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Publisher Diary: How to Run a Game Company Out of Your Closet

Greg Lam
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Boston
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It's not my day job, but I run a game publishing company. Pair-of-Dice Games was started in 2001 by me and a couple of my friends. My friends moved on after a few years while I kept the business going, and in the ten years I've been running Pair-of-Dice, I've self-published 12 games that run the gamut from simple abstract games (Knockabout, Warp 6) to a dexterity game involving chopsticks (Chopstick Dexterity MegaChallenge 3000) to a Euro game with the game board housed in a restaurant's menu cover (Restaurant Row).

The common thread between all of these games is that I make them by myself. When someone orders a game, I go into the Ikea storage bench which houses most of my game bits and dig out the right combination of dice, dyed wooden bits, screenprinted handkerchiefs, bowls, sauce dishes, and eating utensils that comprise one of the seven games that I currently offer.

Every once in a while, I realize that I'm running low on restaurant menu covers (which I order from a restaurant supply company), little wooden stars and spools (which I order from a company in Maine), or plastic bowls and sauce dishes (Dollar Store and Super 88 Asian Grocery store, respectively) and have to get more. How many games I sell is pretty much directly proportional to the effort I put into promoting them. Have I sent reviewers, podcasters and other board game cognoscenti review copies? Should I go to this or that convention to do game demos? Orders trickle in by ones and twos off my web site, or by one or two dozen if Boards and Bits or FunAgain calls. It's not the most efficient way to build a brand, I know, but it's one that lets me concentrate on the part of game design that I enjoy most: Making new games.

Chopstick Dexterity MegaChallenge 3000 – game pieces drying after being dyed

One question frequently asked is whether I've thought about selling my designs to larger companies for them to produce. The answer, of course, is yes. I have pitched designs to larger companies, but when you do so you have to get them to agree to produce the games and to undertake the various steps of getting a full production, which could take years to happen. The two cautionary tales of game design that I want to avoid are A) the people who have printed 10,000 or so copies of their original game and can sell only 100 or so, and B) the people who have their game stuck in "development hell" for excruciating years. By doing the games on my own in this just-in-time manner, I can make whatever game that I can figure out the logistics for and be happy whether I sell a dozen or a thousand games in a year.

To illustrate this, I recently got a phone call from Zev Shlasinger of Z-Man Games saying that he'd like to pick up Truffle Shuffle, a chocolate-making game that I pitched to him. I said yes, of course, since I had no plans on making Truffle Shuffle as nicely produced as it needs to be. The funny thing is that I pitched Truffle Shuffle to Zev so long ago I literally forgot that I had ever shown it to him, let alone gave him a copy of it.

Since I had pitched Truffle Shuffle to Zev, I conceived and produced two games, Restaurant Row and R.U.M.B.L. Will a Z-Man version of Truffle Shuffle ever find its way to your Friendly Local Game Store? I'll believe it when I see it, and Zev is one of the well-established good guys of the gaming world.

The idiosyncratic way I make games has consequences on the types of games I make. I have things I can do and things I can't do. I can buy dice and wood bits in bulk easily, and I can order silkscreen cloth boards so my early games such as Knockabout and Warp 6 used those. Later on, I found printer sticker sheets that would let me print small circular stickers that could be put onto wooden discs, and that let me include printed tokens for Marvin Marvel's Marvelous Marble Machine. The realization that a game board could be neatly housed in a restaurant's menu cover led me to create a game themed on running restaurants called Restaurant Row. Meeting fellow designer Steve Jones of Blue Panther – and learning of his machine which lasercuts custom wooden bits – allowed me to make a custom shaped hexagonal board with docks that precisely fit each edge for R.U.M.B.L., my new robot programming and fighting game. I've yet to find a way to print cheap and reliable playing cards for low print runs, so I simply avoid making games that use cards as components.

As well as having new capabilities, I also continually refine the games I make. Depending on when you obtained Knockabout or Warp 6, it might have been contained in a white mailing tube, a small green cardboard tube so small the components barely fit, a larger red tube, a plastic clamshell, or now a small set-up cardboard box. The boards might have been printed on felt, or vinyl, or now cotton handkerchiefs.

So that, pretty much, is an overview of how one person working alone can run his or her own games company out of a spare closet. I'm not saying that this is the best way to do this, or even that it should be done, but that it is possible to do. These days, it's easier to run a games company this way than it ever has been before.

Greg Lam
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J Chav
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Quite Fascinating! I enjoyed your perspective. Gives some insight into my plans for the future.
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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 6:47 am
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Gerald McDaniel
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Most interesting! Thanks for the neat description of your "other" job. Sounds like you have a very realistic outlook and reasonable expectations. Hope things continue to go well for you.
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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 7:25 am
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Samantha RD
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Interesting glimpse into a small games operation. Incidentally, I must say I really love the name: Chopstick Dexterity MegaChallenge 3000, though I suspect i'd be rather crap at it!

