$10.00
Recommend
13 
 Thumb up
 Hide
60 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: Official Errata from the Designers rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jason Matthews
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Twilight Struggle » Forums » Rules
Official Errata from the Designers
Map:

1) "Chili" -- The nation of Chili is more commonly known as Chile; we apologize profusely to that beautiful country and traditional US regional ally.

2) Saudi Arabia -- Its stability number should be highlighted in red. It is a battleground country.

3) People's Republic of China -- That's "Republic" not "Replublic" which is some new, scary form of government.

Cards:

1) Defectors (card #103) -- This is not an asterisked event. It should NOT be removed after play as indicated at the bottom of the card.

2) Marshall Plan (card #23) -- Title should be underlined as this card has the lasting game affect of allowing play of NATO.

3) Scoring Summary (card #104)-- The description of "Domination" of a region is incomplete. You are required to have more countries AND MORE BATTLEGROUND COUNTRIES to dominate a region. See rule 10.1 for further elaboration.

4) Cuban Missile Crisis (card #40) -- It is underlined. It should not be. The card does not have effects that carry beyond the current turn. Additionally, the last line of the card "Germany" refers to "West Germany."

Rules: Important Please Note

1) 3.3 Game Setup

Rule 3.3 should read "The U.S. player sets up second, placing a total of 23 Influence markers in the following locations . . . 4 in Australia.

2) [Copy of Player Aid Card] SETUP -- Fourth bullet should read 23 US Influence markers . . . 4 in Australia


Example of Play:

1)Turn 3 Headline Phase -- Korean War is played, but we did not adjust the DEFCON Status. We had hoped to correct the Example of Play, but the correction did not make it to the printers in time. So, the rest of the example is off somewhat, as the DEFCON level should have been 1 lower, prohibiting several actions that occurred subsequently.

2) Turn 4 USSR 4 -- Central American scoring. The example incorrectly states that the US had Presence in Central America. The US player only had 1 Influence Point in Panama. He needed 2 Influence Points to control Panama. Therefore the total victory points is off by 1, it should be USSR 11 here, and increased by one subsequently.

Player Aid Card (front)

1) SETUP -- Fourth bullet should read 23 US Influence markers . . . 4 in Australia

Player Aid Card (back)

1) Card List -- Card #17 "De Gaulee" is misspelled. It should be "De Gaulle." No, this was not a subtle jibe at our French allies.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Björn Hansson
Sweden
Bromma
Stockholm
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
JasonMatthews wrote:
Map:

1) "Chili" -- The nation of Chili is more commonly known as Chile; we apologize profusely to that beautiful country and traditional US regional ally.


...it's the land of very hot food.

Looking forward to the game, thanks for the update!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for posting, and maintaining, this here. You might consider a link to whereever the current list is posted. Assuming you have a place to link to to, of course.

I will check back here as soon as I get my copy, which doesn't look like it will be this week. cry

Note avatar. Is this on the production mapsheet?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Matthews
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
AllenDoum wrote:

Note avatar. Is this on the production mapsheet?


Allen, leaving Reagan off the final map would be like designing a Cold War game without America. Rest assured he's there. And both Ananda and I appreciate the roundabout publicity

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Spangler
United States
Unspecified
Washington
flag msg tools
I have a rules question, or perhaps a rules clarification.

If I play an opponent's event card to get Operation points, the opponent gets the event anyway and the event comes to pass. Does this mean that for the purpose of the event, my opponent is the phasing player?

What happened was this: I was playing a game as the US and a friend was USSR. Defcon had gone down to 2. I played Korean War for op points which meant he, as USSR, got the event and thus starts the Korean War. But the event states that the Defcon is lowered one level, which resulted in nuclear war. I said that he lost the game because since it was his event, he became the phasing player, and the phasing player who causes a nuclear war loses the game. The card is clear that the USSR causes the Korean War.

I also based my reasoning on the fact that in the rules it says that if I play a Headline Card that is my opponent's event, he becomes for the purposes of that event the phasing player. I figured the same would be true for Action Events.

Of course, he denied this and said that I lost since I was the one who played the card in the first place, thereby causing nuclear war.

So, allowing that with nuclear war everyone loses (!), as a rules question, who won the game, my friend or me? Which one of us actually caused Defcon to move from 2 to 1, the one who played the card or the one whose event was triggered by the card?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gary Libby
United States
Middletown
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
To quote Jason Matthews and Michael Harvath from the Twilight Struggle thread over at Consimworld:

"Fault, blame and other esoterica


Michael wrote:

Kevin, if it makes it easier to understand why the American still loses, think of it this way. During the phase of the game where the American player plays his action card, he is always the phasing player. The Russian player may react during this phase to the card the American plays if the card allows/requires it, or the Russian player may get to play the event himself if it is a Russian event card; but as all these things are still considered to happen during the American plays an action card phase, the American is still the phasing player. Thus if the American plays any card that ultimately results in a nuclear war, even if the war is caused by the Russian reaction or the Russian using the event on the card to set off the war, the American, as the phasing player, still loses.

