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Subject: Lords of Waterdeep - I Wasn't Aware That Berlin Had Coastline rss

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Eric Knauer
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There really is nothing more satisfying than watching the smug look on an opponent's face melt into anger when you stick him with two mandatory quests, back to back.

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If you're the kind of guy who gets off on chortling to yourself when you place a worker unnecessarily simply to be a dick without overtly being a dick, you may not appreciate the fun of just being a dick straight to someone's face, unashamed

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While it's like many a Euro before it, it's way more fun than its predecessors because it embraces something that Ze Germans haven't figured out: fucking over your friends in a passive-aggressive way is not as much fun as looking them in the eye while you're directly fucking them over.


Rather than not figuring it out, I’m pretty sure it’s a deliberate case of the Germans assuming family gaming should not be about making your friends and family angry by fucking them over in dickish ways.

Wonder if "Fuck You Asshole" and "Eat Shit and Die" expansions are in the works?
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Kris Rhodes
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FTR, I am able to juggle my box around at random, spinning and shaking it in all sorts of silly ways, and its contents are wholly undisturbed with the single exception of the 100VP tokens, of which there are only five so no big deal.

Not sure why your box is behaving differently.
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Jim McMahon
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superflypete wrote:
- The box and insert design, while neat looking, is a failboat if you stand it on its side
Do you not know the "Put the used cardboard sprues under the insert to make it snig in the box so things don't spill when tipped" trick?
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jimmcmahon wrote:
superflypete wrote:
- The box and insert design, while neat looking, is a failboat if you stand it on its side
Do you not know the "Put the used cardboard sprues under the insert to make it snig in the box so things don't spill when tipped" trick?


Thank you for the 1980 Holiday Bowl, Jim.
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Michael Caraway
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Plastic hair indeed! That is the second example of questionable hair that I have seen in a game video today. The other was a hideous neck beard that so unnerved me that I couldn't focus on the game being shown.

Necky McBeardigan shall remain nameless. I do enjoy his (Or her) gulp work, but the afghan under the chin has to go! No, it isn't marnaudo. His looks like it belongs there! laugh

I am sorely tempted to buy this game, but I plan to win the BGG contest and have it sent for free!

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Alessandro Maggi
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superflypete wrote:
this game should be at the top of every person who likes Euro style games but who thinks that there's not enough interaction in them.

You sir, made this game got my attention. cool

BTW, great review! I hope I'll be able to try this one out!
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Kris Rhodes
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What does GG stand for?
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M. B. Downey
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superflypete wrote:
Now, the game starts out with very few buildings available, and since there's only one space available in the builder's hall and a maximum of ten spaces to build buildings, you're not going to be doing a hell of a lot of masonry work in any given game.


The ten spaces are not a hard limit, if you can manage to build more than ten buildings using things like intrigue cards.
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Kris Rhodes
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Got it. Thanks for the offer but I confess that though I said "juggle" the box didn't actually leave my hand. I didn't intend to exaggerate, but I was not thinking clearly about the strict meaning of "juggle."

I did spin it and shake it though.
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Kris Rhodes
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Why the heck has the OP and my first reply been reported?
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Eric Knauer
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superflypete wrote:
eknauer wrote:
Quote:
There really is nothing more satisfying than watching the smug look on an opponent's face melt into anger when you stick him with two mandatory quests, back to back.

Quote:
If you're the kind of guy who gets off on chortling to yourself when you place a worker unnecessarily simply to be a dick without overtly being a dick, you may not appreciate the fun of just being a dick straight to someone's face, unashamed

Quote:
While it's like many a Euro before it, it's way more fun than its predecessors because it embraces something that Ze Germans haven't figured out: fucking over your friends in a passive-aggressive way is not as much fun as looking them in the eye while you're directly fucking them over.


Rather than not figuring it out, I’m pretty sure it’s a deliberate case of the Germans assuming family gaming should not be about making your friends and family angry by fucking them over in dickish ways.

Wonder if "Fuck You Asshole" and "Eat Shit and Die" expansions are in the works?


