Archive for Jason White
-
Jason White
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
-
For the full blog, check out anextrapoint.blogspot.com
On the weekend of February 22-24, I was lucky enough to get the chance to go to Prezcon again this year. I have often thought of changing my "off-season con" to something else. I would like to support my buddy Ric and go to the Block Party in the Louisville area, but it's so far away for an extended weekend. I would like to go to Winter Offensive, but I'm so rusty at ASL. I would like to go to WAM, but there just doesn't seem to be anything there that's really compelling.
And this year, around November, the cry to go to Charlottesville began. Owen was old enough to go and was excited about it. The Sudys would be there. Tom the Tinker was going to be there. Joe was going to be there. Heck, even Scott might come. And, of course, TJ had moved his permanent home there last summer and was even suggesting that I stay at his place. So I commited!
Of course, as seems to be the case in my life these days, as soon as I commit, I pay a price. TJ was the first to drop. He had a business meeting and wouldn't be able to make it. Joe dropped. Even Owen dropped, and he's my son! But a reserved room and the chance to play with Tom the Tinker and the Sudys, not to mention whoever else migh tbere, enticed me to keep my commitment. And then, about a week and a half before departure, Paul, one of my newest gaming buddies, sent an email asking when we would all be there. Things started to fall into place.
I arrived on the night of the 23rd. I rushed out of school in order to make it with as much time as possible. I had time all right. Time to see that Kevin and AJ Sudy. Time to watch Paul and his opponent set up their game of Breakout Normandy. And time to watch Tom the Tinker play his warm-up game of Eastfront. Well, at least it gave me time to watch some back episodes of Mad Men on my iPad.
I was also able to begin scheduling some games. The Sudys and I agreed to meet on Friday morning and I finally got the chance to play. We played Theos, AJ's prototype. In this game, each player represents a world religion spreading its influence across the world. In our particular game, I was Hinduism, Kevin was Buddhism and AJ was Islam. The game involves some interesting mechanics. You have three main characteristics, "Lore" (I believe - basically the idea of the central tenets/text of the faith), "Faith" (your ability to spread within a territory that you already occupy), and "Missionary" (Okay, get your mind out of the gutter. It's the ability to spread your faith around the world). Each of these acts as a different currency, allowing you to perform certain actions and controllling the way you spread. At this point, the prototype also has a multi-option track where you gained cetain bunuses (more missionary points, a higher ship value, more VP). You cold spend your points on this track or use them to spread on the map. It was surprisingly quick for a game that resembled History of the World. There may have been a brief balance issue with Islam, especially as Islam had to compete with Hinduisim and Buddhism. We talked out some options about changing gameplay then headed over the vendors.
The pickings were sparse at the vendors. I ended up only buying one game (!). I feel bad, like I let down my collector brethren, but what can you do? I noticed at the Z-Man games booth the game Junta:Viva la Revolucion! As I turned the game back and forth in my hand, admiring its design and pricetag, the clerk in the Z-Man booth said "Oh, that game -- it's basically a beer and pretzels versions of Junta." WHAT? I blinked twice. Junta WAS a beer and pretzels game.It was kind of like saying "It's a Will Ferrell movie, but this one is a comedy." I couldn't quite wrap my brain around it, but I was good buying it anyway.
So I did get to play the game a couple of times during the con. It was light. It was more beer and pretzels than the original. Really, they removed the wargaming element. And what did we play Junta for? It was for the betrayals, the fun of illegally stashing away your embezzlements from the banana republic and the fun of trying to catch each other off guard for an assassination. While stashing away the ill-gotten gains has been changed thematically from squirreling it away in a swiss bank account in the original to an investment system in the current game, those key elements remained. Honestly, the wargaming component of the original Junta was overblown. It actually could cause the game to crawl (I remember the last time I played the game we launched a coup every turn. It was brutal and it pretty much made the game dead to me). So, this is light. It's not a great game, but it's not that bad. We played it with three players, which caused some weirdness with assassinations, but I would like to play it again with more. It is filler material, not the main game of the night, but it will probably find my table again.
I also got to play the new Academy Games offering, 1812: Clash for a Continent. Walking away from my disappointing excursion to the vendors, we encountered a "bonus vendor" in the hotel atrium. I'm not sure who exactly the booth belonged to (sorry, vendor!), but it catered to Academy Games products and Defenders of the Realm and its expansions. The best part about this particular vendor was its stragegically placed location next to the open gaming areas.