Good luck with truffle shuffle and your other future projects

PS: I now have the strangest hankering for little coloured wooden stars... maybe I should grab a copy
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  • Edited Sun Feb 6, 2011 9:36 am
  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 9:34 am
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Steve McIlhatton
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Awesome stuff... something to inspire all of us who have a game inside trying to get out
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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 11:07 am
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William Baldwin
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Restaurant Row is a great game. Unfortunately, not a lot of people know about it. I am really surprised no one has picked this up.

When I played games at Protospiel '09, Greg's games were a lot farther along than most and really did not need as much as most of the games I played. It seemed as though he was just tweaking final adjustments to some games that were already "there" as opposed to fixing the Titanic as it was sinking.

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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 3:24 pm
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Lee Valentine
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Greg, how do you handle insurance for your business? Standard business insurance for liability purposes (like a small child choking on one of your tokens) would probably swamp every sale you make if you are making them in the volume reported. Are you basically risking your house and going without insurance?

Cheers,
Lee
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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 4:02 pm
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W. Eric Martin
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hudarklord wrote:
Are you basically risking your house and going without insurance?


Wait a minute, I see where this is headed:

Greg – "I am completely without insurance or protection."

Lee – "That's a shame because my small child choked on one of your tokens."
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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 7:24 pm
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John Munsch
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I'm curious about the statement about playing cards. I've heard good things about ArtsCow decks and there are others like Superior POD as well. Is it the cost of the decks $4-5/deck or the actual quality that puts you off of using one of those services?

Or is it just that you would need to buy some in advance and have a small quantity on hand and thus a still higher investment in inventory.
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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 8:24 pm
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Greg Lam
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Thanks for the kind words, everyone.

John, mostly I mean the ability to have board games that include cards as a component, like event cards in a Eurogame. Adding $4-5 dollars per unit to the base price of a game is untenable for my purposes, even if they can provide them to me ten at a time. Of course, it's possible that I could do it if I were creative enough and researched it fully enough. To date, I haven't had the urge to do so. Also, I could consider reprising my card game Rasslefest which I had previous produced at the local Kinko's, if I were convinced that it'd be a good seller.

Lee, I'm afraid that insurance is one of the things I haven't researched. Hopefully Eric Martin's theory isn't true. I have my act together enough to pay taxes every year, but insurance is another matter.
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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 9:22 pm
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slam74 wrote:
Thanks for the kind words, everyone.

John, mostly I mean the ability to have board games that include cards as a component, like event cards in a Eurogame. Adding $4-5 dollars per unit to the base price of a game is untenable for my purposes, even if they can provide them to me ten at a time. Of course, it's possible that I could do it if I were creative enough and researched it fully enough. To date, I haven't had the urge to do so. Also, I could consider reprising my card game Rasslefest which I had previous produced at the local Kinko's, if I were convinced that it'd be a good seller.

Lee, I'm afraid that insurance is one of the things I haven't researched. Hopefully Eric Martin's theory isn't true. I have my act together enough to pay taxes every year, but insurance is another matter.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi .. Greg

Nello (brascogames)
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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 9:27 pm
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Lee Valentine
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Greg, a limited liability company certificate costs about $500 per year. Business insurance with about a million dollars of liability coverage can run about $600+ per year. So, it's over a $1000.00 per year to just make sure you don't lose your house if someone's kid chokes on a wooden game part.

That's why I have asked several times about how Games Crafter deals with liability issues. Every time I have tried to ask the owner never responded to me (or not that I've seen at least). With a company like that, it's unclear whether they are manufacturing, publishing, and distributing your game (severely limiting your liability), or whether they would contend that they merely manufacture and distribute things per your specification, making you the publisher. The latter would put your financial neck on the chopping block for liability concerns if someone chokes on one of their plastic parts.

On a completely different subject, re: putting labels on tokens. I've tried that too. If you do it on varnished tokens it works pretty well. Dyed tokens, however, can sometimes bleed through or rub off onto the face of the label. An early prototype for one of my games used dyed wooden disks and labels on them. After putting them in a bag for a couple of weeks I found that the labels were all black and smudgy. This was with well-dried tokens and Rit Die. I'd be eager to hear how Greg has handled this issue.

Lee
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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 9:55 pm
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Gavin Wynford-Jones
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hudarklord wrote:
Greg, a limited liability company certificate costs about $500 per year. Business insurance with about a million dollars of liability coverage can run about $600+ per year. So, it's over a $1000.00 per year to just make sure you don't lose your house if someone's kid chokes on a wooden game part.