Yeah, those were pre-release expansions, done back in 1942. IIRC, they involved genocide and death chambers. Yeah, Ze Germans are no strangers to direct confrontation, I mean after all, they did start two fucking world wars. But thanks for sharing your smart ass response. It was peachy.

And if your family and friends are such wankers that they can't handle a little bit of confrontation, they're probably the same ones who grew up needing to be told how special they were every day, getting little trophies for pedestrian "achievements".

"Achievement Unlocked: Born a pussy, die a pussy, and live life as a pussy" sounds like the XBOX one a person like that might receive.


Does the family variant come with a “Born a pussy, die a pussy” achievement card that is awarded to the player who comes in last place? Never too young to learn invaluable life lessons for being a last place wanker.
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Jesse Dean
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superflypete wrote:

And the people that do those sorts of things chortle little wankerish congratulatory chortles to themselves, so happy that they were so bloody clever that they could hose their buddy so nonchalantly, with plausible deniability.

Sack up, stick it to them. Look them in the eye. Snake them out. Don't be a pussy.


That seems to be more about how you play the game then the game itself.

I have played Lords of Waterdeep and there is nothing in it that seems to be anymore dickish than the other worker placement games out there. Sure you have intrigue cards that hit all the other players, but even then you have some of this "plausible deniability" since you get some other benefit in the process.

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Kris Rhodes
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I don't understand the need to explain motivations for moves in the first place. You make the move you make. The opponent makes the move they make. Each of you deals with the moves that were made. No understanding of motivation is necessary, or, really, even to be desired.
 
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Eric Knauer
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
superflypete wrote:

And the people that do those sorts of things chortle little wankerish congratulatory chortles to themselves, so happy that they were so bloody clever that they could hose their buddy so nonchalantly, with plausible deniability.

Sack up, stick it to them. Look them in the eye. Snake them out. Don't be a pussy.


That seems to be more about how you play the game then the game itself.


A perspective from a young male teen no doubt.
 
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Eric Knauer
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superflypete wrote:
eknauer wrote:

Does the family variant come with a “Born a pussy, die a pussy” achievement card that is awarded to the player who comes in last place? Never too young to learn invaluable life lessons for being a last place wanker.


It's not being a pussy to lose. It's being a pussy when you totally screw someone over without taking ownership. If you're going to hose someone and do it in a deniable way for the sole purpose of being a dick without having to face up to it, you're a pussy.

If someone hoses you by playing better than you and you act like this guy, you're a big, fat pussy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlarOMLD59A


How satisfying was it flipping that table?
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Jesse Dean
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superflypete wrote:

That's absolutely true. But LoW gives you direct confrontation. Like the assassination Intregue card, for example. There's no denying you just smoked someone's agent. You played it, and it's not like simply putting your worker on the Plinth to deny someone a priest, then being all "oh, I did that because I needed a priest" when they actually didn't.


"I played that because it was the only intrigue card in my hand that actually did anything. Nothing personal."

I do see your point, though. There is a bit more of an opportunity to directly effect other player's game states, where in something like Stone Age you are not going to see that.

Of course, I still think the amount of in your face screwing with other players is actually lower in Lords of Waterdeep rather than something like Caylus, where you can use the Provost to actively mess with specific other people rather than sending out a global effect.
 
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Kris Rhodes
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superflypete wrote:

I set mine on its side, lid on as tight as it gets (which isn't tight). 2 days later, opened it up and the gold coins, some meeples, and some of the building cards were on the bottom of the box. And the VPs. I guess I stretched the box out.


Just to be sure--are you laying the faction mats across the little bits in the middle, and are you putting the instruction booklet under the board? These two things help hold the stuff in tightly.

I just did a methodical test with a spin and a vigorous shaking along each axis and the worst that happened was the 100vp tokens got out (as mentioned above) and six intrigue cards were slightly out of place.

 
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Jesse Dean
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superflypete wrote:
doubtofbuddha wrote:

"I played that because it was the only intrigue card in my hand that actually did anything. Nothing personal."

I do see your point, though. There is a bit more of an opportunity to directly effect other player's game states, where in something like Stone Age you are not going to see that.