I was probably going to buy 1812: Clash for a Continent any way. The game looked somewhat interesting. It was a hybrid (one of my weak spots these days). And, of course, I have an addiction to buying games. But I stayed in a state of denial about this purchase just long enough for one of the salespeople at the booth to offer to teach 1812 to me and my friends, Kevin and AJ.
Not a bad game! The game is a standard, Risk-style, move and shoot game. EXCEPT each army involved has its own special dice - the Brits are good at killing and not running away, the French are good at killing, but may run away, and the militia might kill, but are more likely to run away. Oh, and the game is card driven. EXCEPT you will play every card in your deck once and only once. And did I mention that the game could be played with 2, 3, 4, or 5 players? There has been some criticism about how effective a multiplayer game it is because you play in teams. But I have played it with 3 and 4 players, and it seemed to work fine, certainly no more awkwardly than Middle Earth Quest. Bottom line: the game played fast and had some interesting decisions to it. It's not an incredible game, but it is definitely one I will play again.
Speaking of Middle Earth Quest, Kevin and I were able to squeeze in two games at Prezcon. We introduced a newbie to the game (sorry again, forgot your name and should have recorded it somewhere). He went running off to the vendors to buy his own copy of the game, so I guess you could say it was a success. We seem to be seeing a rise in the powers of darkness lately, with Sauron becoming more and more difficult to defeat. I think it just means that we'll adjust the way we play the heroes in the game and the game will balance itself again. Of course, if it ends up being a game where Sauron wins most of the time and the heroes are scrambling to prevent the triumph of evil, that seems to work thematically so it's okay with me.
The last game I want to report on is my third play of FAB: Sicily. This was an extra cool session for two reasons. Reason One: I got to play with Rick Young. Rick is a good friend with whom I love to play and with whom I don't get enough chances to play. Rick convinced me that Point 2 Point is NOT dead and that people would still like to hear from me, even if it were twice a year (a post-WBC year in review and a Holiday Special). I might be able to do that. I'll at least try it for Rick's sake.
The second reason was I finally played it right! That's not to say my son and I were playing it completely randomly or anything. Far from it. The majority of the game we were playing correctly. But there still were minor things we had been doing wrong, and Rick was able to point those out during the course of play. Needless to say, Rick's Allied forces crushed my Axis ones, but it was not immediate and it was fun to play. Verdict on FAB: Sicily? It's a good one. It's its own game, like all Rick Young games. This one focuses more on choosing invasion sites and using your airborne troops effectively and less on getting your armor to where it can exploit (which is one of the main focal points of FAB:Bulge).
So that wraps up the first in what I hope will be a series of blog posts in the coming weeks. I needed to get the Prezcon AAR out of the way. I am sorry it took so long. Bottom line on Prezcon: it's small, but a good time. There is something of a personal touch to it, which I love, and the venue is one of the nicest I have ever been in for a con.
Stay tuned and subscribe at anextrapoint.blogspot.com. I have some more to write, including: a series of zombie posts (another on the AMC series, one on Romero's movie series, and one on boardgaming with zombies - which I'll crosspost to BGG), one on an 80's fantasy television series I've been re-watching, and more on gaming - not sure what this one will be, maybe on the disappointment of hex and counter gaming (say it ain't so!).
-
Jason White
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
-
For the full blog, please follow at http://anextrapoint.blogspot.com.
The evolution of the Card Driven Wargame (CDG) continues.
I have played A Few Acres of Snow approximately ten times since I bought it about a week before the WBC. Through about seven of these games, I was beginning to feel that it could be one of my favorite games. Then I learned of the Killer Strategy (not too hard to stumble upon, mind you), and I must confess that trying to "unbreak" the game in the last few plays has been a bit of drudgery. But now Martin Wallace has released his rules changes and I am hopeful of this once again becoming a gem in my collection.
Even if the rules revisions cannot fix the game, it is a fascinating game in what it represents: the next stage of the evolution of the CDG. In particular, it marks a further evolution in a key aspect of CDGs, the ability to manage the deck from which you draw.
