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Glory to Rome» Forums » Rules

Subject: Taking a jack when there are none rss

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Mikey Moose
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RAW states that a player other than the current leader may choose one of the following actions:

- Take one jack (if available)
- other options

At one point in the game, I wanted to delay the game, but could not follow. I didn't want to draw cards because there were only three and the game would end immediately. The above rule, taken literally, allows me to choose the first option, even if no jack is available to take. Is this what is intended or not?
 
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brian
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I believe you can only take a Jack if it is available. You cannot choose it if there are none to be taken. So you have to select the "other options"
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Jeremiah Lee
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I think I'd read the rule as "the option to take a jack is only valid if there is a jack available".
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Rik Van Horn
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I'm never fond of the suggestion that taking an action in most any game is an option if it's not available.
It just seems counterintuitive.
 
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Tim Seitz
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ReverseMeeple wrote:
RAW states that a player other than the current leader may choose one of the following actions:

- Take one jack (if available)
- other options

At one point in the game, I wanted to delay the game, but could not follow. I didn't want to draw cards because there were only three and the game would end immediately. The above rule, taken literally, allows me to choose the first option, even if no jack is available to take. Is this what is intended or not?

I'm not sure how you figured that, but taken literally, you cannot select the take one jack option if none are available, since it clearly indicates you can only select that option "if available."

However, the rules state that:
Quote:
When you pass, you immediately execute the Thinker role. You may choose ONE of the following actions:

It says "may choose" instead of "must choose," so you are not required to do anything when executing the Thinker role.
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Mikey Moose
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I still disagree about the literal interpretation of the rule, but I hadn't noticed that a player is not required to choose an option. That solves the matter, thank you very much
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Tim Seitz
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Glen Allen
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ReverseMeeple wrote:
I still disagree about the literal interpretation of the rule...

I hereby revoke your "Interested in Language" microbadge. Please return it to the nearest admin.
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Randall Bart
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out4blood wrote:
It says "may choose" instead of "must choose," so you are not required to do anything when executing the Thinker role.

I have to give you that. In other games the words "may choose" might mean you must choose one, but Glory to Rome is permissive. You may do one of the options, but you may pass on all.
 
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Mikey Moose
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out4blood wrote:
ReverseMeeple wrote:
I still disagree about the literal interpretation of the rule...

I hereby revoke your "Interested in Language" microbadge. Please return it to the nearest admin.


I promptly retort by remarking that I am not a native English speaker and also that my interest in language extends to other languages as well! Beware lest I take legal action against your attempt to slander me.

In any case, my main point is this: the condition "(if available)" can refer to one of two optional actions: the player choosing the first of three possible actions, or the player drawing a jack.

If the text was spoken out loud, (thus lacking the list notation of the written version) i.e. "the current leader may choose one of the following actions: take one jack (if available)", I agree that it isn't clear to what the condition refers, however, the written version gives us a hint, as the condition is part of the first option:

Quote:
- Take one jack (if available)


On the contrary, there is no condition associated with choosing one of the three possible actions:

Quote:
the current leader may choose one of the following actions


It's just that, if you choose the first option, you may or may not draw a jack, depending on whether one is available at the time.

I will admit that I also believe that it wasn't intended the way I interpreted it, and that gamer's sense is bound to make you interpret it the way you did, but I still think that taken literally, without analysis, it still says what I am trying to prove. That's all I had to say I'd be glad to read a response, but I don't think there is any point in taking this any further.
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Ed Carter
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Glory to Rome » Forums » Rules
Re: Taking a jack when there are none
ReverseMeeple wrote:
I still disagree about the literal interpretation of the rule, but I hadn't noticed that a player is not required to choose an option. That solves the matter, thank you very much


Yes, I think you're probably right about the "literal" interpretation of the text, although the "intuitive" interpretation would certainly be that you could only take that step if the Jack is available.

TO show you what I think you're seeing and the native speakers are missing, imagine that the rule was a sequential process instead of a 3 way choice.

Then you get:

STEP 1 - Take one Jack (if available)
STEP 2 - Draw as many Orders cards from the draw pile as you need...
STEP 3 - Draw one additional Order card

This would clearly remain a 3 step process, regardless of whether a Jack is available or not, suggesting - at least to me as a math major - that "Take one Jack (if available)" is a operation you can always perform which yields one or no Jacks depending on whether one is on the table.

As mentioned above all the "mays" make the question moot, and in general in a conflict like this I'd follow the intuitive interpretation rather than the literal one but this is glory to rome so I'd have let you get away with it as long as we didn't have "Must" in the rulebook description.

Language is a strange thing - I have yet to meet a native Chinese speaker who can work out what I like about the character yin (印) without serious clues!

Cheers,

Ed Carter
Managing Director
Cambridge Games Factory
www.cambridgegames.com
YES! We'd love to see your game idea
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