Michael has it exactly. As mentioned about a hundred posts ago, we used the Olympic example because it was one of the most counter-intiutive applications of the rule. However, consider if we had applied the rule the other way given cards like Korean War. If DEFCON was at 2, and the US player played this card for Operations Points, the Soviets would get the event. But guess what, the event drops the DEFCON 1 level. If the phasing player did not lose, regardless of the card, you could force players into nuclear war without their having any control over the situation. So in the Olympics, like the Korean War, the US player is ultimately in the driver's seat. Perhaps not always totally equitable, but certainly clean.

Jason"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremiah Lee
United States
San Francisco
CA
flag msg tools
But please don't call me Jerry.
badge
At one time, I didn't really like Power Grid so Ted made my piece a Power Grid piece.
mbmbmbmbmb
According to everything I've read on ConSimWorld, you lost. The phasing player is whoever played the card that caused nuclear war, regardless of the behavior of the opposing player. That you allowed the other player to take advantage of the card made you lose. This is a situation where you'd like to burn the card in the space race, or hold it over.

There is quite a bit of TS discussion over at consimworld.com. It's not the easiest site to navigate, but click on Forum -> Boardgaming -> Individual Game or Series Discussion -> Era:Contemporary and then TS should be in the list.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
This has been confirmed bby Jason on CSW. The wording of the Headline phase does not apply to regular card play, and may yet be clarified for the Healine phase itself.

If you play the card. You are to blame for ending the game, and lose.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Kindt
United States
San Antonio
TX
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the post. I just ordered the game!

Ben
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Spangler
United States
Unspecified
Washington
flag msg tools
Thanks for the help, everyone, and for directing me to CSW.

David
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Rubin
United States
Trenton
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
>1) Card List -- Card #17 "De Gaulee" is misspelled. It should be "De Gaul." No, this was not a subtle jibe at our French allies.


"De Gaul" may be an improvement over "De Gaulee", but would not "De Gaulle" be even better?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Matthews
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
dirubin wrote:
>1) Card List -- Card #17 "De Gaulee" is misspelled. It should be "De Gaul." No, this was not a subtle jibe at our French allies.


"De Gaul" may be an improvement over "De Gaulee", but would not "De Gaulle" be even better?


Curses, caught insulting France again!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Nesbitt
Canada
Ajax
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
mbmbmbmbmb
Is it just me, or is this amount of errata a bit high for a game of this type? It's still appreciated that the designers would post the information here on BGG, of course.

Any chance of getting replacement cards from GMT that have the correct underlines, asterisks etc? I don't mean a replacement deck, but rather just the 4 cards? I have a hard time convincing myself that drawing on my cards would be a good idea.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Doesn't seem too high.

Plus, only the asterisk on Defectors and the 1-to-4 start on Australia really matter -- the underlining you can derive from card text.

Not enough to warrant printing replacement cards, IMO. (But hope they fix it in the second printing.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Dieringer
United States
Schenectady
New York
flag msg tools
I agree, a few plays and the changes will be second nature and not a big deal. Heh, name a Warfrog title that doesn;t have an error . . . not so easy. The only one I can think of is Byzantium, but I haven;t played it enough to notice.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Kassel
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
chemist wrote:
I agree, a few plays and the changes will be second nature and not a big deal. Heh, name a Warfrog title that doesn;t have an error . . . not so easy. The only one I can think of is Byzantium, but I haven;t played it enough to notice.


The rules say that the game ends when Constantinople is attacked. I believe that should read "attacked successfully".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
First, Constantinople is not a space in Twilight Struggle.

The asterisks on all of the cards are correct. Defectors should not say it is removed, however, because it does not have an asterisk.

Underlines are a different issue. The cards with underlines are those cards that either do or might have effects lasting beyond the current turn. It is best to read the card when the event is played to see if it has any lingering effects, underline or not.

In play, I have just lined up those cards with continuing effects by the side of the board, until the effect ends or is canceled.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Goss
United States
Lindsborg
Kansas
flag msg tools
Once again GMT pushes another half-baked game out the door. Chock full of eratta and play-balance issues which will take several 'living rules' versions to make playable. You would expect higher quality products from the mainstream game publishers. Sadly, the end-user (i.e. the buyer) is one of the final playtesters. Nobody produces an error free game, but GMT's track-record recently has left me with the feeling that deadlines are more important than playtesting and quality control.
Mark
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Mark -

Have you played, or seen, the game, or are you just trolling?