Contrary from what some people think, I actually do NOT like randomness in games. I'll post more on this at another time, but let's just say this for now: I like randomness only if it can be managed at some level.
In CDGs, this many times takes the form of deck management.
The first CDGs had very little of deck management. There was one deck, and both sides drew from it. In We the People (now Washington's War), each card was either an event or a number of operations points. In Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage, this evolved into cards that had both Ops points AND an event. But drawing from a common deck could very easily leave you with a session where your opponent received all of your key events.
A case in point would be Wilderness War from GMT Games. I play the tournament scenario, and, in this scenario, a key event is the "Highlanders" card which allows the British player to receive four more of the most powerful unit in the game, the Highlanders, along with two leaders (one of which is the ultra-poweful Wolfe). There are "smaller Highlanders" cards that allow the drawing of one of these units along with one of these leaders, but the "big Highlanders" card, as it has come to be called, can be a game changer. It is easy to imagine a scenario where this important card cycles through to the French player, he plays it for Operations, then, after a reshuffle, it again ends up with the French player. The odds are basically 50/50 each time, and, as we remember from that Stats class in college (the class designed for gamers), the odds that the French player is the only one to see the card is approximately (the random events causing a reshuffle affect this) 1 in 4. We can see this in Hannibal with the overly powerful Messenger Intercepted card, which allows you to steal an opponent's card and make it your own, giving you another event vs. ops choice, but, more importantly, giving you effectively two more action than your opponent. And after it is played, there is a 50/50 chance that the same player could get the same event back in his hand. The common deck needed some kind of improvement.
Paths of Glory greatly improved the ability to manage the chaos in your deck. It actually is fairly brilliant and offers a system that, while not used very often, is one that may not have been surpassed until A Few Acres of Snow (and that may be overstating it - Paths of Glory's system may actually be superior to that of A Few Acres when all is said and done).
With Paths of Gory, each side had his own deck. This considerably increased the likelihood that your events would come up (I would say that it meant seeing your events was a certainty, but I suppose with poor management, key events may never come up). And it meant that you would not end up with a handful of your opponent's events.
Your deck was also divided into sub-decks. You now had your own Mobilization deck, along with a Limited War and Total War deck. The importance of this cannot be overstated. This was a rather direct way to simulate the escalating resources along with the escalating obligations of an escalating war. The goal of most players was to get to Total War as fast as possible. This was where the really powerful events were, and the larger operations cards started to appear in the Limited War decks. But you had to survive and fight while navigating through the less powerful Mobilization deck.
Also, this game was the first to feature significant culling of the deck as a player option. A number of events, including reinforcement cards, were discarded upon use. Other 2 Ops events were removed from play after use. This led to the development of a tactic called "cleaning your deck," where you understood what events were important to play as events and what events it was important just to remove from your deck. If you were skillfull at this, you saw certain 3, 4, and 5 Ops cards again and again, and drag was not created in your hand by the continuous drawing of 2 Ops cards.
In a lot of ways, this marks the beginning of the deck-building game. It was rather simplistic, with a War Status value that increased as certain events were played. As this War Status hit certain levels, new cards were shuffled into your deck. Your deck became larger as the game continued. But you also thinned your deck whenever possible, and chose carefully what to play as events and what to play as Ops. So, in the end, the most effective deck was the thin one where all weak cards had been culled and only a series of strong cards that you kept re-drawing remained. That sounds awfully similar to deck-building to me.
I'm not sure that this deck management system has ever been surpassed. Heck, I would say it hasn't even been matched. People have tried and tried, but the fine balance of what each deck and sub-deck should have, along with the relative importance of each event, has been something of a nightmare, it seems. It has led to some interesting games, but many of them seem to have flaws that, for whatever reason, Paths of Glory has avoided.
After Paths of Glory, there was very little innovation. The most remarkable was the "split ops" system that Napoleonic Wars employed and which grew into the system used by the very successful Here I Stand. But very little has been done in regards to deck management. Twilight Struggle has an interesting shared deck system where there are sub-decks and where, when you receive your opponent's events, you use the Ops and your opponent gets the event. This leads to an interesting management strategy where you play your own events for Ops so that they will, at some point, end up in your opponent's hand where he will be forced to allow you to play your own event.
