Recommend
11 
 Thumb up
 Hide
194 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [8] | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » BoardGameGeek Related » BGG Suggestions

Subject: Women and Gaming forum needs exclusivity rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: splitting [+] Brouhaha [+] Why_women's_forum [+] lepidopterists [+] [View All]
Robert
United States
West Union
West Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The Women and Gaming forum needs to disallow men posting.

There is no thread there that has been improved by male posts, and they generally distract (at best) from that forum being a place for women to speak to each other.

I remember when the Women and Gaming forum was created. It was made so the otherwise marginalized female population could have a place to not be buried in male gamer talk, so there could be discussion without a flood of men getting involved and distracting from the intended discussion.

Let me be clear in that I disagree with treating women differently and feel that making a "safe place" for them was a bad idea. I felt then, as I do now, that this actually marginalizes women more than treating them as equal members of the site.

However, even worse than that is to create a place that encourages women to have separate discussions, and then specifically sabotages them.

This is what the Women and Gaming forum does. Threads there are always prominent, always receive a lot of attention, and are ALWAYS joined by men who generally do not contribute to the women's discussion. This is more destructive and counterproductive than not having the forum at all. It creates a place of specific hostility and by encouraging women to have discussions there, punishes them for attempting a women-centric discussion.

There is no need for men to post there. The women gamers are perfectly capable of handling their own discussions without male assistance or contributions. If women want to include male gamers in the discussion, they have the whole rest of the site. The only reason the Women and Gaming forum exists is to discourage the otherwise normal male participation.

I see two viable solutions:

1) Make it clear the forum is for women and encourage people to Flag any male post as a rules violation rather than respond to it.

2) Either let people declare their gender as private profile information or mark a set of female-marking microbadges, and make the forum read-only to anyone not marking themselves as women.

(1) is pretty tedious for users and may not work effectively, but doesn't require the site admins to actually do anything other than be honest about that forum.

(2) works well for the forum, but has the downside that women that wish to maintain ambiguity are "outed" if they want to participate there.

Either of those are massively better than what we have now, though. If there is going to be a Women and Gaming forum, then it needs to be a Women and Gaming forum.
10 
 Thumb up
2.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Westland
Michigan
flag msg tools
See my profile to find out what technology has already been fed and added to K-9.
badge
Hard drive is spinning up... WEEEEEEEEEE!
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm just going to pretty much self quote from another thread for this one. Its close enough to what I would only state again regarding the idea of gender exclusivity, or any exclusivity, in the forums.

"Okay... Perhaps you want to clarify. It almost sounds like you are stating the the "Women and Gaming" forum is of no relevance to men, that they should not participate within it, and that it should be closed off to them. I disagree. Some of the issues and gaming content there are, at least I believe to be, of relevance to the male population of this subculture and hobby. As such, I also believe they have just as much right to participate in that forum.

Its the "Women and Gaming" forum, not the "Women's Only Gaming" forum."


"All forums on BGG are open forums, whether individual users like it or not, and I believe that to be for the better, for good reasons to numerous to list, and that people (both men and women) need to accept that obvious reality."
21 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TOKYO Heartbroken
England
York
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
admin
mbmbmbmbmb
xethair wrote:
I remember when the Women and Gaming forum was created. It was made so the otherwise marginalized female population could have a place to not be buried in male gamer talk,


You have a poor memory. It was explicitly not made for any marginalised group, nor to include nor exclude anyone. It was purely for discussing "women and gaming", that is, gaming as it relates to women. It was not made for women only. It was made to discuss an aspect of the hobby, in the same way as the fora for children and classrooms were made.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Boat
United States
Ankeny
Iowa
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd like to be clear, I don't disagree with any major point being made here. Just let me play devil's advocate here for a second.

Would it be considered out of place to have a "Men and Gaming" forum where only men could participate? I don't think women would be clamoring to get in there, but that's possibly because they really are so marginalized in this hobby.

Also, is a "Women and Gaming" forum really any safer for women than a mixed gender forum? I'm sure there's plenty of statistics out there to support the idea that males are the primary internet forum offenders, but again, is this just because women are so marginalized?

As for my opinion on the matter-
If BGG has a strict policy of all forums being open to all kinds of people, I have to wonder if it's worth it to begin with. The intention of the forum is clear, but people should consider the more likely reaction to this sort of forum. It is guaranteed to cause the wrong kind of attention.

Honestly, I didn't know the forum even existed until now and I don't care if it goes on existing. It's too bad people take advantage of such things, but I do agree this is hardly the place for such a forum.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
United States
West Union
West Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I specifically said make the forum read-only to men. Obviously the forum is relevant and useful, and male users should not be excluded from READING the discussions there.