Please forgive me for being naive here, but isn't it the parent or guardian's responsibility to ensure that such pieces don't get anywhere near any kid who may decide to try to ingest them? Isn't that why there are warnings of the "contains small pieces that may be ingested - choking hazard" kind on a lot of games?
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  • Posted Sun Feb 6, 2011 11:29 pm
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Lee Valentine
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gavingva wrote:
Please forgive me for being naive here, but isn't it the parent or guardian's responsibility to ensure that such pieces don't get anywhere near any kid who may decide to try to ingest them? Isn't that why there are warnings of the "contains small pieces that may be ingested - choking hazard" kind on a lot of games?


If your coverage covers legal fees for liability claims, then things are looking up for you. If you don't have coverage at all, then you could drown in legal fees even if you win. That's the problem -- in our system, you can be buried by legal fees in many cases even when you win the lawsuit. To even make the defense you claimed you'll still have to go to court.

What if you didn't think of putting the choking warning on a game you published through Game Crafter and you are named in a liability suit? You have no insurance of any kind and no kinds of personal limitations on liability.

As a PDF game manufacturer or a RPG book manufacturer your liability is pretty limited except against claims of intellectual property infringement. There are so many things that can go south with game parts, though.

Convention appearances can cause problems too, just at random. You go to Protospiel, one of your Megadexterity chopsticks falls on the ground. Someone slips on it and breaks their neck. Bang, lawsuit. It's rare. The question becomes whether the profits from your "out of your closet" company are worth the risk that you lose your car or your home or your life savings on a fluke happening.

At bigger cons I had to have proof of insurance just to exhibit. Hell, the contracts sometimes (e.g., GenCon) require you to pay around $100.00 to have the con listed as an "additional insured", though I'm not sure that everyone does this. So, to minimally promote your games at a handful of big game cons a year you might still be required to have insurance if you want to honor your contracts.

Lee
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  • Posted Mon Feb 7, 2011 12:49 am
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Totally misleading title! I was expecting a companion for "How to run a game company out of town", written for those of us with game company infestations.


Also: Helpful and informative. I did the same thing for a while, but with the Decktet and the back corner of my home office.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 7, 2011 2:14 am
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Greg Lam
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Lee, I'll look into the insurance issue. I haven't run into any issues thus far, but perhaps I've just been lucky. Running Pair-of-Dice has been a break even proposition, more or less, so a $500/year expense is not trivial. In a perfect world, I shouldn't have to worry about seemingly unlikely occurances such as someone slipping on a chopstick, but you never know. I exhibited at Origins once, and I presume their insurance was all part of their booth fee.

As for stickering, the tokens I've done thus far have been on undyed wood. The first game to sticker on dyed wood is the new game, R.U.M.B.L., so if there are any issues with it, I'll probably learn about it soon.

By the way, here's a link to a previous Geeklist I made about the games that I make: Behind the Bits: The Pair-of-Dice Games DVD Commentary Track
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  • Edited Mon Feb 7, 2011 6:15 am
  • Posted Mon Feb 7, 2011 5:08 am
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Doug Cooley
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pmagnus wrote:
Totally misleading title! I was expecting a companion for "How to run a game company out of town", written for those of us with game company infestations.


Also: Helpful and informative. I did the same thing for a while, but with the Decktet and the back corner of my home office.


Damn! You beat me to the punch!

I thought the same thing, though more along the lines of "guests who won't leave" than "dadgum varmints!"
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  • Posted Mon Feb 7, 2011 5:42 am
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hudarklord wrote:
to just make sure you don't lose your house if someone's kid chokes on a wooden game part.


I'm really puzzled at this 'risk' you mention here. (From the business side. From the kid's side, I can see where's the risk whistle )

Most boardgames carry an age rating, and a warning about choking hazards, etc.
If someone lets his kids play with stuff that is labelled as not suitable for kids, well, let darwin will have his way
If someone sues a chainsaw maker because his kids dies while playing with one, I don't expect the chainsawmaker's insurance to lift finger about it.

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  • Posted Mon Feb 7, 2011 12:17 pm
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hudarklord wrote:
Convention appearances can cause problems too, just at random. You go to Protospiel, one of your Megadexterity chopsticks falls on the ground. Someone slips on it and breaks their neck. Bang, lawsuit.


Yo do hve a particular talent for far-fetched scenarios, I must say surprise

In Europe, this'd be covered by the 'family risk insurance'. Bu then again, here most people wouldn't even think of suing in such a situation.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 7, 2011 12:21 pm
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ehanuise wrote:
hudarklord wrote:
to just make sure you don't lose your house if someone's kid chokes on a wooden game part.


I'm really puzzled at this 'risk' you mention here. (From the business side. From the kid's side, I can see where's the risk whistle )

Most boardgames carry an age rating, and a warning about choking hazards, etc.
If someone lets his kids play with stuff that is labelled as not suitable for kids, well, let darwin will have his way
If someone sues a chainsaw maker because his kids dies while playing with one, I don't expect the chainsawmaker's insurance to lift finger about it.