It should also be noted that, as far as deck management goes, The Hammer of the Scots system of Columbia Games actually takes it a step backwards. In their system, you have a small (25 card) shared deck with 5 or so events. Also, in this system, each card represents an operations value OR an event, not both. It goes back to the We The People system in many ways but leaves us even more in the throws of randomness where I could have, turn after turn, a fist full of events or a fist full of 1's, while my opponent in moving his armies all over the board. The game works, and works well, but it is in spite of its overly simplistic deck management system.
But I digress...
For me, the next interesting refinement in deck management in wargames is Martin Wallace's A Few Acres of Snow. I won't debate whether it is a wargame or not; I certainly enjoy it and find the conflict satisfying, which is enough for me. What I really find interesting, though, is the system of deck management that the game uses. Wallace's design really doesn't trace a direct lineage with the CDG system that Herman developed. It draws its inspiration and lineage from eurogame mechanics, in particular the "deck-building" mechanism used in a game like Dominion.
Wallace has each player start with a minimal deck. Every turn, each player has two actions, which may use some, all, or none of the cards in his hand. The player then replenishes the deck up to his hand of five. The cards in this very small deck appear again and again, but they are limited in possibility and in power.
But each player has two larger decks which can be added, piece by piece, into his personal playing deck. We are already beyond We the People at this point in that each player has his own two decks to draw from (along with a very small shared deck). Add to this the characteristics of the two decks that each player has. Each player has an "empire" deck, where such imperial resources as military units, native american recruits, and even a governor can be brought into your playing deck. As an action, you simply add one of these cards to your deck (sometimes paying a cost in gold).
The second deck is a deck of locations. As you build a settlement in a location, you gain that card's location card. Most cards will allow you the possibility of exploring a few new locations. Many times, these location cards will give you more resources. Sometimes, it may be a "bateau" symbol allowing you to populate further down the map's rivers. Sometimes, it may be a ship, giving you a number of possibilities including piracy. Sometimes, it might be a military unit. Many locations give you multiple options of how to use it in a particular turn.
Sometimes, the location card may not be useful at all.
Two interesting advancements are presented here. The first is the idea of choice. You are choosing, through settlement of a location or simply purchasing an empire card, what you are adding to your deck. Each choice defines your power, rather than having your power defined by the dictated next deck in line. Broadly speaking, each card you choose pushes you down a path of being an offensive military power, a Native American-allied raider, or an explorer and settler. You decide which military units you add to your deck, defensive units such as fortresses and militia or offensive units such as infantry.
And every choice you make causes your deck to become thicker. This is the second advancement. As your empire grows, if you're not careful, it will become bloated. You may end up having to add useless cards because the location had some other use for you (like a spot from which to launch raids). But while the location is useful, the card may becomes dross in your deck and hand. It models very nicely the effect of having a bloated, growing empire actually limit its own power through its inability to streamline operations. It also models nicely the escalation of war where, with enough escalation, your decisions become dictated by the resources that you have made available. You get into conflicts and situations that you cannot get out of because of the way that your empire expanded.
With these deck-building mechanics, A Few Acres of Snow represents the next logical step in the evolution of card driven wargames. The cards give the players the difficult choices we all crave. They also model very nicely the escalation of responsibility that comes along with an escalation of power. The idea of "a clean deck," discussed so often in Paths of Glory, is a key function in A Few Acres of Snow. Every card you add to your deck causes you to have to think about its thickness. More cards (the Governor or the Trader, for instance) will be added to your deck in order to streamline it. And, of course, each choice you make to streamline your deck involves taking an action in order to do so.
I cannot wait to see how else the deck-building idea can be incorporated into wargames. It means choice in how you build your power base and it means there is no one, in the end, to blame but yourself when your power structure becomes bloated and inefficient. A year ago, I could have written this blog entry and declared the Card Driven Wargame dead. Today, Martin Wallace and A Few Acres of Snow (with a nod to Dominion) have breathed new life and new possibilities into it.
-
Jason White
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
-
For the full blog, please follow at http://anextrapoint.blogspot.com.
It is with mixed emotions that I start this blog. It means a transition for my podcast, Point 2 Point. From this point forward, P2P will be periodic news and commentary. This will be where I open up and talk about the things I love.