The play balance questions that have arisen so far seem to be due to a combination of rules errors made by the players (when the rules were there), and the fact that it is easier for new players to play the USSR. Some of the same players that were declaring the game broken after their first games are now backing down from that position.

The initial balance perception is caused, IMO, by the fact that this is the first two-player, asymetric, game on this subject. Previous games have been multiplayer and have started players with equal, not historical, resources.

The eratta bothers me, in part because there will be reactions such as yours, and in part because "Replublic" is just an embaressment. But the game is a blast to play if you get beyond that. (Based on two playings. There were at least 6 games going just on Saturday at Conquest LA, more than the playings of most of the scheduled tournaments, and the GMT booth sold out of the copies they brought.)

While wargame companies, such as GMT, have a more relaxed attitude about eratta, at least they provide it on-line and in a timely manner. And this game ROCKS, already.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Wilson
United States
Carsoin
California
flag msg tools
First let me preface my remarks with a few positives:

1) Nobody puts out the quality OR quantity of games that GMT does. NOBODY! They may not be Euros in terms of pieces or boards, but they are great games.

2) NOBODY is as quick to post errata, correction, or clarifications on the internet. Every GMT game has a forum on consimworld with a designer or a producer who actively responds to rules questions. NOBODY offers the type of internet presence that GMT offers.


With that said, I have to agree that GMT needs to slow production slightly in order to catch some of these glitches BEFORE they go out the door. So many great games are being delivered with required errata that occurs almost instantly.

I think rules errors are permissable and understandable. Players today seem to want to "break" the game by finding a loophole. This comes from the CCG end where multiple card combinations tend to make this fairly easy.

I have problem with errors in the initial setup, though. This is not a basic problem hidden deep within rule umpteen thirty-two, but is right there in front of the player from the beginning of the game.

In days past, the issue of computer games with bugs was brought to the attention of the editor at Computer Gaming World magazine. He pointed out that some of the so-called bugs were in fact conflicts with various forms of hardware. With all of the different configurations, some games just plain crashed. They weren't bugs because they only crashed on some systems. No computer game designer should be required to write code that will work on every single configuration. This has improved since those days, with the addition of a system requirement tags on most game boxes, and X-Box and PlayStations don't have the problems found in the earlier days of gaming.

GMT doesn't have to deal with multiple configurations, faulty hard-drives, etc. They need to write and publish correct rules. This is going to require some more serious playtesting, rules reading, etc. than we have seen in the past.

I also want to point out that not everybody has internet access. I read recently that only about 40% of Americans have internet access at home, with another 20-25% having access at work. Not sure how up to date those numbers are, but I know some gamers who don't use the internet. A game should be able to stand as published and should not require the use of the internet. The internet is cool and useful, but should not become a crutch.

I appreciate the time and effort GMT takes to design these games. It is my opinion that even with the errors- Twilight Struggle is a great game. In fact, it ROCKS, as Allen said.


David "the preacher" Wilson

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Matthews
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
abimilech wrote:
First let me preface my remarks with a few positives:

GMT doesn't have to deal with multiple configurations, faulty hard-drives, etc. They need to write and publish correct rules. This is going to require some more serious playtesting, rules reading, etc. than we have seen in the past.

I also want to point out that not everybody has internet access. I read recently that only about 40% of Americans have internet access at home, with another 20-25% having access at work. Not sure how up to date those numbers are, but I know some gamers who don't use the internet. A game should be able to stand as published and should not require the use of the internet. The internet is cool and useful, but should not become a crutch.

I appreciate the time and effort GMT takes to design these games. It is my opinion that even with the errors- Twilight Struggle is a great game. In fact, it ROCKS, as Allen said.


David "the preacher" Wilson



David, I wanted to thank you and Allen for your posts regarding the game. In responding to the earlier post, and some of what you are saying, I want to add a little bit of a reality check on errata and problems with game design. First, as someone in this hobby for a long time, I am not sure I can remember an Avalon Hill game WITHOUT errata. The big difference was of course, most of us never got the errata. We had to mail in a self-addressed stamped evenlope, (or subscribe to the General) and that was only if you had miraculously become aware that there WAS errata. Being lazy slugs, we didn't. We just accepted that we would have to resolve many ambiguities ourselves.