You clearly don't know how things work in the US. We, as a nation, excel at finding clever new ways to sue everyone. Breaking in somewhere and injure yourself on their skylight? You can sue.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 7, 2011 1:54 pm
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I've used Artscow and have caught them on a free shipping 'try us out' deal for something like $4 per 54 card deck.

Since you get 54 cards regardless of how you design them you can order as few or as many as you need. You have complete control over each side of each card.

I was surprised by the quality. They are just a little thinner than a basic bicycle playing card and look just as sharp.

It takes work to create the graphic design but the end product is really professional. Also, they include a clear plastic case for each deck.

Artscow.com - Highly recommended.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 7, 2011 6:36 pm
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cold_fuzion wrote:
You clearly don't know how things work in the US. We, as a nation, excel at finding clever new ways to sue everyone.


Definitely do not sell any of your games to Dennis Kucinich, although I would never accuse him of being "clever". shake

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/28/dennis-kucinich-oli...
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  • Posted Tue Feb 8, 2011 1:09 am
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Great read and inspiring.
Thanks
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  • Posted Tue Feb 8, 2011 5:19 am
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Gerald McDaniel
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cold_fuzion wrote:
ehanuise wrote:
hudarklord wrote:
to just make sure you don't lose your house if someone's kid chokes on a wooden game part.


I'm really puzzled at this 'risk' you mention here. (From the business side. From the kid's side, I can see where's the risk whistle )

Most boardgames carry an age rating, and a warning about choking hazards, etc.
If someone lets his kids play with stuff that is labelled as not suitable for kids, well, let darwin will have his way
If someone sues a chainsaw maker because his kids dies while playing with one, I don't expect the chainsawmaker's insurance to lift finger about it.

You clearly don't know how things work in the US. We, as a nation, excel at finding clever new ways to sue everyone. Breaking in somewhere and injure yourself on their skylight? You can sue.


Americans live in a very litigious society. Anyone can sue almost anyone else for almost any reason. It doesn't have to be logical or make sense. You just have to have some money for an attorney, and there are plenty of them available to file frivolous suits at the drop of a hat. What's really crazy is that sometimes the silliest suits are decided in favor of the plaintiff. I have carried a million dollar personal liability policy for many years, beginning when my oldest child began driving, because a friend of mine almost lost his house and savings when his son was involved in a driving accident. Lesson learned.

When you operate any kind of business, you are running a higher risk of being sued than the average person. People generally think that every business has a bottomless pit of money which they can tap through a lawsuit. This even applies to a one-person small business run from a "closet." It's important to consider, if you want to run a business in America.
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  • Posted Tue Feb 8, 2011 7:15 am
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re: litigation/insurance Greg should make sure he operates his business as an LLC or S Corp so that what he is risking is NOT his home. Running your small business as a corp has many other benefits depending on your work situation (and your spouse's) but insulating the proprietor's assets from the business' assets is one of the biggest.
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  • Posted Tue Feb 8, 2011 11:51 am
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gamesgrandpa wrote:
Americans live in a very litigious society. Anyone can sue almost anyone else for almost any reason. It doesn't have to be logical or make sense. You just have to have some money for an attorney, and there are plenty of them available to file frivolous suits at the drop of a hat. What's really crazy is that sometimes the silliest suits are decided in favor of the plaintiff. I have carried a million dollar personal liability policy for many years, beginning when my oldest child began driving, because a friend of mine almost lost his house and savings when his son was involved in a driving accident. Lesson learned.

When you operate any kind of business, you are running a higher risk of being sued than the average person. People generally think that every business has a bottomless pit of money which they can tap through a lawsuit. This even applies to a one-person small business run from a "closet." It's important to consider, if you want to run a business in America.


Good grief. Now I can see, many years after the advice was given, why my father always said "Never do business with America. Too many lawyers."
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  • Posted Tue Feb 8, 2011 12:25 pm
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Daniel Cassar
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Thank you for sharing your experiences with us G-Slam! Was an interesting read!
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  • Posted Tue Feb 8, 2011 1:25 pm
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Jordan Stewart
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Love these DIY stories. Very cool, and inspiring.
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  • Posted Tue Feb 8, 2011 2:36 pm
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Tim Harrison
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hudarklord wrote:
Greg, a limited liability company certificate costs about $500 per year.


What state do you live in?

I paid a one-time fee of $125 in Ohio to form an LLC.

The only annual fee I pay the government is $25 for a Vendor's License.
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  • Posted Tue Feb 8, 2011 11:38 pm
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David Etherton
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
hudarklord wrote:
Greg, a limited liability company certificate costs about $500 per year.


What state do you live in?

I paid a one-time fee of $125 in Ohio to form an LLC.

The only annual fee I pay the government is $25 for a Vendor's License.


Wow. According to the California Franchise Tax Board:

"The LLC will be taxed at the corporate tax rate of 8.84 percent and will be subject to a minimum tax of $800."
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  • Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011 12:38 am
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Nicholas Vitek
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Luckily you can form an LLC in any state without actually living there.