So -- why this transition? A few reasons:
1. P2P had run its course for me. I have said most of what I felt I needed to say. I would have liked to have performed some more interviews, but the coordination of people's schedules (especially mine) and the technological triangulation required for an interview really has become trying.
2. Is Point 2 Point really Point 2 Point without Scott? The short answer is no. I think I did a good job carrying the show through 2011 solo, but it really wasn't the same. Scott came over for our "Micropseudocon 2011," and it was great. He talked trash. He laughed at me (and with me). He won a game or two. He criticized a game and called it "unplayable" (in this case, Middle Earth Quest). He was, in short, everything that made me choose him as a co-host all those years ago. The banter was more fun to record and more fun to participate in than sitting and trying to keep some kind of solo, artificial "dialogue"going. So, I tried, but there really is no Point 2 Point without Scott.
3. I want to talk about things other than games. I love a number of things in my life, and I like to talk about them. And Point 2 Point was about wargames. Period. As it should have been. Here, people can read my thoughts, comment on them and respond to them (hopefully), and ignore the things that don't interest them. And I can express my views on all of the topics that interest me: wargames, science fiction and fantasy, teaching, writing, games other than wargames, role-playing, game design, the English Premier League team Arsenal, and the Virginia Tech Hokies, among other things. So, read what interests you (and, hopefully, a bit more), comment on it, and ignore the rest.
So, what will this blog be? It will be all of the above and more. It will not, at this point, be regular, but I foresee being able to write more than I was able to record (three kids, two of them teenagers -- need I say more?).
-
Jason White
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
-
Cross posted from Podcasts and Blogs Forum:
direct download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/point2point/Point_2_Point_49.mp3
In this ultramegasupersized episode, Jason interviews two figures from Historicon. The first is Walt O'Hara, who was kind enough to extend the invite to Jason and who also just happens to be the man behind the "Historical Simulations" category of the annual Games 100 (from Games Magazine). The second is convention director Bob Giglio, who has a long history with miniatures wargaming and Historicon (among other cons). Jason gets to explore that other side of wargaming, miniatures wargaming, through these interviews. Chad weighs in on the "knife-fight" that is King Phillip's War. Jason also shares all the news that fit to -- okay, most of the news that's -- All right, honestly, he covers the stories he finds interesting. Packed in with this chock-full episode are Jason and Chad's takes on the upcoming WBC, and why Jason is calling himself "Open-Gaming Guy" this summer. And what is this fascination with Middle Earth Quest?
-
Jason White
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
-
(cross-posted from Podcasts and Blogs Forum)
He did it! In his ongoing challenge to himself to publish 12 podcasts in 2011, Jason is back on track with his SECOND episode in June (just barely)! In this slightly truncated episode, Chad offers a review of Lock 'n Load's White Star Rising in his (newly named!) segment. Jason gives some wargaming news and responds to some feedback. He then discusses his recent gaming and the surprisingly limited wargaming at Pseudocon this year. He also offers his first impression of Runewars and dodges the question of "what is a wargame?" He also talks about Dominant Species and Middle Earth Quest, which he in no way considers wargames. Has the wargaming podcaster gone soft? Judge for yourself!
http://traffic.libsyn.com/point2point/Point_2_Point_48.mp3
-
Jason White
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
-
Well, for those of you waiting for Episode 48 to come out, good news! I should have more material after this weekend!
Yep, it's time for that invasion of multiplayer gaming goodness that is known as Pseudocon. The few and the proud who have been able to make it to P-con know (and may have been disappointed to learn) that, honestly, it's more about the multiplayer than it is about the wargame. Lots of light gaming, some euros, more hybrids, but very few wargames actually make it through. For example, here is a rundown of what I hope to play this weekend:
Middle Earth Quest (fun, but by no means a wargame)
Dominant Species (not a wargame)
Runewars (not listed under wargames at BGG, but really is at heart a wargame, just a fantasy one - I know, I know the whole "is it a wargame?" is tiresome. I say, if it wants to be, let it in. And with a title like RuneWARS, I think it wants in!)
Battlestar Galactica (umm...again, not a wargame)
Oh well, maybe we'll work in a game of Napoleonic Wars, Struggle of Empires (our annual game, probably more hybrid than wargame) or some two player goodness.
Any way, raise a dicetower in our honor this weekend and pray for my wargaming soul.