Again, if men are welcome to participate in the discussion, then it should be in another forum. The Women and Gaming forum is there specifically to give women a privileged space away from male participation. That's what was requested, that's what it was discussed being, that's what it was created as. The admins hoped that they could frame it as everyone welcome and get by including a note in the initial announcement that men giving women trouble there would be viewed harshly by mods. Because they didn't commit to what they made, they made something worse than doing nothing. This should be fixed.

I argued against having the separate forum, so I'm pretty sure I know what we were discussing. We lost that battle, so whether the Women and Gaming forum should exist is no longer up for discussion (ie, please don't bring that discussion here). I'm impressed their problematically vague framing of the forum has led people to buy into the nonsense that it is merely to discuss women-related topics, rather than a place for women to talk to women.

What it is now is a disruption to women-women discussion, and a place where women routinely receive hostile or mocking responses more than, and often even before, they get women talking. It is not just failing at its intent, it is doing the opposite, and that is a problem if we are going to call attention to the space by labeling it as being for Women.

Personally, I feel the simple reason for this is that most men know they aren't supposed to be posting there, so men that do post there are more likely to be the types that ignore soft social boundaries. This is why there's needs to be some clearer policy for the forum.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michelle
United States
West Union
West Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree about creating the Women and Gaming forum being counterproductive, but I also feel like it would be good to sometimes be able to have a female oriented discussion without men interfering. There are many threads in the forum that have more men than women posting, and it's been my experience that a lot (not all, but a lot) of the posts made by men are disruptive to the intent of the thread. I wasn't around when the forum was created, but if the intention was to create a safe space for women to talk amongst themselves, then it's definitely not doing that.
20 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
mb
Yeah, and here is the furthest extent to which I'd provided about anything within there: Women in War Gaming 35 Years Hence and I won't 'bother' for anymore either! shake
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Caleb
United States
Seminole
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Can you just imagine the hullabaloo if they created a 'Men Only' section of the forum? Internet Rage Factor 10 for sure. So....what makes this proposal any different?


shake
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
United States
West Union
West Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
cannoneer wrote:
Can you just imagine the hullabaloo if they created a 'Men Only' section of the forum?

Like I said, why BGG needs a separate place for women-women discussion isn't the point. The point is the current implementation and lack of policy is worse than not having such a place at all.

If you're going to do it, do it right. We're adults. We can deal with the complex concept that the women's forum, made at the request of women for women to find and talk to women, should only have women posting there. That just makes sense.

Debating the utility of having the forum will not go anywhere or make anything better.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lance Peterson
United States
Tallahassee
Florida
flag msg tools
schwartz!
badge
All your base are belong to us
mbmbmbmbmb
I can't say I've ever seen any men make inappropriate comments in that forum. There have been some juveniles posting there, but a real man would show the appropriate respect to others in any forum.

Posts can always be flagged and it shouldn't take too many flags for a post to be rolled up for all viewers. Repeat offenders can be reported to the admins and banned from posting on BGG for a period of time.

Perhaps that forum can have just have a lower tolerance for inappropriate posters.

To completely ban males from posting in the Women and Gaming forum is to presume that men would never have anything of substance to contribute, which I find a little hard to believe.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Westland
Michigan
flag msg tools
See my profile to find out what technology has already been fed and added to K-9.
badge
Hard drive is spinning up... WEEEEEEEEEE!
mbmbmbmbmb
xethair wrote:
I specifically said make the forum read-only to men. Obviously the forum is relevant and useful, and male users should not be excluded from READING the discussions there.


Should listen but not be heard... Was this not once said of women. I'm actually a bit shocked by this assertion. Thankfully, being that they are open forums on BGG, everyone may post their opinions. Whether those opinions are liked or not. To administratively silence even one gender is to invite the same in return on the other. It would set a really bad precedent that could then be further expanded upon.


xethair wrote:
Personally, I feel the simple reason for this is that most men know they aren't supposed to be posting there, so men that do post there are more likely to be the types that ignore soft social boundaries. This is why there's needs to be some clearer policy for the forum.


I'm not even sure how to address this. I'm just shaking my head. Its so wonderfully subtle it could almost be overlooked, yet the brush being used to paint with is massive and huge swaths are being applied with it.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
mb
They already ALLOW and encourage 'discrimination' through the *PLONK* system, so, what is ONE MORE then, or less 'hospitable'?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Caleb
United States
Seminole
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BoardGameGeek » Forums » BoardGameGeek Related » BGG Suggestions
Re: Women and Gaming forum needs exclusivity
xethair wrote:
cannoneer wrote:
Can you just imagine the hullabaloo if they created a 'Men Only' section of the forum?


The point is the current implementation and lack of policy is worse than not having such a place at all.


Well, then all the women can just stop posting there. Problem solved.


Gender apartheid FTW!!!!


