining an old game, whose release would contain reprints of old cards, tailored for the new streamlined design.

It wouldn't have to be as extreme a redesign as, say, the Second Edition of the Star Trek game, but I wouldn't re-buy a game, simply because it's been re-branded as an LCG.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.