I believe Deleware cost me 250 and then some small tax every year.
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  • Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011 1:54 am
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hudarklord wrote:
gavingva wrote:
Please forgive me for being naive here, but isn't it the parent or guardian's responsibility to ensure that such pieces don't get anywhere near any kid who may decide to try to ingest them? Isn't that why there are warnings of the "contains small pieces that may be ingested - choking hazard" kind on a lot of games?


If your coverage covers legal fees for liability claims, then things are looking up for you. If you don't have coverage at all, then you could drown in legal fees even if you win. That's the problem -- in our system, you can be buried by legal fees in many cases even when you win the lawsuit. To even make the defense you claimed you'll still have to go to court.


As Lee stated, Legal systems differ from country to country, as do the costs involved.

I don't know how that is sorted in France, in Australia court costs for spurious cases (e.g. choking hazard warning clearly on packaging but child is given game and chokes) go to the accusor.

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  • Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011 2:07 am
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etherton wrote:
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
hudarklord wrote:
Greg, a limited liability company certificate costs about $500 per year.


What state do you live in?

I paid a one-time fee of $125 in Ohio to form an LLC.

The only annual fee I pay the government is $25 for a Vendor's License.


Wow. According to the California Franchise Tax Board:

"The LLC will be taxed at the corporate tax rate of 8.84 percent and will be subject to a minimum tax of $800."


I didn't think he was including taxes. He implied to me that it was $500 a year just for the certificate.

Anyway, yes I pay income tax as well, but there is no minimum.
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  • Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011 5:08 am
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Gavin Wynford-Jones
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Damjon wrote:
As Lee stated, Legal systems differ from country to country, as do the costs involved.

I don't know how that is sorted in France, in Australia court costs for spurious cases (e.g. choking hazard warning clearly on packaging but child is given game and chokes) go to the accusor.


In France, as in the UK, the loser generally pays all costs. (I think this may well be true of most of Europe, in fact.)
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  • Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:51 am
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gamesgrandpa wrote:
cold_fuzion wrote:
ehanuise wrote:
hudarklord wrote:
to just make sure you don't lose your house if someone's kid chokes on a wooden game part.


I'm really puzzled at this 'risk' you mention here. (From the business side. From the kid's side, I can see where's the risk whistle )

Most boardgames carry an age rating, and a warning about choking hazards, etc.
If someone lets his kids play with stuff that is labelled as not suitable for kids, well, let darwin will have his way
If someone sues a chainsaw maker because his kids dies while playing with one, I don't expect the chainsawmaker's insurance to lift finger about it.

You clearly don't know how things work in the US. We, as a nation, excel at finding clever new ways to sue everyone. Breaking in somewhere and injure yourself on their skylight? You can sue.


Americans live in a very litigious society. Anyone can sue almost anyone else for almost any reason. It doesn't have to be logical or make sense. You just have to have some money for an attorney, and there are plenty of them available to file frivolous suits at the drop of a hat. What's really crazy is that sometimes the silliest suits are decided in favor of the plaintiff. I have carried a million dollar personal liability policy for many years, beginning when my oldest child began driving, because a friend of mine almost lost his house and savings when his son was involved in a driving accident. Lesson learned.

When you operate any kind of business, you are running a higher risk of being sued than the average person. People generally think that every business has a bottomless pit of money which they can tap through a lawsuit. This even applies to a one-person small business run from a "closet." It's important to consider, if you want to run a business in America.


Is there a way on the purchase of the game for the seller to have the buyer sign a document that turns all liability of the game from the seller to the buyer. Kind of a "own at your own risk" type of thing? I know when I do other dangerous things like thrill rides at a theme park or flying on a C-130 for a media event that I had to sign away all liability.
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  • Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011 2:50 pm
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Abraham Drucker
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
etherton wrote:
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
hudarklord wrote:
Greg, a limited liability company certificate costs about $500 per year.


What state do you live in?

I paid a one-time fee of $125 in Ohio to form an LLC.

The only annual fee I pay the government is $25 for a Vendor's License.


Wow. According to the California Franchise Tax Board:

"The LLC will be taxed at the corporate tax rate of 8.84 percent and will be subject to a minimum tax of $800."


I didn't think he was including taxes. He implied to me that it was $500 a year just for the certificate.

Anyway, yes I pay income tax as well, but there is no minimum.


Again that depends on the state. In California, it's $70 to register and then 700 or so (or 800) minimum per year to keep it up even if you have $0 in revenue. So even though that is listed as a 'tax' it's bascially a fee to keep the certificate. Other states, such as Nevada are MUCH cheaper. California likes to get you coming and going.
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  • Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011 3:25 pm
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Lee Valentine
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Nich wrote:
Luckily you can form an LLC in any state without actually living there.