Of course, I still think the amount of in your face screwing with other players is actually lower in Lords of Waterdeep rather than something like Caylus, where you can use the Provost to actively mess with specific other people rather than sending out a global effect.


But why would you cop out? "Yeah, that was fun. I stuck it to you with a razor wire condom, cracker!" is much more fun, at least in my crowd. And many people I know appreciate a little trash talking. Games are supposed to be social; I'd rather have someone tell me to fuck off than offer me some grey poupon, so to speak.

And I wouldn't know about Caylus. Never played it. Never even seen it. From the razz it gets at F:AT I'm guessing there's a lot less confrontation than you seem to be intimating, or perhaps there's just a culture of anti-Euro there. Can't imagine that, though...


Oh my quote is not intended as a cop-out, it is more of the sort of response someone could give if they wanted to throw down a cop out about the cards. My group is much more likely to publicly own it in something like Lords of Waterdeep, but they are also likely to own it if it happens in games that do not have as much direct confrontation potential as Lords of Waterdeep.

I am not sure if you would like Caylus or not, it is longer than Lords of Waterdeep and might be something you think overstays your welcome, but essentially as people construct buildings they are placed farther along the board. The provost serves as a hard limit on what buildings can be activated. You can pay (and use an action space) to move the provost around after people have placed their workers to directly deny them the ability to collect resources that they had placed workers for. There is also no way to deny that is exactly what you are doing either. No, "I was just moving it so that I could get some resources." It is always, "I moved it there because you were stupid and out yourself in a position where I could mess with you."
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Mark crane
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Speusippus wrote:
I don't understand the need to explain motivations for moves in the first place. You make the move you make. The opponent makes the move they make. Each of you deals with the moves that were made. No understanding of motivation is necessary, or, really, even to be desired.


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Cracky McCracken
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LOL! Hey Pete, you can come over and have a "Blues Clues" playdate any time you're in Columbus.
 
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David Debien
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superflypete wrote:

Well, I know it's been overdue, but I've had a relapse with this vertigo thing. I almost was to the point where I could go out of the house, but I got an inner ear infection that apparently did even more damage, so now I'm back on the valium and puke pills. FML.


A couple years ago, I suffered permanent and total sudden onset hearing loss in my left ear. I am stone deaf on my left side. That turned out to be the least of my worries, for at the same time, I suffered massive vertigo that landed me in the hospital for a day and for about 5 weeks I was completely incapable of doing more than a weak, stumbling walk from the living room to the bedroom. My doctors told me it would get better quoting "the plasticity of the brain" whatever that's supposed to mean. Anyways, I DID get better, very slowly, over the span of about a year and a half and today the only thing I have to deal with is a moderately high level of tinnitus in my deaf ear and the whole deafness thing itself. It's a drag, but having suffered 18 months of pretty continuous vertigo, I can honestly say, it could have been worse for me now that I am recovered and I can honestly say I am thankful to have lost the hearing but gotten my balance back.

All of this to say, the brain does learn to stop listening to all these crazy reports from your inner ear if it doesn't behave. Give it some time and you will feel better. Do you know if you have been diagnosed with BPPV? If this is the cause of your vertigo, and I suspect it is, there are exercises that can help. When I started these, I reduced the amount of meds I was taking by almost 90% instantly.

If you have not seen an inner ear therapist to have him help you with these exercises:

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/disorders/bppv/bppv.htm...

Either find one now and go see him (he will rock your world) or just study this site and attempt the therapy yourself, although it's better to learn from a pro.

I fired my first two doctors because all they wanted to do was proscribe drugs for the vertigo. My third doctor put me through the above exercise and the first stage of my suffering came to an abrupt end on my first visit.

He did more than the above exercises, we did all kinds of brain training exercises, teaching my brain to take visual queues for balance and distrust what my inner ear keeps telling me.

Last note, the problem with all of the anti-vertigo meds is that they suppress your inner ear. The problem with this is that it's not giving your brain the chance to exercise it's "plasticity" and come to terms with what your damaged inner ear is doing. My last doc (the one who really helped me) discouraged my use of the drugs telling me the less I take the faster my recovery.