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Vajcovec
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
xethair wrote:
whether the Women and Gaming forum should exist is no longer up for discussion (ie, please don't bring that discussion here)

xethair wrote:
The point is the current implementation and lack of policy is worse than not having such a place at all.

xethair wrote:
Debating the utility of having the forum will not go anywhere or make anything better.

Hu-wha?? You can't tell people not to discuss something and then claim that as your point. "Here's my point, just don't debate it."
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Sellers
United States
Franklin
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Try again later!
mbmbmbmbmb
MungSu wrote:
I can't say I've ever seen any men make inappropriate comments in that forum. There have been some juveniles posting there, but a real man would show the appropriate respect to others in any forum.

Posts can always be flagged and it shouldn't take too many flags for a post to be rolled up for all viewers. Repeat offenders can be reported to the admins and banned from posting on BGG for a period of time.

Perhaps that forum can have just have a lower tolerance for inappropriate posters.

To completely ban males from posting in the Women and Gaming forum is to presume that men would never have anything of substance to contribute, which I find a little hard to believe.


There are a number of different forums and topics in which you're presented with juvenile posting or comments that are just plain ridiculous - that they appear in the Women and Gaming forum is simply another place for these comments to appear and I don't believe it's because of the gender issue.

Just like any other area of BGG, posts can be reported and removed and that's what should be done in this case. To remove men from posting there doesn't serve any purpose other than to discriminate and remove their presence and while I don't personally post there, it just doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

If there are offensive posts, they should be treated as such and action will be taken - but no area at BGG should be locked or offered as only READ ONLY based on gender - that's just stupid.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Sellers
United States
Franklin
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Try again later!
mbmbmbmbmb
xethair wrote:
cannoneer wrote:
Can you just imagine the hullabaloo if they created a 'Men Only' section of the forum?

Like I said, why BGG needs a separate place for women-women discussion isn't the point. The point is the current implementation and lack of policy is worse than not having such a place at all.

If you're going to do it, do it right. We're adults. We can deal with the complex concept that the women's forum, made at the request of women for women to find and talk to women, should only have women posting there. That just makes sense.

Debating the utility of having the forum will not go anywhere or make anything better.


No, BGG doesn't need a separate place for women-women discussion, nor does it need a place for men-men discussion. There are plenty of sites out there that cater to women's AND men's need on an individualistic, gender based comment system...

And it's not a lack of policy, as the forum is run exactly as BGG policy DICTATES...

I love your statement that "We're adults" and yet you want to treat the women with kid gloves. I've met a lot of great people on this site, many of them women, and I assure you, they can handle the juvenile posting of a few lame people who happen to post in a forum that's not solely intended for women. It's a horribly antiquated idea, frankly, and it has no purpose other than to create a sense of segregation...

And give me a freakin' break - how is it that on one hand you say that "debating the utility of having the forum will no go anywhere or make anything better" when CLEARLY you're taking issue with the way in which the forum works NOW? So what, we're supposed to just agree with your logic and just nod our heads? Whatever.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
United States
West Union
West Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ejtracer wrote:
Should listen but not be heard... Was this not once said of women. I'm actually a bit shocked by this assertion.

Should not interfere when asked. I did not say men should not be allowed to speak. I think you'll find plenty of men speaking around here. I said men should not be allowed to casually interrupt the place created specifically for women to talk to each other, if there is going to be a place for women to specifically talk to each other.

ejtracer wrote:
To administratively silence even one gender is to invite the same in return on the other. It would set a really bad precedent that could then be further expanded upon.

If the men asked for a place to talk to each other without women, and the admins granted that, I would expect similar protection. It's not "silencing" when men shouldn't be getting in the way there in the first place. Do you go to every women's group and demand entry? Do you yell at them for silencing a gender by gathering there? You must be busy.


MungSu wrote:
I can't say I've ever seen any men make inappropriate comments in that forum. There have been some juveniles posting there, but a real man would show the appropriate respect to others in any forum.

A real man would show respect? I've seen threads specifically asking for women to respond go several posts before a woman even adds to the thread. Maybe you feel these unreal men somehow don't count, but this assertion defies reason.

If you've never seen men making inappropriate comments, you simply don't read that forum. Would this recent thread, specifically speaking to women, have been diverted, devolved, and locked if men hadn't interfered with the intended discussion?

MungSu wrote:
Posts can always be flagged and it shouldn't take too many flags for a post to be rolled up for all viewers.

If people *only* flagged inappropriate male comments, and felt free to do so proactively, then it might help. That was one of my suggestions above. People don't though, because the policy was never even that clear, and we aren't allowed to discuss flagging in-thread. Also, that method takes precious time to filter out the male interference.

MungSu wrote:
Repeat offenders can be reported to the admins and banned from posting on BGG for a period of time.

Why bother, when it is easier to just make the forum what it should be?

MungSu wrote:
Perhaps that forum can have just have a lower tolerance for inappropriate posters.