The rules on LLC filings vary from state to state. Also, if you don't live in the state you may need a "registered agent" paid for in that state for official legal mailings (like court summons, IRS docs, etc.).

Lee
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  • Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011 6:08 pm
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Joseph Comings
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Videous_E wrote:

Is there a way on the purchase of the game for the seller to have the buyer sign a document that turns all liability of the game from the seller to the buyer. Kind of a "own at your own risk" type of thing? I know when I do other dangerous things like thrill rides at a theme park or flying on a C-130 for a media event that I had to sign away all liability.


Any thoughts on that? Or am I out in left field?
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  • Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011 8:39 pm
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Hello Greg!

Nice to see you're still at it! I still bring Knockabout to the table from time to time - especially when going for a weekend getaway with my wife. It's such a nice game to put in my pocket and bring out in the bar or cafe table. I hope Zev will bring your other design towards the massmarket - would be cool to find one of your games at Spiel in Essen!

Thanks for your work so far - and good luck with future projetcs!
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  • Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011 9:05 pm
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Perhaps I'm naive, but when I'm selling a 100 games a year, it seems to me that my odds of getting sued can't be that much more than they already are from my one-hour round-trip drive to work, having neighbors, and posting in public forums.

With an LLC license, an LLC operating agreement, and basic governance forms, the chances of losing more than the few thousand dollars I've invested in the business are astronomically low.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:13 am
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Lee Valentine
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:

Perhaps I'm naive, but when I'm selling a 100 games a year, it seems to me that my odds of getting sued can't be that much more than they already are from my one-hour round-trip drive to work


Do you have automobile insurance to protect against injuries that you might cause injury to someone else? Why? If you weren't legally required to have insurance to protect against injuring others with your car would you carry it anyway?

If you mishandle anything about your LLC's veil of protection then insurance could be very useful, depending on your policy. LLC protection is, however, the first step in the right direction, and something that Greg didn't mention in his initial post. It is, however, expensive enough that in some states it could eat your profits if you are selling just 100 games a year.

I personally wonder how a basic business policy would impact coverage from CPSIA violations or whether you'd need errors and omissions coverage (which can be grossly expensive).

In the end, the question of whether or not to file for an LLC and/or take out insurance are risk management questions. What's your comfort level? My odds are low that my condo will get burglarized or that a stranger will slip and fall but I still have condo insurance.

Lee
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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:23 am
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hudarklord wrote:
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:

Perhaps I'm naive, but when I'm selling a 100 games a year, it seems to me that my odds of getting sued can't be that much more than they already are from my one-hour round-trip drive to work


Do you have automobile insurance to protect against injuries that you might cause injury to someone else? Why? If you weren't legally required to have insurance to protect against injuring others with your car would you carry it anyway?


Yes, because I spend an hour or more driving every day.

Quote:
If you mishandle anything about your LLC's veil of protection then insurance could be very useful, depending on your policy. LLC protection is, however, the first step in the right direction, and something that Greg didn't mention in his initial post. It is, however, expensive enough that in some states it could eat your profits if you are selling just 100 games a year.


Expensive in some states, not in mine.

Quote:
I personally wonder how a basic business policy would impact coverage from CPSIA violations or whether you'd need errors and omissions coverage (which can be grossly expensive).


I do not make children's products. All of my products are clearly marketed towards adults, are sold only to adults, and are even labeled for persons 14 and older.

Quote:
In the end, the question of whether or not to file for an LLC and/or take out insurance are risk management questions. What's your comfort level? My odds are low that my condo will get burglarized or that a stranger will slip and fall but I still have condo insurance.


Perhaps in part because there is no limit to your liability? Quite the opposite of a *limited* liability company?

But you're right, it all depends on your level of comfort.

Do you have business insurance for Veritas Games?

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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:36 am
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Lee Valentine
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:


Perhaps in part because there is no limit to your liability? Quite the opposite of a *limited* liability company?


Do you have business insurance for Veritas Games?



As I said, those limits aren't absolute -- if you accidentally mishandle the LLC then you can open yourself to personal accountability (the protection gets lifted). Insurance can be useful there.

Veritas Games Company used to be an LLC. It had all sorts of insurance when we sold Powerstorm. When our art license for Powerstorm ran out, we closed the LLC. We had inventory protection, liability, errors and omissions, etc. Ugh. So expensive (particularly E&O).

I opened a sole proprietorship company and bought the trademarks and the Powerstorm IP. On paper, it's a completely different company -- I didn't buy out the LLC, it closed its doors and I bought the name and some rules. As a sole proprietor I intentionally haven't sold a single physical game and only sell PDF products right now. I have prototyped some games, but beyond distributing them to friends, I don't distribute most of the physical copies for liability reasons.