I will get off my soapbox now and wish you a speedy recovery. On to my thoughts about Lords of Waterdeep.

superflypete wrote:

Why I Love Diving For Awesome In Waterdeep:
- Great bits and thematic, but dated, art make this a neat game to see on the table
- The design is somewhere between Puerto Rico and Screw Your Neighbor
- Hidden VP conditions via Lord cards really makes this a thinker's game
- A Euro with player interaction? Who'd have thought this existed!

Why Waterdeep May Be Bobbing For Turds:
- The theme and backstory seem really contrived
- The box and insert design, while neat looking, is a failboat if you stand it on its side
- Do not play this with AP-prone players, because there are a lot of decision points


I started to write a long reply to this and then realized I am just going to write my own review here in a few days and I would just be repeating myself, so I will make this short:

LoW has very little in common, IMO, with Puerto Rico. Instead, as others have mentioned, this games is very similar to Caylus.

A lot has been said about how the Intrigue cards make this a Euro with interaction. The intrigue cards to me were a little of a disapointment after all I had heard about them. They either take a cube from an opponent, force them to do a small 3 cube quest (probably the harshest intrigue card) or do something completely unrelated to attacking an opponent.

For a Euro with interaction, play El Grande, not LoW.

On the flipside, I think theme and backstory are the strongest points of this game. I am sure there are legions of Euro gamers who are celebrating the fact that there is now a game in their milieu which is set in the D&D universe.

And finally, I don't think the decisions here are all that complicated either. Placing an agent is usually pretty straight forward. If you have a quest that needs fighters, rogues and clerics and you are missing clerics, then clearly you need to place an agent on a building that gives you clerics.


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Jim Yee
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Thanks for the colorful review. I've been interested in this since the contest opened. Never heard of it before and since it's 2-5 players (instead of 3) it's definitely on my "To get" list, mainly because it's only my wife and I.
 
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jimmcmahon wrote:
superflypete wrote:
- The box and insert design, while neat looking, is a failboat if you stand it on its side
Do you not know the "Put the used cardboard sprues under the insert to make it snig in the box so things don't spill when tipped" trick?


After careful consideration, I tossed my insert. That is to say, I stored it in the back of the house with all my other inserts in case I decide to trade the game away.

To be fair, I am not a fan of inserts at all and the fact that I even considered keeping this one says a lot. In the end, I made my decision after putting the game pieces back into the insert after the second game that made me realize that the insert made putting away the game longer, not faster.

Essentially, its faster to grab all the coins and toss them in their bag than it is to stack them place them carefully in their little niche in the insert. Same goes for all the player bits, the VP counters and the cards.

I did stand the game on its side with components in the insert and they stayed mostly in their places, but there was some definite shifting.

Now that I went with bagging everything, the box is way too big and, worse, the board is smaller than the footprint of the box. This is a little irritating. The box could be about a half inch smaller in every direction and a good bit thinner. Ah well....
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Mark Mitchell
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casualgod wrote:
jimmcmahon wrote:
superflypete wrote:
- The box and insert design, while neat looking, is a failboat if you stand it on its side
Do you not know the "Put the used cardboard sprues under the insert to make it snig in the box so things don't spill when tipped" trick?


After careful consideration, I tossed my insert. That is to say, I stored it in the back of the house with all my other inserts in case I decide to trade the game away.

To be fair, I am not a fan of inserts at all and the fact that I even considered keeping this one says a lot. In the end, I made my decision after putting the game pieces back into the insert after the second game that made me realize that the insert made putting away the game longer, not faster.

Essentially, its faster to grab all the coins and toss them in their bag than it is to stack them place them carefully in their little niche in the insert. Same goes for all the player bits, the VP counters and the cards.

I did stand the game on its side with components in the insert and they stayed mostly in their places, but there was some definite shifting.

Now, that I went with bagging everything, the box is way too big and, worse, the board is smaller than the footprint of the box. This is a little irritating. The box could be about a half inch smaller in every direction and a good bit thinner. Ah well....


I'm thinking along those lines at the moment.
 
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Lords of Waterdeep » Forums » Reviews
Re: Lords of Waterdeep - I Wasn't Aware That Berlin Had Coastline
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