It's supposed to, based on the message when it was created, but even then it was at "men harassing women" and not "men interfering in women's threads". I think it should at least be the default by policy to X a male post there. It'd just be simpler for everyone if guys weren't posting at all, but we can't get that by polite request.

Although, even just giving the forum a summary description like almost every other forum has would be helpful. Something to make it clear that it is intended for women-women discussion. It's the most ambiguously named forum.

Quote:
To completely ban males from posting in the Women and Gaming forum is to presume that men would never have anything of substance to contribute, which I find a little hard to believe.

This is a ridiculous caricature. The forum was created for women to find and talk to each other, specifically because of the male dominance of the site in general. That still appears to be its main use, based on the threads. It never had anything to do with whether men had things worth saying to women. Women wanted some peace and somewhere they could see each other with less interference.

I could just as easily caricature your response saying that to force men to be allowed in the discussions is to presume that women can't competently discuss a topic without male assistance. Not a useful tack.

[cosmetic edits for clarity]
4 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
United States
West Union
West Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Laladien wrote:
No, BGG doesn't need a separate place for women-women discussion, nor does it need a place for men-men discussion.

I agree. But such a place was requested, and such a place was -- kind of -- granted.

Quote:
I love your statement that "We're adults" and yet you want to treat the women with kid gloves.

No, *I* want women to be integrated as people/gamers just like men have to be and not "given" a separate "safe" sandbox to play with each other in. This is not about whether they should have a forum.

Quote:
I've met a lot of great people on this site, many of them women, and I assure you, they can handle the juvenile posting of a few lame people who happen to post in a forum that's not solely intended for women.

Read the thread I linked to above. Imagine that thread stripped of its male posts. Don't tell me I'm even slightly blaming women for what happened there. Also, just because women can clean up a mess doesn't mean they should have to take time away from their gaming discussions to do so.

Quote:
And give me a freakin' break - how is it that on one hand you say that "debating the utility of having the forum will no go anywhere or make anything better" when CLEARLY you're taking issue with the way in which the forum works NOW? So what, we're supposed to just agree with your logic and just nod our heads? Whatever.

Because the forum does a bad job of what it was set up to do, and because I have read more than enough of the debate on whether it should be there or do that. That debate has never gone anywhere. You can find mountains of it in other threads. Really. Let's accept it as something people wanted and try to make it nice, rather than limp along while periodically fighting about whether it should have been done.

GIVEN that we DO have this place created to for women to talk to other women gamers outside the general site, we should not accept the current workings. If you want to argue the current workings and its contributions to or interference with those goals, maybe we can get somewhere, but my suggestion is from the standpoint of this is a thing that was asked for and granted for reasons which are not being served by the current implementation.

If the women were granted a place to talk amongst themselves, that would look different than just what you get from flagging violations of the normal forum rules. Different in a lot of ways. Since this was requested, they should be given this instead of this half-baked counterproductive substitute.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
mb
I have to wonder what manner of 'supposedly' MAN felt warranted on even delving within such to begin WITH, other than through an explicit 'invite'? If these provided some well meant contra-view upon something, then certainly, while otherwise, then just don't!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's kinda funny. First its men asking for the justification of the women and gaming forum, and now we have a man saying the ladies need to be left alone.

Here's a novel idea. Let's let the ladies decide.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michelle
United States
West Union
West Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
COMPNOR wrote:
Here's a novel idea. Let's let the ladies decide.

Do I, and the aforementioned ladies who requested the Women and Gaming forum, not count?
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
violetchimaera wrote:
COMPNOR wrote:
Here's a novel idea. Let's let the ladies decide.

Do I, and the aforementioned ladies who requested the Women and Gaming forum, not count?


So you requested that the Women and Gaming forum be exclusive? Just asking, because that's what I was getting at. If that's how you want it, fine.

But I think guys need to stop championing causes or being that white knight.

And at this point, wouldn't a guild be the best course of action for a "Women's Only - Yes we mean WOMEN ONLY" Club?

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
mb
kiss "The Geek Girls Guild"; while 'Bubba' there can 'rep' the "Lollypops" one! robot
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michelle
United States
West Union
West Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
COMPNOR wrote:
So you requested that the Women and Gaming forum be exclusive?

I think it was pretty clear in my earlier post that I'd like to have the option.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ms. Shug
United States
Round Rock
TX
flag msg tools
Got my eye on you!
mbmbmbmbmb
I appreciate the spirit of the OP's suggestion though I don't know if it's the best solution. It certainly is tiresome to see Women and Gaming posts continually become lightning rods for every whiny man with an axe to grind. But I'm an idealist. I just wish these particular men would grow up and quit derailing discussions. It IS a huge distraction from gaming topics.
15 
 Thumb up
0.06
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [8] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.