I have about 4 more PDF games that I need to layout and then upload to RPGNow when I have time. I'm only going to sell my physical games when the total sales volume annually looks like it's enough for LLC filings plus business insurance plus a marketing budget. I determined that the deeper your catalog, it becomes relatively cheaper to go to big cons and trade shows. If you sell 100 units of one product it's a lot different than selling 50 units of 10 products at the con. So, I'll probably dive into the deep end of the pool on physical game sales again when I've saved or raised enough money to publish several games simultaneously.

Right now I'm trying to port some of my games over to portable phones and tablets. Insurance is still needed, but the volumes may be easier to hit.

I think running a company out of your closet and selling games with bits is risky without insurance, but it's too much risk without an LLC or a corporation. You have an LLC and decent protection. Greg didn't even initially address the LLC. That's a lot of risk for relatively little financial reward (compared to litigation).

For those with the will, make some money and sell some games. Chances are nothing will happen even without protections.

Lee
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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:12 am
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hudarklord wrote:
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:


Perhaps in part because there is no limit to your liability? Quite the opposite of a *limited* liability company?


Do you have business insurance for Veritas Games?



As I said, those limits aren't absolute -- if you accidentally mishandle the LLC then you can open yourself to personal accountability (the protection gets lifted). Insurance can be useful there.

Veritas Games Company used to be an LLC. It had all sorts of insurance when we sold Powerstorm. When our art license for Powerstorm ran out, we closed the LLC. We had inventory protection, liability, errors and omissions, etc. Ugh. So expensive (particularly E&O).

I opened a sole proprietorship company and bought the trademarks and the Powerstorm IP. On paper, it's a completely different company -- I didn't buy out the LLC, it closed its doors and I bought the name and some rules. As a sole proprietor I intentionally haven't sold a single physical game and only sell PDF products right now. I have prototyped some games, but beyond distributing them to friends, I don't distribute most of the physical copies for liability reasons.

I have about 4 more PDF games that I need to layout and then upload to RPGNow when I have time. I'm only going to sell my physical games when the total sales volume annually looks like it's enough for LLC filings plus business insurance plus a marketing budget. I determined that the deeper your catalog, it becomes relatively cheaper to go to big cons and trade shows. If you sell 100 units of one product it's a lot different than selling 50 units of 10 products at the con. So, I'll probably dive into the deep end of the pool on physical game sales again when I've saved or raised enough money to publish several games simultaneously.

Right now I'm trying to port some of my games over to portable phones and tablets. Insurance is still needed, but the volumes may be easier to hit.

I think running a company out of your closet and selling games with bits is risky without insurance, but it's too much risk without an LLC or a corporation. You have an LLC and decent protection. Greg didn't even initially address the LLC. That's a lot of risk for relatively little financial reward (compared to litigation).

For those with the will, make some money and sell some games. Chances are nothing will happen even without protections.

Lee


Couldn't a PDF file get a virus and destroy someone's computer?

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=pdf+virus

Why couldn't that person sue you? Seems just as likely as someone suing for choking on some playing cards.


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  • Edited Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:29 am
  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:28 am
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Lee Valentine
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:

Couldn't a PDF file get a virus and destroy someone's computer?

Why couldn't that person sue you? Seems just as likely as someone suing for choking on some playing cards.


Oh, they could sue me, but likely in small claims court where I might not even need to pay for legal representation. There's no reasonable threat of loss of life, limb, or eye from a PDF. The risk of net loss seems exceedingly low with PDF distribution, particularly on the scale that I'm working at.

Again, were I expecting a high volume of sales by translating my game to an iPad application or something, then I would immediately get an LLC and business insurance. Even if they just drag me into small claims court, if 1000 people did it, it could be financially crippling.

When we had an LLC and were distributing Powerstorm we thought it unlikely that someone would choke on a playing card. I suppose that foil wrappers could have been a hazard. We were more concerned about trip and fall in a trade show booth or destruction of our inventory. Given the number of people swarming a booth at GenCon, trip and fall is an entirely reasonable concern. We were also test marketing board games with small parts -- we were concerned about product liability there because of small parts. Those were the primary reasons the LLC carried business insurance beyond contractual obligations. We carried errors and omissions insurance primarily for contractual reasons, as it has exceptionally limited value given what we were doing (maybe against IP infringement).

Lee
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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:17 pm
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hudarklord wrote:
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:

Couldn't a PDF file get a virus and destroy someone's computer?

Why couldn't that person sue you? Seems just as likely as someone suing for choking on some playing cards.


Oh, they could sue me, but likely in small claims court where I might not even need to pay for legal representation. There's no reasonable threat of loss of life, limb, or eye from a PDF. The risk of net loss seems exceedingly low with PDF distribution, particularly on the scale that I'm working at.

Again, were I expecting a high volume of sales by translating my game to an iPad application or something, then I would immediately get an LLC and business insurance. Even if they just drag me into small claims court, if 1000 people did it, it could be financially crippling.