Secondly, (and this is not an excuse, just a reason for the way things are) almost no one works in this hobby as a full-time occupation. That goes for the folks at GMT as well. This is a hobby run by and for hobbyists. Yes, games are not cheap. So, maybe there is a gap between expectations, and what a company of volunteers can produce. Regrettably, this is an outgrowth of the declining number of wargamers, and the shrinking print runs. However, I can personally attest, if game designers (and probably everyone else involved) were compensated at rates equal to time and input, wargames would be totally unaffordable. Because games are largely a labor of love, rather than economic interest, you can still find people willing to design and playtest, and generally keep the hobby alive.

Finally, there is the related reality that GMT (and I am guessing most of the others are virutal companies). They may have an office somewhere, but that is meaningless in terms of game production. I live in DC, Mark Simonitch is somewhere else, the Company is in California, Andy is in Delaware etc. etc. That means, that although the production of a game is a collaborative effort, we are not all in the same room double and triple checking everything to catch errors. I wish we were, but we are not. Obviously, there are software solutions to project managment that have been adopted by corporations to address this same problem, but then we go back to the fact that we are all essentially freelancers. There is no guarantee about what kind of hardware or software we will bring to the table. Were it not for pdf's things would be even harder.

None of this is an excuse. I wish there were not map errors; I wish that we had caught the problem with Australia. As the designer, I wish it more than anyone. So, I am speaking as a consumer -- I've been doing that a lot longer than I have been designing games. We have to understand that we are dealing with a niche hobby, and we have to realize that poses certain limitations on what can be accomplished. Secondly, the errata free era is mythological. It was the derth of instant communications that kept us in errata-free bliss.

Jason
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Wilson
United States
Carsoin
California
flag msg tools
Jason,

I think an errata free game is going to be a very, very, rare animal in the future. The complaint offered by another in this forum is the amount of errata in GMT products that appears immediately following publication seems to be growing and the complaint went on to suggest that the consumers are becoming final playtesters.

While I would NEVER state it as strongly as the original complainer/poster-- I will say that it does seem that the problem is getting WORSE instead of better.

One would think that the virtual office that you mention would help. Files can be quickly rewritten, corrected, saved, prior to publication. I understand that the difficulty of communication via email, phone, etc. rather than face to face can cause problems.

Twilight Struggle is QUITE playable, even with the Australia setup mistake. I haven't played a game in years that didn't leave me wanting to immediately go to the computer and email somebody.

I also understand that there are virtually NO game designers who work solely at designing games. (Outside of possibly Richard Garfield at WOTC or David Williams at Alderac Entertainment)... Each game is a labor of love. Having a bestselling game is not the same as having a bestselling novel.

I think the problem is that the final production gets these products RUSHED out the doora tad too early, pushing the limits of the designers, producers, etc. The P500 may make this happen.

Nobody is looking for errata to disappear. However, I agree with the original poster (despite the hoops GMT jumps through to get the answers, clarifications, and corrections to us) that more care needs to be taken at some step in production to reduce these errors. Failure to minimize future errors can only cause the public to delay purchase of a game until the errata has been published, which would be the definition for some folks of the completion of the game.

Twilight Struggle is a great game. I don't want my remarks to diminish that in any way.

David "the preacher" Wilson
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Schönbohm
Germany
Bad Nauheim
Deutschland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
JasonMatthews wrote:
Map:

1) "Chili" -- The nation of Chili is more commonly known as Chile; we apologize profusely to that beautiful country and traditional US regional ally.

2) Saudi Arabia -- Its stability number should be highlighted in red. It is a battleground country.

3) People's Republic of China -- That's "Republic" not "Replublic" which is some new, scary form of government.



Hi,

what about a pdf-File where these errors are fixed so that you can print out and glue the corrected sections to the board?
Regards
Alex
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Wilson
United States
Carsoin
California
flag msg tools
Rednax wrote:
JasonMatthews wrote:
Map:

1) "Chili" -- The nation of Chili is more commonly known as Chile; we apologize profusely to that beautiful country and traditional US regional ally.

2) Saudi Arabia -- Its stability number should be highlighted in red. It is a battleground country.

3) People's Republic of China -- That's "Republic" not "Replublic" which is some new, scary form of government.



Hi,

what about a pdf-File where these errors are fixed so that you can print out and glue the corrected sections to the board?
Regards
Alex


If those silly spelling errors are so annoying-- Go to the local Office Supply Store and purchase a Sharpie permanent marker. Make corrections as desired.


David "the preacher" Wilson
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Thomas
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The Scoring Summary card omits a clause from 'Domination'.
The clause is the one saying you need more battleground countries than your opponent.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.