I'm not too worried, I've been getting lots of gaming in lately, especially PBEM (although the end of school has considerably slowed down my pace). And you never know what the Pcon may bring.
Update during/after the con!
Jason
-
Jason White
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
-
This episode finds another guest reviewer submitting a segment; Chad, better known as Grimnir, offers a discussion of the Command and Colors system as a whole, along with a review of Command and Colors: Napoleonics. Jason also works through some feedback and news and discusses the games he's been playing lately. Jason also discusses an interesting geeklist that changes the lens through which we look at wargame rankings. This inspires him to look at some other ways of looking at the data. Which list best represents the best in wargaming? Be sure to check out this month's poll and offer your opinion.
http://point2point.libsyn.com
| |
Your Answer |
|
Vote Percent |
Vote Count |
|
a. Wargame rankings from BGG.
|
|
|
50.0% |
17
|
|
b. David Dockter's "Death to the Cult of the New" Geeklist.
|
|
|
38.2% |
13
|
|
c. Wargames ranked by "geek rating," includes expansions.
|
|
|
8.8% |
3
|
|
d. Wargames ranked in the general BGG game list.
|
|
|
2.9% |
1
|
|
Voters |
34 |
This poll is now closed.
34 answers
Closes: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:00 am
-
Jason White
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
-
In this episode, Jason goes through some feedback, opens the package from Your Move Games, and focuses on a smaller publisher for his pre-order spotlight. He also has some wargaming news, good and bad, and goes through some feedback. Add to this the standard games played, poll results and other fun at the end of the episode, and you get the best two hours in wargaming. Other than gaming itself, of course.
Remember! Still looking for contest entries (contest extended to April 15 - get it done with your taxes).
Send entries to: point2pointpodcast@gmail.com
This episode's poll:
| |
Your Answer |
|
Vote Percent |
Vote Count |
|
quick setup?
|
|
|
41.5% |
22
|
|
quick cleanup?
|
|
|
3.8% |
2
|
|
neither; it's the time in between setup and cleanup that counts.
|
|
|
54.7% |
29
|
|
Voters |
53 |
This poll is now closed.
53 answers
Closes: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:00 am
Download podcast at: http://point2point.libsyn.com
-
Jason White
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
-
Okay, it's not that bad. I have recorded everything, I just haven't had a chance to finish the editing.
So, it will be out by the end of the weekend (April 3 at the latest).
Been crazy busy this month between basketball season for my sons ending, along with winter soccer seasons, and then spring soccer starting up. Add to that some face to face gaming, without which there would be no podcast  , and I haven't had much time to record and even less to edit.
So, be talking to you soon. (Specifically, by Sunday evening!)
By the way, this is no April Fool's joke, I had honestly forgotten about the "holiday" until the whole GeekDo thing.
-
Jason White
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
-
Jason flies solo again, and can't seem to shut up! Over TWO hours in this solo ep. Jason addresses feedback where he announces the first ever CONTEST for P2P! Then he covers the last month (plus some) of news that fit to print--er--say. He also gives a rundown of things to consider when rating components, along with some "anchor" games that are examples of each "dice-level" rating. After this comes a full review of the GMT block game Hellenes. He also talks over some recent gaming (meeting New Years resolutions so far!), spotlights a pre-order from MMP (along with begging for some of his favorites to be pre-ordered) and announces a new geeklist and poll.
Enjoy! Two hours is a lot, but who can ever have enough P2P??
Send contest entries to point2pointpodcast@gmail.com
Note: Affiliated Geeklist to appear on BGG on 2/27/11
direct download:
http://traffic.libsyn.com/point2point/Point_2_Point_44.mp3
poll for this ep:
| |
Your Answer |
|
Vote Percent |
Vote Count |
|
Plano 3701 boxes ONLY (or some other equivalent that you swear by), would prefer a vault
|
|
|
19.0% |
16
|
|
Ziplock baggies, big and small!
|
|
|
60.7% |
51
|
|
My 1985-era counter trays, available from Chessex
|
|
|
11.9% |
10
|
|
Store components? The game comes in a box, don't it?
|
|
|
8.3% |
7
|
|
Voters |
84 |
This poll is now closed.
84 answers
Closes: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:00 am
|
|