When we had an LLC and were distributing Powerstorm we thought it unlikely that someone would choke on a playing card. I suppose that foil wrappers could have been a hazard. We were more concerned about trip and fall in a trade show booth or destruction of our inventory. Given the number of people swarming a booth at GenCon, trip and fall is an entirely reasonable concern. We were also test marketing board games with small parts -- we were concerned about product liability there because of small parts. Those were the primary reasons the LLC carried business insurance beyond contractual obligations. We carried errors and omissions insurance primarily for contractual reasons, as it has exceptionally limited value given what we were doing (maybe against IP infringement).

Lee


I see. FWLIW, I don't exhibit at cons. I sell direct to the buyers, and never go through distributors.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:51 pm
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Way to turn a post that I really enjoyed into something that makes me furious.

At parties do you go around to all the guests and make sure they have whatever insurance you can think of? "You have a dog? Geez, I hope you got extra insurance in case he poops on a sidewalk and causes a slip and fall. I don't have a dog for just this reason."
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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:59 pm
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Hey everyone. I wanted to state for the record that I'm taking what Lee has said under advisement to see that if his advice is appropriate for my Pair-of-Dice. As my initial post should make clear, I sort of do things as needed and thinking about things like insurance and incorporation has never come up before. Perhaps I've gotten away with doing something in a needlessly hazardous way. As with all insurance, when you realize that you need it it's often too late to get it. Lee is only the messenger in this case, and whether I take him up on his advice or not I thank him for bringing a potential problem to my attention.

That said, I'm not terribly interested in discussing these issues further on this blog post. If everyone else wants to, that's fine but I'll stay out of it.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:14 pm
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It sounds like that topic would be best left to an actual forum thread.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:19 pm
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Videous_E wrote:
Videous_E wrote:

Is there a way on the purchase of the game for the seller to have the buyer sign a document that turns all liability of the game from the seller to the buyer. Kind of a "own at your own risk" type of thing? I know when I do other dangerous things like thrill rides at a theme park or flying on a C-130 for a media event that I had to sign away all liability.


Any thoughts on that? Or am I out in left field?


dang... was really hoping someone would answer that question... or at the very least pick up on the "when I do other dangerous things..." Guess my posts are just so sneaky everyone misses them. ninjaninja
 
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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:26 pm
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Put me down as a big fan of Chopstick Dexterity MegaChallenge 3000.

I think I got a review copy once (disclaimer) but it is a very entertaining game. Unfortunately, I usually end up playing over on " the dark side" (see rules for explanation).
 
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  • Posted Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:54 pm
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ze_stom wrote:

Again that depends on the state. In California, it's $70 to register and then 700 or so (or 800) minimum per year to keep it up even if you have $0 in revenue. So even though that is listed as a 'tax' it's bascially a fee to keep the certificate. Other states, such as Nevada are MUCH cheaper. California likes to get you coming and going.


Be very careful. We incorporated in NV (different reasons why we did so), and we are a foreign corporation in CA (because we have a nexus there). We file returns for both CA ($800 minimum tax & foreign corporation fees) plus NV (no tax, but $250 in corporation fees & business license).

Don't forget your County & City business licenses too.

It adds up really quickly.
 
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  • Posted Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:05 pm
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I'm concerned about the amount of legal chatter going on here. So, I'll provide you all the best advice that I can, bearing in mind that nothing I say here should be construed in any way as legal advice.

Talk to a lawyer. Preferrably do so in person. Ideally someone with some experience with incorporation. If at all possible someone who will do a free consultation. Take a recommendation from a friend who is an attorney if you can but don't use a friend if you value your friendship.

Much of what Lee has said in this thread has value but it has been written, in my opinion, in a way that is overly frightening. While loss of assests due to a lawsuit is a possible issue. It is wildly inappropriate to even casually imply that someone could lose significant quantities of personal assets without providing good sound recommendations as to a course of action, and the only course of action you should take when talking about dealing with our legal system is seek the assistance of a licensed attorney.

You may note in that last sentence that I did not say 'competent' attorney. Seeking the advice of a licensed attorney, and ideally getting that advice in writing, is in itself a level of protection. If you rely upon the advice of a licensed attorney and it is proven to be incompetent then you can mitigate consequences in that way. This is obviously not ideal and should not be relied upon, but it's why the first step should absolutely to be to seek the advice of a licensed attorney.

I would like to reiterate that nothing I've said should be construed as legal advice.

Vox

P.S. Sorry to beat the dead horse Greg. As someone with some professional training in the legal field I'm always concerned when I hear what sounds like legal advice.
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  • Posted Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:00 pm
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Steven De Toni
New Zealand

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Nice insightful essay on your experience in publishing games. Hope you make it into the big time, and get a professional release.

Clearly, games for you is not about profit, but more about sharing. The time spent development games, building pieces, testing, and sending games out-way any monetary profit your likely to make. Keep it up...

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  • Posted Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:06 am
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